Asylum seekers/Refugees Calais

[Fulmar]

I was not going to post again and this is my last but I agree 100% with the article in the Grauniad.
The situation with the lorry drivers is horrendous and awful and unfair- but that's the UK government's fault, going after the wrong people, as usual.

[cptdodger]

I was not going to post again and this is my last but I agree 100% with the article in the Grauniad.
The situation with the lorry drivers is horrendous and awful and unfair- but that's the UK government's fault, going after the wrong people, as usual.

And that was the point I was trying to get across, that is why people are blaming the Government.

[Fulmar]

On the radio 4 Sunday programme this morning, there was a report from Eritrea- a country with a repressive regime that matches North Korea in it's control freakery and repression. Most of the 7 million inhabitants are christians and the regime clearly fears this as many are imprisoned and tortured for long periods of time.
Eritreans make up many of those in Calais just now and one of the things that they have done in that squalid camp is to construct a 'church' where they hold services each and every day. Among their number is a 17 year old lad. The reporter asked him why he had scars on his feet and he replied that while in prison, he'd had lit cigarettes applied to them. Why was he in prison? Because of his Christian faith. He has relatives living (he said happily), in London and he wishes to join them. So why is the lad who is a victim of torture not allowed to come in and why is it considered an acceptable solution to send him back 'home' to a country that may very well kill him.
David Cameron professes to be a Christian so it is about time that he shows that he is one. Christ went among the marginalised, the persecuted and the 'down and outs', the refugees and those that every one else despised- those are the people that He sought out and helped.
A bishop (I can't remember who) has said that the attitudes that are being fostered by the 'hard line' approach of European governments is encouraging racism. I agree.
I was challenged on here to take someone in. Well, I would, without hesitation if I could but he or she has to be allowed into this country first. In my book, it's called being a human being and doing to others as you would have them do to you in your hour of need.

[BetterTogether]

Picking the case of one person to justify the unrelenting influx of people who choose not to go through official channels to get into this country doesn't really do justice to the issue.

Only today we have the case of a driver found with Vietnamese in the back of his lorry on the M1 the war there finished decades ago.

Eritrea doesn't really equate to North Korea in the totalitarian states league either also it's not infrequent for people to lie about their reasons to enter the country, the vast majority who I may add are paying people smugglers are economic migrants not fleeing oppression but hoping to jump the channel to find a nice country where there aren't any ID cards to stop them working and a healthy black economy to ease their new lives.

Seems that most of the wars and armed struggles around the world at this moment in time are in the name of one religion in one way or other, not for the first time in History either, seems to me if we want more peace in this world maybe outlawing religion would be a way to go, seems to bring more disharmony and evil into the world than it cures.

[cptdodger]

The situation with the lorry drivers is horrendous and awful and unfair-

So why is the lad who is a victim of torture not allowed to come in and why is it considered an acceptable solution to send him back 'home' to a country that may very well kill him.

In my book, it's called being a human being and doing to others as you would have them do to you in your hour of need.

I can guarantee you, every single one of these people trying to gain entry into Britain illegally will say the same thing, true or not. Does that give them the right to threaten lorry drivers with any weapon they can get their hands on, and place them in fear of their lives ? The knock on affect of this is people losing their business and putting people out of work.

This is from The John O Groats Journal - "William Calder SNR, said the problems at the French port had cost Scrabster Seafoods over two thirds of its business."

[Alrock]

Picking the case of one person to justify the unrelenting influx of people who choose not to go through official channels to get into this country doesn't really do justice to the issue.

Only today we have the case of a driver found with Vietnamese in the back of his lorry on the M1 the war there finished decades ago.

Eritrea doesn't really equate to North Korea in the totalitarian states league either also it's not infrequent for people to lie about their reasons to enter the country, the vast majority who I may add are paying people smugglers are economic migrants not fleeing oppression but hoping to jump the channel to find a nice country where there aren't any ID cards to stop them working and a healthy black economy to ease their new lives.

Seems that most of the wars and armed struggles around the world at this moment in time are in the name of one religion in one way or other, not for the first time in History either, seems to me if we want more peace in this world maybe outlawing religion would be a way to go, seems to bring more disharmony and evil into the world than it cures.

As much as it pains me I do have to agree with you on this one, especially your last paragraph...

[theone]

Seems that most of the wars and armed struggles around the world at this moment in time are in the name of one religion in one way or other, not for the first time in History either, seems to me if we want more peace in this world maybe outlawing religion would be a way to go, seems to bring more disharmony and evil into the world than it cures.

I'm not convinced that outlawing religion is the way forward.

But removing it from law yes.

Religious views should be treated with the same respect as political ones, and should receive no more support or status.

A christian should have no more right, nor receive no more publicity, for disagreeing with the views of a Muslim than a conservative should for disagreeing with a communist.

Unfortunately current society and acceptance of taboos as a normal get out clause on difficult issues will prevent progress here.

[BetterTogether]

I'm off the feeling given all the problems and special treatments various religious factions seemed to consider their rights in today's modern society. It's about time State and Religion where finally fully separated if parents wish to indoctrinate their children that's fine but it should be firmly left out of School Curriculums, the legal and judicial processes and especially out of medical systems. That way there can be no accusations of one faction getting special treatment over another and it stops discrimination. There should also be an end to religious schools bringing them all under state control to end some of the more outlandish behaviours within some of them.

[cptdodger]

I'm off the feeling given all the problems and special treatments various religious factions seemed to consider their rights in today's modern society. It's about time State and Religion where finally fully separated if parents wish to indoctrinate their children that's fine but it should be firmly left out of School Curriculums, the legal and judicial processes and especially out of medical systems. That way there can be no accusations of one faction getting special treatment over another and it stops discrimination. There should also be an end to religious schools bringing them all under state control to end some of the more outlandish behaviours within some of them.

Totally agree, when my children were younger they could have gone to a Catholic School two doors along from us. I refused, nothing against Catholics, but I am against any form of separatism, especially in schools. You just have to look at Northern Ireland to see the absolute damage religion has caused. "You can't play with them because they are Catholic/Protestant, you can't marry them because they are Catholic/Protestant" and on it goes, for generations. It's just wrong.

[Alrock]

...if parents wish to indoctrinate their children that's fine but it should be firmly left out of School Curriculums.

Indoctrination of children into anything is wrong, no matter who's doing the indoctrinating.

[BetterTogether]

Indoctrination of children into anything is wrong, no matter who's doing the indoctrinating.

I tend to agree but you'd have an awful lot of bother from parents who like to take their wee ones to political rallies and such like it all adds up to the same thing but the state should have no part in peddling Bronze Age superstitions.

[Alrock]

I tend to agree but you'd have an awful lot of bother from parents who like to take their wee ones to political rallies and such like it all adds up to the same thing but the state should have no part in peddling Bronze Age superstitions.

So what you should have said was...

...if parents wish to indoctrinate their children then that's unfortunately unavoidable but it should be firmly left out of School Curriculums.

Nothing fine about it.

[BetterTogether]

So what you should have said was......if parents wish to indoctrinate their children then that's unfortunately unavoidable but it should be firmly left out of School Curriculums.Nothing fine about it.

I can accept that !

But if the named person scheme goes ahead who knows what might happen, might parent be hauled up for not teaching their children about superstitions !

[Fulmar]

Eritrea doesn't really equate to North Korea in the totalitarian states league either also it's not infrequent for people to lie about their reasons to enter the country, the vast majority who I may add are paying people smugglers are economic migrants not fleeing oppression but hoping to jump the channel to find a nice country where there aren't any ID cards to stop them working and a healthy black economy to ease their new lives.

This below was reported in the Guardian recently.
A recent UN report condemned Eritrea’s government for its “systematic, widespread and gross human rights violations,” and accused the dictatorship of torturing its citizens.
The country has a vast standing army due to a conscription system that often amounts to little more than slavery, from which thousands have fled.
The regime has arrested 138 believers and church leaders as part of a crackdown on “non-traditional” Christian communities, according to the charity Open Doors.
Mr Kesete’s congregation is mainly composed of migrants from Eritrea and Ethiopia. Britain last year suspended most of a £27 million aid programme to Ethiopia’s police force amid allegations of torture, rape and murder by the country’s regime.

How sad to read of your negative attitudes towards people who hold a religious faith. The migrants in Calais evidently don't share your views and I would respectfully urge you too look at some of the images and accounts from the migrants church in the camp at Calais. A group of church folk from Folkestone have been visiting the Calais migrants for the last 14 years, taking food and books and other necessities with them and offering support- because that is what Christians do.

[cptdodger]

because that is what Christians do.

Is this also what Christians do ? Is this acceptable if it is Christians doing it ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ed-Calais.html

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/583...r-lives-Calais

[BetterTogether]

[COLOR=#333333]This below was reported in the Guardian recently.How sad to read of your negative attitudes towards people who hold a religious faith. The migrants in Calais evidently don't share your views and I would respectfully urge you too look at some of the images and accounts from the migrants church in the camp at Calais. A group of church folk from Folkestone have been visiting the Calais migrants for the last 14 years, taking food and books and other necessities with them and offering support- because that is what Christians do.

Or you could of just as easily written.


A group of church folk from Folkestone have been visiting the Calais migrants for the last 14 years, taking food and other necessities with them offering support for their illegal activities and encouragement to exacerbate the problem encouraging more to follow. Because that is what Christians do !

It should also be noted that a large percentage of those present in and around the Calais area seeking entrance to the UK are not Christian but of other faiths most of which are abrahamic and all of which are responsible for centuries of war and death across various continents. So excuse my lack of tolerance for a stone/Bronze Age belief system with no real proof system behind it, that has changed like the wind over the centuries to make itself fit in with the given society and provided more harm than good overall.

[Fulmar]

Well, by definition, any migrant who acted in the way you describe would not be a christian!
To be honest, I find your attitudes unbelievable. There you were, getting all hot under the collar about the racism of 'Gollygate' and yet you are evidently quite happy with the world situation; content to condemn thousands to hardship and death in the so-called 'third world ' that is getting too close for comfort to you now and to use the term 'economic migrant' to justify it in your own mind, 'well that's alright then'. Never mind that Europe and the West has grown fat on the wealth of the countries from which these poor people are fleeing; never mind the fact that we have obscenely too much in the west and the inequality is staggering. We squander food, we are wasteful, our practices and industries are causing the climate change from which the third world suffers- I could go on and on. So, some of the 'economic migrants' (and very many are not just that) decide that perhaps it is time that they had a chance at some of the good things that we enjoy and have enjoyed for so long and risk their lives for the chance of it- and they just happen to be 'other' than us. So put up the barricades and the razor wire and keep them all out. Treat them as less than human beings, even though we could easily help some of them and it would not even touch the sides. We are a WEALTHY country, however much folk complain, that is the truth. The situation with this nowhere near as bad as it was, for example after the second world war with millions of displaced and desperate people- and yet we managed because we had a better mindset.
Why were you not shouting when all the economic migrants came in from Poland and Romania? Were you wagging your finger, when many young folk went over from Ireland seeking work abroad in recent years due to collapse of the Irish economy? Was it because they were not quite so 'other' than us so you were able to say, well good luck to them?
Most of the people in Calais state that they want to come in and find work. Others, especially those from Syria, want to return home one day when their country is no longer a war-torn hell hole- a situation to which we, in the wider sense, have contributed.
I am not posting on this topic any longer. I know what I think and it is poles apart from your view so that is that.
It is entirely possible that sometime in the future, our descendants might be the desperate people who are fleeing and looking for help from others. It is a case of being able to imagine that and showing some humanity. End of.

[cptdodger]

Well, by definition, any migrant who acted in the way you describe would not be a christian!

Of course not, silly me they would never do any such thing, would they?. I suppose Catholics (IRA) just conveniently forgot they were Christians when they were blowing people (including me) sky high ?

I never called them "economic migrants" I am quite happy for anybody to enter this country legally.

You're quite right, we are poles apart in our views, I think it is absolutely shocking British lorry drivers, as I pointed out, are in fear of their lives and being threatened and attacked.

I find it shocking that people are losing their businesses, businesses that they have built up over years in order to provide for their families.

I find it shocking that millions of pounds worth of stock has to be thrown away because of their reckless behaviour, Christian or not.

I think it's safe to say we are poles apart.

[Alrock]

I think it's safe to say we are poles apart.

Don't mention the Poles...

[theone]

Well, by definition, any migrant who acted in the way you describe would not be a christian!

By who's 'definition'?

in the so-called 'third world '

Why is it 'so-called'?

Never mind that Europe and the West has grown fat on the wealth of the countries from which these poor people are fleeing; never mind the fact that we have obscenely too much in the west and the inequality is staggering.

Because, as opposed to 'the west' those in 'the east' have so much equality? I'm thinking Russia, Dubai, China here, I don't see the equality, maybe you could enlighten me?

our practices and industries are causing the climate change from which the third world suffers.

Within the top 10 ranked countries for per-capia CO2 emissions are Qatar, Trinidad and Tobago, Kuwait, Brunei, UAE and Bahrain.

So, some of the 'economic migrants' (and very many are not just that)

Well then, what are they? Although I don't deny they have issues in their home countries, what are they fleeing France from?

The situation with this nowhere near as bad as it was, for example after the second world war with millions of displaced and desperate people- and yet we managed because we had a better mindset.

Yes. The global acceptance that deliberately bombing civilians was acceptable so long as it hurt a country shows a much superior mindset.

Why were you not shouting when all the economic migrants came in from Poland and Romania? Were you wagging your finger, when many young folk went over from Ireland seeking work abroad in recent years due to collapse of the Irish economy? Was it because they were not quite so 'other' than us so you were able to say, well good luck to them?

The people from these countries had the legal right to do so. They never did so through violence or by interrupting trade routes.

Most of the people in Calais state that they want to come in and find work.

If they have the skills or education that we are currently looking for, then they are most welcome. They should apply for a visa like any other foreign national. If they are unskilled then they have no more chance of finding work in Britain than they do in France.

I am not posting on this topic any longer.

That's a relief.