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Thread: Referedum mark 2

  1. #1

    Default Referedum mark 2

    Salmon

    Speaking on the BBC's Andrew Marr programme, said the independance question was over the timing which was "in the hands of Nicola Sturgeon".
    The SNP MP argued there were three things driving the issue forward.
    He said these were a failure to deliver on the so-called "vow", the possible outcome of the EU referendum and "divergent views" over austerity cuts.


    Sturgeon

    "It will be my ultimate decision, in line with the democratic decision-making processes of the SNP, to determine whether or not there is a commitment to a second referendum in the SNP manifesto for the Scottish election.
    "And in due course we will take that decision and take that decision based on what we consider to be in the best interests of the country."
    The first minister said she believed "one day" there would be another independence referendum, but that it required a change in circumstances from last year's vote.

    If Salmon and Sturgeon both agree on what "we / they consider to be in the best interests of the country and there is a change in circumstances from last year's vote". ( ie last year there was no tory majority / austerity cuts, smith commission is according to SNP falling short of SNP requirements and theres going to be an EU referendum, at 2 least material changes from 2015 referendum ) ....then 2016 = referendum mark 2

    Or am I seeing it wrong and is Salmon the back seat driver and puppet master, as the only word worth looking at is "timing"...

  2. #2
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    That's how I see it, and oddly enough, listening to him yesterday, I thought he was pulling her strings. As far as I am concerned, the Country spoke on the 18th of September last year, and the majority (which is all we needed ) of us said no. Salmond said before the vote, this was a once in a generation vote, what he forgot to say out loud was, unless we lose. Which they did, and now it's a case of - here we go again, and again until they get the decision they want. Because if they do'nt there is no purpose to their existing as a political party.

    They should have been upfront and honest from the start and just called themselves the Scottish Independence Party !

  3. #3

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    OK lets suppose that the SNP wlak 2016 Holyrood elections ( which they will pending a catastrophe ) and win the second referedum ( current polls show yes at 47% no at 53% ) are we not back re inventing the wheel, an independnat Scotland wishes tobecome an EU state and Salmon said last time round that membership could be negotiated in the relatively short period between a ‘yes’ vote in September 2014 and actual separation in spring 2016... ie 18 months start to finish.... yet on a visit to the Scottish Parliament, Ivan Grdesic, the Croatian ambassador to the UK, said nations wanting to join the EU are forced to “take pretty much what is offered”. new accession countries to the EU have to sign up to terms that are decided in Brussels without any meaningful “negotiating process. The EU authorities take a dim view of applicants asking for opt-outs from the various European treaties, he suggested, as this indicates they “don’t want to take the responsibility of membership”.

    So we take whats offered and we have to adopt the euro there is no opt out clause. Given this what currency, can we use between a yes vote and gaining entry to the EU ? ie what do we use in the gap period. Cant be the pound as thats BOE territory...surely ?


    But are we swapping Tory London ( BOE ) for another hard task master eg the European Central Bank, whose role is to maintain price stability within the eurozone The basic tasks, as defined in Article 3 of the Statute,are to define and implement the monetary policy for the Eurozone, to conduct foreign exchange operations,operations of the financial market infrastructure and the technical platform for settlement of securities in Europe. The ECB has, under Article 16 of its Statute, the exclusive right to authorise the issuance of euro banknotes ( controlling the money supply, print more / print less )
    The ECB is governed by European law directly, but its set-up resembles that of a corporation in the sense that the ECB has shareholders and stock capital....so we swap the city of London for another gang, controlling money policy, and markets...meet the new boss ( take a bow Mrs Merkel !!!! )

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by cptdodger View Post
    That's how I see it, and oddly enough, listening to him yesterday, I thought he was pulling her strings. As far as I am concerned, the Country spoke on the 18th of September last year, and the majority (which is all we needed ) of us said no. Salmond said before the vote, this was a once in a generation vote, what he forgot to say out loud was, unless we lose. Which they did, and now it's a case of - here we go again, and again until they get the decision they want. Because if they do'nt there is no purpose to their existing as a political party.

    They should have been upfront and honest from the start and just called themselves the Scottish Independence Party !
    AGreed....they are the National Scottish Party ( NSP ) the defacto one state party, the polls indicate a narrowing ie yes moving to 47%, but the same issues are in place as last time, you know the big big issues that Salmon fudged...what will our currency be, the time taken to get into EU, how we manage the gap between a yes vote and gaining EU membership, the fact that we cannot have any opt outs over EU membership...you know the real detail behind the bawling and shouting ! A more realistic option would be to focus on timing...ie get the country moving, convince big busines and finanial houses to stay put it is really all about timing... but Salmond is the gambler he cant help himself he wnats to push now...but as I said the missing detail "unavailable" last time round will come up again and again
    Last edited by rob murray; 27-Jul-15 at 16:16.

  5. #5
    BetterTogether is offline Banned (Sock Puppet of previously banned user)
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    I'm pretty sure every single one of us heard quite clearly it was " once in a generation" or once in a lifetime opportunity " last time around.
    Well this shows that these particular politicians word is really not worth a Jot. Ten months later it's back on the table being bandied about by SNP MPs on social media, Sturgeon hasn't been drawn on a date stating its a decision she will make when the time is right, nothing to do with the electorate.
    Salmond says it's inevitable when his boss is out of the country.

    If we can't trust those in charge to be honest on major issues how can they be trusted elsewhere.

    They are very good at diverting attention down to Westminster about constitutional issues but become very coy when their own track record here in Scotland is talked about.

    Local MPs go deathly silent when their own actions are called into question with no accountability or action taken.

    Then out there in the ether we have political spectators asking if Salmond is like Putin, removing himself from office and putting in a subordinate only to come back at an opportune moment as Scotland's great saviour.

    As far as I can see nothing is beyond these pair of political chancers and their legion of decidedly dodgy MPs parachuted into consitutuencies many with little or no prior experience except for being members of the SNP and so far failing magnificently to actually do anything.

    Ask any of their supporters to name a successful policy introduced by the SNP in the last 8 yrs they go quiet.

    Ask any of their supporters for an overwhelming success for bringing prosperity to Scotland they go quiet.

    Since the general election what have any of them actually done to make the lives of the people Scotland's lives better.

    Quibble over constitutional issues is about it and throw their principles out of the window on purely English issues.
    Last edited by BetterTogether; 27-Jul-15 at 16:17.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob murray View Post
    AGreed....they are the National Scottish Party ( NSP ) the defacto one state party, the polls indicate a narrowing ie yes moving to 47%, but the same issues are in place as last time, you know the big big issues that Salmon fudged...what will our currency be, the time taken to get into EU, how we manage the gap between a yes vote and gaining EU membership, the fact that we cannot have any opt outs over EU membership...you know the real detail behind the bawling and shouting ! A more realistic option would be to focus on timing...ie get the country moving, convince big busines and finanial houses to stay put it is really all about timing... but Salmond is the gambler he cant help himself he wnats to push now...but as I said the missing detail "unavailable" last time round will come up again and again
    Rob the reality is if Scotland votes to stay in the EU and rUk out the pound is not an option that would be a straight No from rUK.

    Scotland would have to join Europe and adopt the Euro no ifs no buts no negotiations. A lot of the major issues would change not to Scotland's benefit.

    Then we have the even more awkward thistle if Scotland votes to come out and rUK wants to stay in, then what do the SNP do.

    We also have a conundrum on under what terms the UK leaves the EU it all comes down to negotiations the circumstance of an exit how can you claim a major change unless you know under what terms the UK is leaving and how all the treaties will be affected.

    Opurtunism may get them a referendum but will it get Scotland a good deal.
    Last edited by BetterTogether; 27-Jul-15 at 16:23.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by BetterTogether View Post
    Rob the reality is if Scotland votes to stay in the EU and rUk out the pound is not an option that would be a straight No from rUK. Scotland would have to join Europe and adopt the Euro no ifs no buts no negotiations. A lot of the major issues would change not to Scotland's benefit. Then we have the even more awkward thistle if Scotland votes to come out and rUK wants to stay in, then what do the SNP do.
    Thats my point say we have an independance vote in 2016 ( ahead of any UK EU vote ) and its a yes, it will take 18 months - 2 years minimum to get EU membership for ourselves with no opt outs, and the waiting period ie we are independant... what currency do we use until we get into the EU where we will be using euro's whats the transational currency going to be ? If we wait for a UK EU vote in 2017 and its a yes...we still as a seperate country need a currency and the pound is the BOE so they still calll the shots surely ?
    Last edited by rob murray; 27-Jul-15 at 16:52.

  8. #8
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    It puts the SNP between a rock and a hard place. Also you have the Scottish Secretary quoting the SNP " once in a generation " " once in a lifetime " back at them so it's not so likely they'll get the option of another referendum so easily. Remember the Westminster agreement was for the last referendum, part of it was the both side should respect the outcome. The call for another referendum so soon would prove the SNP do not honour their agreements, they may find it not so agreeable next time round.

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    You may also we'll find if Scotland went down the EU route when rUK came out then rUK would be forced to introduce border controls and other restrictions as immigration policies would be so far apart.

  10. #10

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    AH but we live in Orwellian times where no means yes...if the SNP get another white wash next year at Holyrood elections ( 100% they will ) and Sturgeon sticks an independance vote in the manifesto then thats their democractic mandate, and they can claim that Scotland has unanimously rejected all other parties then we are a defacto one nation party so if another referendum takes place there can only be 3 outcomes

    1 Stay in UK
    2 Go, wait, take the pain and bend down to EU membership criteria
    3 Be independant and out of EU.

    Only 2 makes any sense, 1 is not on, 3 to big a gamble ( we would be a micro state outside all our trading partners unless Sturgeons secret talks with frackers is leading to some interesting results....potentially plugging the oil fiscal gap ) The issue is who wil lead a yes campaign ? No other party has the muscle / clout...so its an open goal for the SNP....unless of course the "timing" is deemed to be wrong ) fiscally )

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by BetterTogether View Post
    It puts the SNP between a rock and a hard place. Also you have the Scottish Secretary quoting the SNP " once in a generation " " once in a lifetime " back at them so it's not so likely they'll get the option of another referendum so easily. Remember the Westminster agreement was for the last referendum, part of it was the both side should respect the outcome. The call for another referendum so soon would prove the SNP do not honour their agreements, they may find it not so agreeable next time round.
    But last time round we had a coalition....since when did respect come into the equation ?? I cant see what your driving at when you say.............. they may find it not so agreeable next time round...care to elaborate

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    Quote Originally Posted by dozy View Post
    Yet again we have the Unionists roll out the "once in a lifetime " they a it so quick to roll out '" we will never go to war " or " Parliament has spoken and NO British personal will take part in any action in Syria " .Now we find out the King Cameron give the UK people two fingers and that included the Unionists. Unionist sound more like that German 1936 party very day .
    I'm pretty sure it was Alex Salmomd and Nicola Sturgeon who said " once in a lifetime " and " once in a generation " why are you trying to obfuscate with other decisions the UK Parliament has taken ad hominem attacks do your argument no favours. If the SNP intended to breach their promises so quickly why make them in the first place. They've won some seats at a General Election and failed at a Referendum, the support they had at the GE is was down on that they gained at the Referendum how does that equate to the support of the Scottish people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rob murray View Post
    But last time round we had a coalition....since when did respect come into the equation ?? I cant see what your driving at when you say.............. they may find it not so agreeable next time round...care to elaborate
    The UK government now has experience of how the SNP act leading up to a referendum. What if they decide to rule out using sterling, the queen all the other goodies the SNP relied upon last time to shore up their support and said next time independence means exactly that you take nothing more than what you're due and accept your full proportion of national debt. It would be far less appealing to an awful lot of Yes voters then. As it is we haven't a clue so that is just pure supposition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dozy View Post
    Unionist sound more like that German 1936 party very day .
    And what party would that be ?

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    There the unionists go again,moaning, grumbling and using their big gun,scare mongering,change the record for goodness sake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by piratelassie View Post
    There the unionists go again,moaning, grumbling and using their big gun,scare mongering,change the record for goodness sake.
    Pot, kettle .......

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by rob murray View Post
    AH but we live in Orwellian times where no means yes...if the SNP get another white wash next year at Holyrood elections ( 100% they will ) and Sturgeon sticks an independance vote in the manifesto then thats their democractic mandate, and they can claim that Scotland has unanimously rejected all other parties then we are a defacto one nation party so if another referendum takes place there can only be 3 outcomes
    100% really?I cannot see Orkney and Shetland changing to SNPAlso if a referendum is on the cards then that may just be enough for 55% of us to snub the nats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cptdodger View Post
    And what party would that be ?
    The one Jesse Owens threw, after the Olympic Games.

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    At last the SNP bashers have been rumbled.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by piratelassie View Post
    At last the SNP bashers have been rumbled.
    Not really You have Alex saying one thing and Nicola saying the other. They can not agree in their own group. The facts are you lost the argument 55% said no get over it.

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