Does Cameron Want The Union ?

[rob murray]

Does Cameron really want the union ? see http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/back...-bid-1-3830872

Seems not to me.....The geezer is playing with fire, handing over a massive political opportunity to Sturgeon who now has an open goal in front of her. The SNP’s Angus MacNeil said the proposed changes may offer his party a “huge lever to break the Union apart”. . If Cameron et all get their way and there are unacceptable restrictions in Scottish involvement at westminster, then thats framing the next referendum, providing we get another SNP whitewash at next years elections ( possibly 100% on the cards ) or are they double bluffing sturgeon, given the economy / oil prices and finances which dont stack up in terms of tackling and financing anti austerity / preservation of services as promised by the SNP, and are they speculating that Sturgeon will back down as regards a referendum as she has a weak hand financially or will she go for it, if she doesnt, then her own party would turn on her? Is this nothing but cynical bluffing ? oh its interesting that Sturgeon is now in talks with fracking people....but she should come clean on the issue, fracking could lead to a new industry and the expertise and capital is there unlike that needed to progress renewanales...wave and wind ? WOnder if Caithnes is suitable for fracking ?

Could more politically aware people than me put me right on EVEL and how is effects Scotland please as I fear Cameron is playing with fire, what was the point of voting no as I did to be treated so disresepctfully ? Please make real points no abuse or snidey comments.

[BetterTogether]

Even has no effect on Scottish Politics it is all about English MPs being able to vote on issues which have no devolved powers attached to them anything which falls into the realm of a developed power goes through parliament as normal. There is much made by SNP MSPs about being made second class MPs by the introduction of Evel because it would limit their ability to vote on purely English matters. The hypocrisy of this is quite astounding, on one hand you have Holyrood and its devolved powers which no English MP can vote on, flip the card you have English matters which Scottish MSPs can and do vote on. From the situation as it stands the only second class MPs are the English ones.

[sids]

Does Cameron really want the union ? see http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/back...-bid-1-3830872
.

Hard to tell what Cameron wants, from your linked article, as he is not even mentioned in it.

Like me, you can probably remember a time when the Scotsman was worth reading.

[rob murray]

Hard to tell what Cameron wants, from your linked article, as he is not even mentioned in it.

Like me, you can probably remember a time when the Scotsman was worth reading.

Yep I cant figure out the real agenda from Cameron hence my posting, technically he may not be mentioned in the article but his party is and he is the leader after all so I dont get your point ..... "In a backlash against the Nationalists’ decision to break their own rule on abstaining from English-only matters, Tory MPs lined up to call for the government to press ahead with plans to introduce Evel". The issue is in a few on line sources and isn ot a single paper story. I never read the scotsman either but the story was highlighted thats what caught my eye, and as I said I am not up to speed with this EVEL malarkey, seemed to me to be another stick that the NSP can beat westminster with "a lever to break the union"

[rob murray]

Even has no effect on Scottish Politics it is all about English MPs being able to vote on issues which have no devolved powers attached to them anything which falls into the realm of a developed power goes through parliament as normal. There is much made by SNP MSPs about being made second class MPs by the introduction of Evel because it would limit their ability to vote on purely English matters. The hypocrisy of this is quite astounding, on one hand you have Holyrood and its devolved powers which no English MP can vote on, flip the card you have English matters which Scottish MSPs can and do vote on. From the situation as it stands the only second class MPs
are the English ones.

Would the NSP not claim that they have limited devolved powers though and westminster is not giving them what they want, re devolved powers, whilst now tying their hands behind their backs in westminster ? I can see that would be their spin on it.

[cptdodger]

This is probably a simplistic view of things, however, from my point of view the reason the SNP were formed was to gain Independence for Scotland, and on the 18th of September last year, the Country voted no. Since then they have constantly droned on about powers being devolved from Westminster to Holyrood. - There is a PDF on here which outline the powers - http://researchbriefings.parliament....ummary/SN06987

As far as I am concerned, they did'nt win, and are lucky they are getting the above. As for English votes for English laws, quite right, as Better Together says, if English MP's, suddenly decided to vote on Scottish Laws, there would be such an outcry from Holyrood.

For one minute there I actually agreed with the SNP when they decided to vote against the relaxation of the fox hunting laws, I thought they were doing it out of the goodness of their hearts to curb a barbaric "sport". But no, it was just a calculated political move. It would not have mattered one jot what the subject was. And that, is what you are dealing with.

[rob murray]

This is probably a simplistic view of things, however, from my point of view the reason the SNP were formed was to gain Independence for Scotland, and on the 18th of September last year, the Country voted no. Since then they have constantly droned on about powers being devolved from Westminster to Holyrood. - There is a PDF on here which outline the powers - http://researchbriefings.parliament....ummary/SN06987

As far as I am concerned, they did'nt win, and are lucky they are getting the above. As for English votes for English laws, quite right, as Better Together says, if English MP's, suddenly decided to vote on Scottish Laws, there would be such an outcry from Holyrood.

For one minute there I actually agreed with the SNP when they decided to vote against the relaxation of the fox hunting laws, I thought they were doing it out of the goodness of their hearts to curb a barbaric "sport". But no, it was just a calculated political move. It would not have mattered one jot what the subject was. And that, is what you are dealing with.

Thanks for the info, will need to take time and get my head around it. Fox hunting......agree with your point as NSP strategy at westminster is to cause friction and annoyance so much, that at some stage they will get their referendum and the english will be glad to see the back of scotland. Is that the case ?

[Fulmar]

For one minute there I actually agreed with the SNP when they decided to vote against the relaxation of the fox hunting laws, I thought they were doing it out of the goodness of their hearts to curb a barbaric "sport". But no, it was just a calculated political move. It would not have mattered one jot what the subject was. And that, is what you are dealing with.
I am not sure that this is the entire picture. I heard that Scottish MPs had received a lot of representation from their constituents to vote against the repeal of the hunting with dogs act and I am sure that did influence the decision to vote on the issue. Also, it was only because many Tory MPs are also opposed that the Scottish MPs votes were significant. On less contentious issues, the Tories do have a clear majority.
Who can tell what they are all up to in Westminster? I can see both sides of the argument really. What I do not want to see is a somehow different institution called the 'English Parliament' being set up which is what some in the SNP seem to be calling for? That, in my view, would be crazy and a gross waste of money and where would that leave Westminster as we know it? Far as I'm concerned, it should remain as it is and I would hope that on things that are purely English and not such moral, contentious issues like fox hunting (which, I believe, the majority of people everywhere in the UK do not want to see coming back), the Nationalist MPs would do the decent thing and abstain. Eternal optimism, I guess!

[rob murray]

For one minute there I actually agreed with the SNP when they decided to vote against the relaxation of the fox hunting laws, I thought they were doing it out of the goodness of their hearts to curb a barbaric "sport". But no, it was just a calculated political move. It would not have mattered one jot what the subject was. And that, is what you are dealing with.
I am not sure that this is the entire picture. I heard that Scottish MPs had received a lot of representation from their constituents to vote against the repeal of the hunting with dogs act and I am sure that did influence the decision to vote on the issue. Also, it was only because many Tory MPs are also opposed that the Scottish MPs votes were significant. On less contentious issues, the Tories do have a clear majority.
Who can tell what they are all up to in Westminster? I can see both sides of the argument really. What I do not want to see is a somehow different institution called the 'English Parliament' being set up which is what some in the SNP seem to be calling for? That, in my view, would be crazy and a gross waste of money and where would that leave Westminster as we know it? Far as I'm concerned, it should remain as it is and I would hope that on things that are purely English and not such moral, contentious issues like fox hunting (which, I believe, the majority of people everywhere in the UK do not want to see coming back), the Nationalist MPs would do the decent thing and abstain. Eternal optimism, I guess!

Well put ! Where would NSP MPS's contribute in an " english parliament" ....is it not the case then given this that there is no logical requirement for a UK parliament so turn the clock back to 1706 and we have our own parliament...next steps independance ? As I said earlier is there not a dangerous game at play here ?

[cptdodger]

I can only answer that from a personal point of view, not political, but I lived in England for years, and I can honestly say I never came across the level of negativity shown towards Scotland that is shown towards England here, ever. From a political point of view, I had Prime Minister's Questions on in the background a couple of weeks ago, during it there was a load of questions on different subjects that is until the SNP lot got started, every single one that spoke, and I think there was four or five, asked the same question worded differently. I think Cameron got fed up with this and said something along the lines of the SNP were not utilating the powers they already had, so what was the rush, something like that anyway. Then there was the fox hunting vote.

I do'nt think it's so much that Cameron wants another referendum and the UK split, I think it's more of a case they are going to get so fed up of the SNP, he will be forced into allowing another referendum.

[rob murray]

I can only answer that from a personal point of view, not political, but I lived in England for years, and I can honestly say I never came across the level of negativity shown towards Scotland that is shown towards England here, ever. From a political point of view, I had Prime Minister's Questions on in the background a couple of weeks ago, during it there was a load of questions on different subjects that is until the SNP lot got started, every single one that spoke, and I think there was four or five, asked the same question worded differently. I think Cameron got fed up with this and said something along the lines of the SNP were not utilating the powers they already had, so what was the rush, something like that anyway. Then there was the fox hunting vote.

I do'nt think it's so much that Cameron wants another referendum and the UK split, I think it's more of a case they are going to get so fed up of the SNP, he will be forced into allowing another referendum.

I would tend to agree with what you say about getting so fed up with them that they cave in and give another referendum....interesting that you mention negativty to the english up here....and little negativity by english towads scotland, based on your personal experiences ...care to give some examples...just curious ??

[sids]

Yep I cant figure out the real agenda from Cameron hence my posting, technically he may not be mentioned in the article but his party is and he is the leader after all so I dont get your point ..... "In a backlash against the Nationalists’ decision to break their own rule on abstaining from English-only matters, Tory MPs lined up to call for the government to press ahead with plans to introduce Evel".

If I have a point, it's that this is an example of Tory backbenchers playing to the gallery of their constituents. Goes on all the time.

[cptdodger]

Well put ! Where would NSP MPS's contribute in an " english parliament" ....is it not the case then given this that there is no logical requirement for a UK parliament so turn the clock back to 1706 and we have our own parliament...next steps independance ? As I said earlier is there not a dangerous game at play here ?

That's the thing then is'nt it? The minute we were given a Scottish Parliament whenever it was, that was the slippery slope. Scotland has a Parliament, Wales has its National Assembly, Northern Ireland has Stormont, England has - ? Westminster, but Westminster incorporates Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. So, this is how I look at it, if the three of us, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own Parliaments why can't England?

To do that, there is no point in any of us being part of the UK, again a simplistic view on a complex problem !

[rob murray]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...n-England.html

Interesting read : can be seen in 2 ways, 1 A genuine concern for English people and England 2 Interference for political gain..kinda backs up what Cpt dodger is saying ie p*ss tories off so much they cave inSNP unveils plans for MPs to focus on England Angus Robertson, the SNP's Westminster leader, says the party's strength at Westminster means it will now get involved in issues outside of Scotland

Interesting read : can be seen in 2 ways, 1 A genuine concern for English people and England 2 Interference for political gain..kinda backs up what Cpt dodger is saying ie p*ss tories off so much they cave in

The Scottish Nationalists are to start regularly interfering in English affairs as part of a plan to use their new strength in the Commons to extend their power south of the Border. Angus Robertson, the SNP’s leader at Westminster, said the ranks of new SNP MPs meant the party was no longer restricted to focusing on their traditional Scottish interests and they would now tackle issues affecting other parts of the UK.

In a letter to his group, he said the SNP “has much to say” that is relevant to the rest of the UK and its “progressive policy agenda” applies across the country".

Interesting qoute from John Lamont “The SNP might not feel they have enough to keep them busy in Westminster, but there are plenty of issues under the control of the Scottish Government which are causing serious worry to people in Scotland. It’s for the voters to judge whether SNP politicians should stand up for Scotland or stand up for Shorpe.”

Bit like watching table tennis eh !!

[rob murray]

That's the thing then is'nt it? The minute we were given a Scottish Parliament whenever it was, that was the slippery slope. Scotland has a Parliament, Wales has its National Assembly, Northern Ireland has Stormont, England has - ? Westminster, but Westminster incorporates Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. So, this is how I look at it, if the three of us, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own Parliaments why can't England?

To do that, there is no point in any of us being part of the UK, again a simplistic view on a complex problem !

Sometimes its best to cut the quick though, its not simplistic, your highlighting the key issue

[sids]

Angus Robertson, the SNP's Westminster leader, says the party's strength at Westminster means it will now get involved in issues outside of Scotland [/SIZE][/B]

Interesting read : can be seen in 2 ways,

Or a third way: It's taken them two and a half months to realise they are Opposition MPs in the UK Government and that is their job.

[cptdodger]

I would tend to agree with what you say about getting so fed up with them that they cave in and give another referendum....interesting that you mention negativty to the english up here....and little negativity by english towads scotland, based on your personal experiences ...care to give some examples...just curious ??

By here, I mean Scotland, just in case anybody thinks I am singling Caithness out. I will give you one example, although there are many. I was working in Dundee when the 2006 World Cup was on, they used to show the matches, especially the English ones where I worked. I was sitting opposite somebody, when a mouthful of abuse came out about England, fair enough there is always rivalry in sport, but I asked her was that about the team or English people in general, well it was the latter and everybody around her agreed. So I calmly told her my partner is English as are two of my children who were born in England, and as far as I was concerned (I remember what she said but wont repeat it on here) that stream of abuse was aimed at my family, you could see smoke omitting from her shoes she backtracked that quickly.

As I say, that is just one example, I have read things on this forum that I find very derogative towards the English in general. You are quite right to call me sensitive, but in my view that's my children they are attacking, just because they happened to be born in England.

And again, I can honestly say I never heard anybody say anything like that in England, I was made to feel so welcome, and I lived there (in different areas) for fourteen years.

[sids]

I wouldn't excuse rudeness, but I can't say I'm shocked or surprised that someone said something nasty about England, in a Dundee boozer, while watching an England game.

[cptdodger]

I wouldn't excuse rudeness, but I can't say I'm shocked or surprised that someone said something nasty about England, in a Dundee boozer, while watching an England game.

This was at work, no alcohol involved !

[sids]

This was at work, no alcohol involved !

You had football TV at work?

And you left!