Our new MPS first speech in westminster :

[Fulmar]

This has turned into such an interesting thread and very informative.
I believe it is vital to understand the past as best we may in order to throw light on the present, not just the facts but the mindset of the people who lived in those times.
It was not blanket bad news though was it. So very many in the 19th C dedicated their life (at personal cost) to bringing about the social justice and reforms that we benefit from today at a time when the prevailing belief among many was that there was a divine order for things, that people had to stay fixed within the class in which they were born and then used this to justify (in their own mind) horrendous and hideous treatment of the poor.
Reading 19th century literature is fascinating in this respect and so hard to understand today how people back then could possibly have believed what they did but because others dared to challenge and agitate over the state of things, changes in attitude did come about- and it's still happening, thank goodness.

[rob murray]

This has turned into such an interesting thread and very informative.
I believe it is vital to understand the past as best we may in order to throw light on the present, not just the facts but the mindset of the people who lived in those times.
It was not blanket bad news though was it. So very many in the 19th C dedicated their life (at personal cost) to bringing about the social justice and reforms that we benefit from today at a time when the prevailing belief among many was that there was a divine order for things, that people had to stay fixed within the class in which they were born and then used this to justify (in their own mind) horrendous and hideous treatment of the poor.
Reading 19th century literature is fascinating in this respect and so hard to understand today how people back then could possibly have believed what they did but because others dared to challenge and agitate over the state of things, changes in attitude did come about- and it's still happening, thank goodness.

Totally agree with your post, Im really enjoying this history thread. Whooly agree with your statement.....I believe it is vital to understand the past as best we may in order to throw light on the present !!

[rob murray]

Now you're getting creative. Mr Dodger said he mentioned visiting Dunrobin and got chapter and verse about the Highland Clearances; that sounded rude to me.

Now you're giving me permission to call these Dornoch people, of whom I have never heard, hot headed and rude!

Thats not what I meant in anyway or shape...Ive been quite clear its the history Im interested in whats past is past, still doesnt deter people wanting to understand the past....if thats the case why bother teaching history.

[rob murray]

I'll do none of what you suggest, thanks.

Your guy giving the presentation was obviously on a loser, but he had a sort of point in that there would have been big changes and most of the people would have left anyway. However, you can't excuse inhumanity.

I don't begrudge descendants of the victims their hatred of the landowners, but I have no direct connection with the clearances. I'm just a Wick inhabitant who goes to work every day, from a long line of people who did the same , or had small businesses. I'm not going to construct in my tiny mind some massive grudge against toffs.

Thats your opinion and choice which your quite entitled to. As the poster above puts it and I agree with the sentiments, it is vital to understand the past as best we may in order to throw light on the present, and I have no grudge whatsoever against any "toffs", theve done nowt to me as Ive said repeatedly whats past is past and whats done is done Im only interested in the history

[sids]

Studying history and understanding the past will only depress you, when it all happens again!

[cptdodger]

Thats not what I meant in anyway or shape...Ive been quite clear its the history Im interested in whats past is past, still doesnt deter people wanting to understand the past....if thats the case why bother teaching history.

I quite agree, it is interesting to found out how we, (Caithness and Sutherland) got to this point. Clearly, the Clearances played a part in that. In my case, I love Dundee's history as I was brought up in Broughty Ferry. When I was growing up we had the three J's, Jute Jam (Keillers) and Journalism (DC Thomson), we only have the Journalism left. Dundee had to reinvent itself when we lost the Jute industry and in 2014 Dundee was recognised by the United Nations as the UK's first UNESCO City of Design for its diverse contributions to fields including medical research, comics and video games. Probably Grand Theft Auto being the most famous game to come out of Dundee ! As of today, the waterfront has been decimated and is being rebuilt to contain the first Victoria and Albert Museum outside London.

Dundee and Broughty Ferry have both had their tragedies, Dundee, The Tay Bridge Disaster, where a train was going over the bridge when it collapsed at the cost of between 60 - 75 lives. And we lost our Lifeboat "The Mona" with all hands, eight brave men including a father and son. That was just before I was born on the 8th of December 1959. At that time Broughty Ferry was still a small village like place where everybody knew everybody else. I know every single family that was involved.

Although that is probably only interesting to me ! The point I am trying to make is, history (I believe) shapes who we are. Moving from a City to here, it does concern me what the children growing up here now, are going to do career wise. Once Dounreay goes, and it will, what opportunities will they be left with? The sheer amount of people that Dounreay employs keeps Thurso going, once that goes, once again, people will be forced to move South to find opportunities there.

[rob murray]

Studying history and understanding the past will only depress you, when it all happens again!

Fair point.

[rob murray]

I quite agree, it is interesting to found out how we, (Caithness and Sutherland) got to this point. Clearly, the Clearances played a part in that. In my case, I love Dundee's history as I was brought up in Broughty Ferry. When I was growing up we had the three J's, Jute Jam (Keillers) and Journalism (DC Thomson), we only have the Journalism left. Dundee had to reinvent itself when we lost the Jute industry and in 2014 Dundee was recognised by the United Nations as the UK's first UNESCO City of Design for its diverse contributions to fields including medical research, comics and video games. Probably Grand Theft Auto being the most famous game to come out of Dundee ! As of today, the waterfront has been decimated and is being rebuilt to contain the first Victoria and Albert Museum outside London.

Dundee and Broughty Ferry have both had their tragedies, Dundee, The Tay Bridge Disaster, where a train was going over the bridge when it collapsed at the cost of between 60 - 75 lives. And we lost our Lifeboat "The Mona" with all hands, eight brave men including a father and son. That was just before I was born on the 8th of December 1959. At that time Broughty Ferry was still a small village like place where everybody knew everybody else. I know every single family that was involved.

Although that is probably only interesting to me ! The point I am trying to make is, history (I believe) shapes who we are. Moving from a City to here, it does concern me what the children growing up here now, are going to do career wise. Once Dounreay goes, and it will, what opportunities will they be left with? The sheer amount of people that Dounreay employs keeps Thurso going, once that goes, once again, people will be forced to move South to find opportunities there.

Very interesting to hear your take on moving from a city to a rurl area and how history shapes who we are : I know Dundee well as 2 of my childern went to university there ( Dundee University ) , my son is a music jourmalist now working in London ( for his sins he started supporting Dundee FC when down there and Dundee and Wick Academy are his teams ) but he got his start with a Dundee based publication : The surviving jute factory buildings are impressive buildings as is the tenements you see in Dundee, Dundee has really moved on though, its a vibrant place and as you say has made an impact in the field of computer gaming..Abertay University in Dundee specialise in teaching gaming / technology applications : Broughty Ferry....again a really nice place, very picturesque around the harbour and mainstreet : oh forgot to mention the best music shop in Scotland that Ive seen for vinyl and all formats is at the bottom of Perth Road Dundee...Grouchos....

[moureen]

Hi,if anyone interested in Sutherland there is a site Breatongue 1845_ Mary Young's Scullomie Pages it tells of Mr Horsburgh's visit of tenants in Tongue 1844 1845. Heart breaking to read.

[cptdodger]

I actually worked in Abertay University, I ran the Blackwells Bookshop which they had there, I say shop, it was temporary place in the student's union at the start of terms! It was very interesting what actually goes into the gaming industry, for instance they had to learn Japanese ! I'm all for moving with the times but I have to say, some of the buildings they have brought down in Dundee, is a crime, beautiful buildings just gone, and I am not referring to Tayside House ! (the thing that towered above the Caird Hall) but as much as an eyesore as it was, it was part of Dundee's skyline, you knew you were home when you saw that thing !!

You have probably walked past my late Grandmothers house in Broughty Ferry, she lived just round the corner from Gray Street (where Visocchi's is and has the best ice cream in the world!) near our beloved Swans !!

Groucho's goodness me, great shop, so pleased it survived the digital age!

[cptdodger]

Hi,if anyone interested in Sutherland there is a site Breatongue 1845_ Mary Young's Scullomie Pages it tells of Mr Horsburgh's visit of tenants in Tongue 1844 1845. Heart breaking to read.

Is this it Moureen ? http://cmy.iay.org.uk/resources/1844.htm

[rob murray]

I actually worked in Abertay University, I ran the Blackwells Bookshop which they had there, I say shop, it was temporary place in the student's union at the start of terms! It was very interesting what actually goes into the gaming industry, for instance they had to learn Japanese ! I'm all for moving with the times but I have to say, some of the buildings they have brought down in Dundee, is a crime, beautiful buildings just gone, and I am not referring to Tayside House ! (the thing that towered above the Caird Hall) but as much as an eyesore as it was, it was part of Dundee's skyline, you knew you were home when you saw that thing !!

You have probably walked past my late Grandmothers house in Broughty Ferry, she lived just round the corner from Gray Street (where Visocchi's is and has the best ice cream in the world!) near our beloved Swans !!

Groucho's goodness me, great shop, so pleased it survived the digital age!

Same thing happened in WIck, lovely old tenament buildings in Pulteytown, south of the river, and nearly everything in west high street was pulled down in the early 70's,completly altered the town centre, tenaments were sound buildings and could have been refurbished, it was a local controvery well to some people / change to others.... Grouchos aye still going and doing well. Ive been in Brought Ferry loads of times used to take a run though when we were down in Dundee so yes I more than likley walked past your grannies house.

[rob murray]

Hi,if anyone interested in Sutherland there is a site Breatongue 1845_ Mary Young's Scullomie Pages it tells of Mr Horsburgh's visit of tenants in Tongue 1844 1845. Heart breaking to read.

Thanks Moureen will track this down.

[rob murray]

Is this it Moureen ? http://cmy.iay.org.uk/resources/1844.htm

I think its this one http://cmy.iay.org.uk/resources/1845times.htm ie based on a Times newspaper investigation into official reports made as regards "idelness! ( reliance on the poor law ) in the "new fishing villages"....tackling the lies head on...a quick squint through and as Moureen says its heartbreaking stuff.

Among many others, Mr ROBERT HORSBURGH, Factor to the Sutherland Estate, gave evidence in 1844 to The Parliamentary Inquiry into the Administration and Practical Operation of the Poor Laws of Scotland. He made claims of idleness in the so-called new "Fishing Villages" which aroused much public resentment. (This was a time of hardship and unemployment prior to the potato famine, which reached Tongue in 1846.)

In response, "The Times of London" sent a correspondent, "Our Own Commissioner" round the Highlands. During 1845-1846 his findings were published in twelve articles entitled "The Condition of the Poor in the Highlands of Scotland". The extracts reproduced below relate particularly to the area of Tongue Parish. Proves the power of the media to expose what was really going on rather than accept the distortions and lies comming from the factor.

[rob murray]

This is really bad stuff and from a minister as well, a great factual description of the abject poverty suffered by the Tongue people : The Rev. Hugh McKenzie, the former minister of the parish, in his evidence before the commissioners says—"They used to eat no vegetables. They had a few spots of oats and bear, but they bought very little meal. Potatoes were only introduced when I was a child and now it is a general food." This was the food that made fine men and gallant soldiers. They are not however, now to be seen. The people now are a thin meagre, half-starved-looking and stunted race. The worst sign they exhibit however is their abject apathy. The fact is, they are starved down, and kept in such perpetual terror of losing their crofts, their only livelihood, that they are spirit-broken and hopeless. I saw a school of some 20 children today. I do not think in any by-alley in London in the most impure and confined atmosphere you could see 20 children with such pallid faces and thin half-fed forms as these poor children, living on a hillside facing the sea. Now what are the chief features of the population of this place? The total absence of a middle class—there is no middle class and a starving poor. It may fairly be asked, is not this a natural consequence of such a state of society. I think there can be no question of it. There is, close to the shore here, an exhaustless supply of fish—cod, ling, herrings, haddocks, lobsters. Smacks from London fish off the coast. The owners make money by it, or they would not do it. But the owners of these smacks are enterprising middle-class men who employ the poorer class. There is no middle class man here (in Tongue) to employ the poor. What is the result? There is not a single fishing boat at this place. The sheep farmers see it, and the minister sees it and the factor sees it, and they say "Look at these lazy people—clear them out." Why? What can they do? Did the lowest class of poor in England ever project and carry through any enterprise?

[cptdodger]

I have just been reading that, the paragraph above it is just as bad, dear me. The minister seems to think that the "poor" were a different breed, (for want of a better description) than the "middle class" Going by that description, that was probably how they were treated - as third class citizens. And to be fair, if they could hardly feed themselves, where were these fishing boats supposed to come from? I'm no expert, but I would imagine it would take a fair amount of skill to build one.

The paragraph above that one goes into detail regarding the (if you could call it that) housing -

"The mud hut or hovel in which this man and his wife live is inconceivably wretched. One room with uneven mud floor, full of holes; peat fire in the middle on the floor, the smoke going out at the door; potatoes in one corner, the bed in another, a wood stool and two or three dishes and pans in another - all however, begrimed with peat smoke or covered with the dirt of the unswept mud floor." That was 1845.

Then if you look at Edinburgh for example, by 1850, most of what they call the New Town was built, which includes Princes Street, George Street, Charlotte Square and so on. It was as if (and this is not meant as derogatory) the poor souls in the Highlands were living in another century. If you compare the two they are just worlds apart.

[rob murray]

I have just been reading that, the paragraph above it is just as bad, dear me. The minister seems to think that the "poor" were a different breed, (for want of a better description) than the "middle class" Going by that description, that was probably how they were treated - as third class citizens. And to be fair, if they could hardly feed themselves, where were these fishing boats supposed to come from? I'm no expert, but I would imagine it would take a fair amount of skill to build one.

The paragraph above that one goes into detail regarding the (if you could call it that) housing -

"The mud hut or hovel in which this man and his wife live is inconceivably wretched. One room with uneven mud floor, full of holes; peat fire in the middle on the floor, the smoke going out at the door; potatoes in one corner, the bed in another, a wood stool and two or three dishes and pans in another - all however, begrimed with peat smoke or covered with the dirt of the unswept mud floor." That was 1845.

Then if you look at Edinburgh for example, by 1850, most of what they call the New Town was built, which includes Princes Street, George Street, Charlotte Square and so on. It was as if (and this is not meant as derogatory) the poor souls in the Highlands were living in another century. If you compare the two they are just worlds apart.

Good points, you could say that there were 2 worlds, although doubtless Edinburgh / Glasgow had their big grand buildings but were still infested with horrendous slums for the ordinary people : the article is a good historical read, many thanks to Moureen for bringing this one to all our attention

[cptdodger]

I think we see everything from a 21st century perspective, as in how could that happen, was there nothing in place for the poorest people in the Highlands and as you say Rob, the Cities. I might be wrong but I do'nt think the welfare state (as we know it) came into play until the 1940's, certainly, the NHS was'nt founded until 1947/48. I also believe it was a criminal offence to be poor back then. Compared to what those poor souls endured, our lives are easy.

Moureen, I agree, very informative, I am just grateful I can read it as a historical document, and not as part of my family history, if it could possibly be worse, it would be knowing a member of your family, regardless how far back, went through that. I used to wonder why people got upset when they were filming "Who do you think you are" because there ancestors had passed away years before, but I can see why now.

[moureen]

Glad you all found article as interesting as I did but so sad.My family moved to Tongue when I was about 5 I have always found the history of my Highland blood interesting.

[rob murray]

I think we see everything from a 21st century perspective, as in how could that happen, was there nothing in place for the poorest people in the Highlands and as you say Rob, the Cities. I might be wrong but I do'nt think the welfare state (as we know it) came into play until the 1940's, certainly, the NHS was'nt founded until 1947/48. I also believe it was a criminal offence to be poor back then. Compared to what those poor souls endured, our lives are easy.

Moureen, I agree, very informative, I am just grateful I can read it as a historical document, and not as part of my family history, if it could possibly be worse, it would be knowing a member of your family, regardless how far back, went through that. I used to wonder why people got upset when they were filming "Who do you think you are" because there ancestors had passed away years before, but I can see why now.

You make a very good point on the emotions often seen in Who do you think you are. Help for the distressed in the c19th century was delivered at local levels by parish councils who administered poor law relief paid from out of rates, in extreme circumstances government intervened as they did in the Highlands but government money was managed by local agents, in the case of areas in the Highalnds which suffered from the clearances ie Tongue being a clear example here, to give out money to the distressed was admitting to a problem that the poor law relief boards ( usually staffed with factors ) caused themelves, ie people were in distressed circumtances precisily because of their ( the factors ) actions, so to keep the tin lid on the issues they caused the factors were very harsh in managing the money. In general if you met poor law relief criteria you got a little, but in most cases people had to enter the work house where at least they had a roof over their heads and were "fed". However in wee highland places it wasnt economic to have a work house, so a double whammy, no poor law relief, very ( if any ) access to government funds for poor law and no easy access to a "local" work house.

Insured benefits ie unemployent benefit was introduced in c1910 and as long as you had paid your contributions you got benefits, when your "stamps" ran out you had to apply for means tested benefits, where before you got anything your circumstances were investigated..."surplus" goods you would have to be sell before you got a penny, and that was the situation up until 1948 when the national assistance act was passed ie when unemployment benefit entitlement ran out you applied for national assistance and means testing was abolished. Workhouses although abolished at a national level in 1930 actually continued as run by local councils as "municpal hospitals" up until the national assistance act 1948.