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Thread: Full Fiscal Autonomy FFA

  1. #61
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    Better Together you complain that no one else answers your posts. You demand that people respond to you. There are 27 posts where you and Rob talk to yourselves with no interruption, shabbychic challenges you in one post and you complain that this is a one party state.

    This isn't a one party state BT there are several parties you could vote for and probably did. Just dos you lost and someone else won doesn't make it a one party state. Yours and Robs are the loudest voices, certainly on this thread by miles, make some room for others and you'll get a discussion.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by squidge View Post
    Better Together you complain that no one else answers your posts. You demand that people respond to you. There are 27 posts where you and Rob talk to yourselves with no interruption, shabbychic challenges you in one post and you complain that this is a one party state. This isn't a one party state BT there are several parties you could vote for and probably did. Just dos you lost and someone else won doesn't make it a one party state. Yours and Robs are the loudest voices, certainly on this thread by miles, make some room for others and you'll get a discussion.
    I've absolutely no problem with anyone voicing their opinions Squidge and as you're more than aware quite capable of challenging them, this thread is open to anyone to join in and I wish more would.
    But there is a distinct point of difference between heated debate and complaining that someone questions your source of data or they don't just accept your opinion.
    I think even you'd accept Business for Scotland doesn't represent even one of Scotlands top 20 companies and most are sole traders or companies with neglible or no turnover.
    If I wanted I could state numerous directorships of companies which are still technically live but doing nothing or over claim to be a business leader if being on the top tier of one of the country's leading multi nationals counted. Do I bother no I've retired and everything is now in abeyance.
    Does it mean I should accept that some little group over stating their position speak for Scottish Business and Industry no it doesn't.
    Most of what's been discussed on this thread is political posturing not even dressed up as anything else. There seems to be little real understanding of what Full Fiscal Autonomy is what the implications are or how it affects the country as a whole.
    I read the business for Scotland website and let's be fair it doesn't amount to much. I could easily state Scotland could be the richest country in the world if we pooled our resources decided and become the most advanced industrious country dependent on x or y factors, without any figures to back it up, it just preposterous nonsense and not worthy of the time spent reading it.
    Hard choices and realities would face Scotland if it goes down the route of FFA in the current world climate the odds are stacked against a country with high borrowing and no easily defined method of reducing those costs, hence the situation we are currently in and the nation as a wholes more prosperous recovery.
    Despite those of a certain political persuasions statement of failed austerity over and over there is no proof of it having failed, it's an ongoing situation in employments down, the economy is bouncing back and interest rates are still low every key economic marker shows the nation as a whole is moving in the right direction.
    Meanwhile in Scotland things aren't so rosey. Literacy rates are falling, unemployment isn't falling, the NHS is struggling, Targets are set by the SNP over and over and missed by a mile yet they and their supporters have the temerity to claim austerity is failed. Staggering beyond belief is what it truly is.
    The country voted to remain part of the Union, part of that was the fact they we have a single tax regime across the country yet the SNP are trying independence lite FFA despite the vast majority of credible sources saying it will leave Scotland with financial difficulties.
    Only this mornings we had to listen to Stewart Hosie stating the requirement for a framework to be in place just in case it all goes horribly wrong.
    The amendment is alleged to be poorly thought out and not worded very well.
    Meanwhile there is another amendment going through shortly to drive FFA through at breakneck speed. Neither situation is good for the country as the chances are that in all likelihood it will plunge Scotland into more austerity than the Tories would even have considered in their most wonderous of dreams.
    I could disseminate every critical issue in your long post and draw distinctions between politics, aspirations and the harsh economic realities of some of what you've proposed by needless to say I feel id be wasting my and your time.So I now feel let them have it, if the SNP want to impose FFA on Scotland and all their followers think it's such a wonderful idea why not let them have it. Why should I care when the countries crippled with unsustainable debt, soaring taxes and shrinking public sector and poverty not seen in this country for over a hundred years. I can just go elsewhere and live a happy life and not worry. So it's all yours but always remember be careful what you wish for as you may not like what you get. For when the income tax rate soars, vat soars fuel,prices soar the public sector lay offs increase and unemployment soars I hope you'll still be around to tell everyone that you had a few concerns and not to worry it'll be alright on the night.
    Last edited by BetterTogether; 14-Jun-15 at 17:24.

  3. #63
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    Please can you edit it for paragraphs. It's a bit hard to follow.

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    How about dealing with this.Institute for fiscal studies estimate for UK /Scotland deficit 2015/16
    75 billion entire UK (4% GDP )

    61 Billion England + Wales + N.Ireland ( 3.6% GDP )

    14 Billion Scotland ( 8.7% GDP )

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    Oil would have to be 1500 a barrel to pay for everything in the UK


    Quote Originally Posted by BetterTogether View Post
    Here's a BBC report from yesterday, Kezia Dugdale has had her people do some independent research and claims that Oil would have to be $200 a barrel to pay for everything current oil price is $65 a barrel


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-33092159

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    Quote Originally Posted by piratelassie View Post
    Oil would have to be 1500 a barrel to pay for everything in the UK
    I'm always amused when people make up statistics to desperately try and make themselves look vaguely normal.

    Thank you for the biggest laugh of the day.

  7. #67
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    Thanks for the paragraphs is it the iPad thing? I always have to go back in and edit my posts too.
    Quote Originally Posted by BetterTogether View Post
    I've absolutely no problem with anyone voicing their opinions Squidge and as you're more than aware quite capable of challenging them, this thread is open to anyone to join in and I wish more would. But there is a distinct point of difference between heated debate and complaining that someone questions your source of data or they don't just accept your opinion. I think even you'd accept Business for Scotland doesn't represent even one of Scotlands top 20 companies and most are sole traders or companies with neglible or no turnover. If I wanted I could state numerous directorships of companies which are still technically live but doing nothing or over claim to be a business leader if being on the top tier of one of the country's leading multi nationals counted. Do I bother no I've retired and everything is now in abeyance. Does it mean I should accept that some little group over stating their position speak for Scottish Business and Industry no it doesn't. Most of what's been discussed on this thread is political posturing not even dressed up as anything else. There seems to be little real understanding of what Full Fiscal Autonomy is what the implications are or how it affects the country as a whole. I read the business for Scotland website and let's be fair it doesn't amount to much. I could easily state Scotland could be the richest country in the world if we pooled our resources decided and become the most advanced industrious country dependent on x or y factors, without any figures to back it up, it just preposterous nonsense and not worthy of the time spent reading it.
    But isn't this paragraph just you doing exactly what you complained shabby chic was doing? Rubbishing sources that you don't agree with? Better Together you refuse ABSOLUTELY to accept any sources, any supporting evidence which is contrary to how you think things should be. You have been consistent in that as long as you have posted here.
    Quote Originally Posted by BetterTogether View Post
    Hard choices and realities would face Scotland if it goes down the route of FFA in the current world climate the odds are stacked against a country with high borrowing and no easily defined method of reducing those costs, hence the situation we are currently in and the nation as a wholes more prosperous recovery. Despite those of a certain political persuasions statement of failed austerity over and over there is no proof of it having failed, it's an ongoing situation in employments down, the economy is bouncing back and interest rates are still low every key economic marker shows the nation as a whole is moving in the right direction. Meanwhile in Scotland things aren't so rosey. Literacy rates are falling, unemployment isn't falling, the NHS is struggling, Targets are set by the SNP over and over and missed by a mile yet they and their supporters have the temerity to claim austerity is failed. Staggering beyond belief is what it truly is..
    Just a minute, you say that “the nation as a whole is moving in the right direction” and then in the next statement spell out that Scotland things aren't so rosy. Are we not part of your “whole nation”? Have we not been living under austerity measures too or are you mistakenly thinking we already have FFA. If Scotland is struggling in today's economic climate then surely “the whole nation” is not moving in the right direction? If Scotland is not performing so well under your “whole nation” approach then maybe it's time to do something different that addresses the particular areas where Scotland needs improvement.
    Quote Originally Posted by BetterTogether View Post
    The country voted to remain part of the Union, part of that was the fact they we have a single tax regime across the country yet the SNP are trying independence lite FFA despite the vast majority of credible sources saying it will leave Scotland with financial difficulties. Only this mornings we had to listen to Stewart Hosie stating the requirement for a framework to be in place just in case it all goes horribly wrong. The amendment is alleged to be poorly thought out and not worded very well. Meanwhile there is another amendment going through shortly to drive FFA through at breakneck speed. Neither situation is good for the country as the chances are that in all likelihood it will plunge Scotland into more austerity than the Tories would even have considered in their most wonderous of dreams. .
    There was a promise made to people that there would be more powers “home rule” - a vow was made lol. There is a duty to deliver that as people voted no believing that the promise would be kept.Had people not wanted what the SNP were proposing then they would not have voted to return 56 out of 59 MPs to Westminster. I'm interested to hear that you have seen the amendments and scrutinised them enough to decide they are rubbish. I'll wait and see what they say for myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by BetterTogether View Post
    I could disseminate every critical issue in your long post and draw distinctions between politics, aspirations and the harsh economic realities of some of what you've proposed by needless to say I feel id be wasting my and your time.So I now feel let them have it, if the SNP want to impose FFA on Scotland and all their followers think it's such a wonderful idea why not let them have it. Why should I care when the countries crippled with unsustainable debt, soaring taxes and shrinking public sector and poverty not seen in this country for over a hundred years.
    You know Better Together, you have already pointed out that what we have now isn't working. The UK government s have got us into this mess so we should trust them when they say more of the same will get us out? Why? Because we should know our place? its just the same old same old we have heard you say over and over again. All the "you don't have enough MPs to make a difference so you should shut up" is just the Scotland is too small argument; the "the amendment is said to be poorly drafted" is Scotland is too stupid all over again and this last paragraph is Scotland is too poor. It's boring, it's predictable and its not true. There ARE alternatives and the SNP MPs were voted into office with alternative policies as part of their manifesto. You asked for the alternative policies and I gave you some. I already knew that you don't think they will work so no surprise there but hey ho, just dos you don't like something doesn't mean it's no good.
    Quote Originally Posted by BetterTogether View Post
    I can just go elsewhere and live a happy life and not worry. So it's all yours but always remember be careful what you wish for as you may not like what you get. For when the income tax rate soars, vat soars fuel,prices soar the public sector lay offs increase and unemployment soars I hope you'll still be around to tell everyone that you had a few concerns and not to worry it'll be alright on the night.
    Well If that's what you want to do Better Together then that is your choice. Me? Whatever happens I will still be here working to do the best for Scotland in whatever way I can, whether we have FFA or not, whether we remain part of the Union or eventually become independent. It's worth it.
    Last edited by squidge; 15-Jun-15 at 01:13.

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    Me? Whatever happens I will still be here working to do the best for Scotland in whatever way I can, whether we have FFA or not, whether we remain part of the Union or eventually become independent. It's worth it.

    Last edited by squidge; 15-Jun-15 at 01:13.

    Huurah! At long last something I can fully sign up to on here!

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    Just to set things straight I do not think Scotland is too small, too weak or too stupid.

    What I do think is the SNP is small minded with its polices, it's stirring up of grievances and its shambolic performance when presenting amendments and frankly most of its new MSPs are just puppets put in place by high command a monkey in a suit could of won some of the seats as long as it was in the SNP.

    Attacking the SNP is not attacking Scotland the two are entirely separate and whilst I'm at it they do not own the Saltire and should stop high jacking it for their own ends.

    As it is your amendment is being rejected, you'll be getting your new powers now let's see how those idiots manage to implement them and make a bigger mess of things.
    Last edited by BetterTogether; 15-Jun-15 at 08:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squidge View Post
    Better Together you complain that no one else answers your posts. You demand that people respond to you. There are 27 posts where you and Rob talk to yourselves with no interruption, shabbychic challenges you in one post and you complain that this is a one party state.

    This isn't a one party state BT there are several parties you could vote for and probably did. Just dos you lost and someone else won doesn't make it a one party state. Yours and Robs are the loudest voices, certainly on this thread by miles, make some room for others and you'll get a discussion.
    If me and better togther as you put " talk to each other with no interpution " its becuase hardy anyone else joined in, what am I supposed to do...???

    PS Im having trouble with my PM account and cannot respond to you privatley as regards the rebewables info I promised. Can you e mail me direct

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    Quote Originally Posted by rob murray View Post
    If me and better togther as you put " talk to each other with no interpution " its becuase hardy anyone else joined in, what am I supposed to do...??? PS Im having trouble with my PM account and cannot respond to you privatley as regards the rebewables info I promised. Can you e mail me direct
    Not sure there is any need to apologise for us being the main two proponents of this topic Rob, it always surprises me that we agree on so much when we are so diametrically opposed on our political perspectives. Maybe this shows quite how divisive the SNP is for Scotland.

    I'm always amazed how they feel supporting independence is great for Scotland on one hand because they deserve to be free but in the other hand seem more the eager to become part of a bigger more federal Europe which would strip national identity quicker than being part of the UK ever would.

    It just shows how confused their thinking really is, wanting to distance themselves from their biggest trading partner to snuggle up closer to a comparatively minor one.

    And just for Squidge this is where you read parliamentary bills and amendments there's no big secret.
    http://services.parliament.uk/bills/.../scotland.html

    Finally the SNP is not Scotland it represents approximately one third of the electorate, disliking a party does not mean disliking the country for the many great and wonderful things there are about Scotland, the SNP is not in my opinion one of them. SNP followers may well be Scottish, although quite a few aren't but this doesn't give them the right to claim the Nation as theirs and theirs alone and become arbiters of what constitutes Scottish.
    Last edited by BetterTogether; 15-Jun-15 at 09:46.

  13. #73

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    Im not a nationalist, never have been, yes, we seem to hold diametrically opposite poilitical views, and its hardly our your fault that next to know one joined the thread, I hold the view that they the SNP are the majority party in Scotland and near monopolise Scottish representation at Westminster and if they suggest FFA will lead to economic prosperity then bring it on, I personally jst wnated some meat on the "bones" thats all. I was a bit confused over the process involved, Squidge put me right on the details of which I was completly ignorant on. My simple mind concludes that at the moment the SNP dont want FFA now, they want a phased in approach apparently, ( or rather some want it now others later, pahsed in along with Barnet % reeductions..ie no big bang ) so their ammendment being outvoted today on the grounds of "protecting scottish people from fiscal irresponsibility" as the BBC piece reports ( ie from other parties who will vote it down ) will inevitalby lead to cries that Westminster done them down....( certainly from some quarters ) Yet they dont seem to want it now...or is it a timing issue ?? I dont really know. Its all getting to machieviallian and blurred for me now.

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    Listening to Stewart Hosie speaking on Sunday Politics yesterday it appears they want FFA imposed slowly with an over arching framework put in place before they go it alone.
    Boiling it down into simple speak,it goes a bit like this.

    We want FFA.

    We haven't costed it out but know it's right.

    We Demand FFA because it's right for Scotland.

    We want a clause written in that if we get it all wrong and plunge the Nation into a mire of debt you'll bail us out.

    You're denying the will of the Scottish People if you don't give us everything we want.

    Democracy is only good when it works for us.
    Last edited by BetterTogether; 15-Jun-15 at 10:07.

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    For those interested but not wanting to read all the amendment. Much has been made of things such as PiP, carers allowance, disability living allowance, etc they all become devolved under the Scotland Bill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BetterTogether View Post
    Listening to Stewart Hosie speaking on Sunday Politics yesterday it appears they want FFA imposed slowly with an over arching framework put in place before they go it alone.
    Boiling it down into simple speak,it goes a bit like this.

    We want FFA.

    We haven't costed it out but know it's right.

    We Demand FFA because it's right for Scotland.

    We want a clause written in that if we get it all wrong and plunge the Nation into a mire of debt you'll bail us out.

    You're denying the will of the Scottish People if you don't give us everything we want.

    Democracy is only good when it works for us.
    Firstly, sorry to anyone who thinks this thread is being monopolised, I am exercising my right to respond to the above but BTG can you clarify...".We want a clause written in that if we get it all wrong and plunge the Nation into a mire of debt you'll bail us out". What clause is that, can you point me in the right direction for clarification please, if true then whoever "amended the SCotland act / smith commission "bill" or whatever its called to get this in must have kown that it wouldnt fly...with any UK government or anybody anywhere any time...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rob murray View Post
    Firstly, sorry to anyone who thinks this thread is being monopolised, I am exercising my right to respond to the above but BTG can you clarify...".We want a clause written in that if we get it all wrong and plunge the Nation into a mire of debt you'll bail us out". What clause is that, can you point me in the right direction for clarification please, if true then whoever "amended the SCotland act / smith commission "bill" or whatever its called to get this in must have kown that it wouldnt fly...with any UK government or anybody anywhere any time...
    Hi Rob I shouldn't apologise it's quite clear the thread is being read by the views on it. I've had a few pms from people as well, it appears from discussions I've had that many people feel that unless you're a nationalist it's not worth speaking up, which is a sad day for Scotland, when the majority of the population feel unable to voice their opinions.

    Meanwhile I shall remain as tenacious as always in my support for the Union.

    If you watch The Sunday Politics show, its probably available on iplayer or catch up depending on your viewing capabilities, you'll be able to hear the whole interview with Stewart Hosie SNP, he states that what they want from FFA is a full framework.
    When pushed on what he actually means and tackled about the issues he insists on the UK govt having vetos on the Bill which isn't correct but his terminology but then goes on to wobble quite distinctly when pushed a bit more that part of what he requires is the ability for Scotland to be underwritten by UK Govt if they overspend.
    Currently that limit is set at an annual overspend of 200 Million a year under FFA that would be a drop in the ocean compared to the liabilities Scotland under FFA would be able to incur so would have to be raised and underwritten by UK Govt or else you'd have a position where Scotland could effectively bankrupt itself with no safety net as it stand the current position means that Scotland spends and all debt it's covered.
    If you consider the realities of the situation could the UK Govt allow a part of the Union to spend what it wants and bankrupt itself, the effect across the Union would be disastrous and create a whole plethora of problems.
    It might also be useful if you read through the Scotland Bill ( link provided already in previous post, with amendments ) that way you can make an informed decision.
    I appreciate it does make rather a long read especially with cross referencing the amendments but as you'll be able to see the Bill does give quite considerable new powers to the Scottish Govt on taxation and Welfare, contrary to some of the things that have been said on this thread.
    Last edited by BetterTogether; 15-Jun-15 at 11:43.

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    Rob, Of course we want FFA implemented slowly - a phased approach. What we want is to start that process now and to implement it as soon as it agreement can be reached over a period of time. What is it about that which is a bad thing? It is the right and responsible thing to do because as I have explained time and again FFA is not Independence, it requires much more negotiation and disentangling.

    BT If you truly don't understand why folk who support independence want to remain in the EU then I suggest you either re read the hundreds of posts on that issue of start a new thread. The two views are absolutely compatible. I'm surprised that wanting to remain part of Europe is considered small minded but each to their own.

    I would also suggest that if a monkey in a suit could get elected as an MP then what does that say about the sitting candidates. Politics is changing. it's not sufficient any more to stamp your feet and complain "SNP BAAAD". And as for FFA - we are not getting it. Well there is a surprise. So first they accuse the SNP of not wanting it, then when we ask for it we don't get it. (Shakes head with a wry smile) I might expect my 7 year old and 5 year old to behave that way - I'd certainly be giving them a row for it.

    The smith commission it is then, with its power of veto over everything - we are in for an exciting time

  19. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by BetterTogether View Post
    Hi Rob
    If you watch The Sunday Politics show, its probably available on iplayer or catch up depending on your viewing capabilities, you'll be able to hear the whole interview with Stewart Hosie SNP, he states that what they want from FFA is a full framework.
    When pushed on what he actually means and tackled about the issues he insists on the UK govt having vetos on the Bill which isn't correct but his terminology but then goes on to wobble quite distinctly when pushed a bit more that part of what he requires is the ability for Scotland to be underwritten by UK Govt if they overspend.
    Currently that limit is set at an annual overspend of 200 Million a year under FFA that would be a drop in the ocean compared to the liabilities Scotland under FFA would be able to incur so would have to be raised and underwritten by UK Govt or else you'd have a position where Scotland could effectively bankrupt itself with no safety net as it stand the current position means that Scotland spends and all debt it's covered.
    If you consider the realities of the situation could the UK Govt allow a part of the Union to spend what it wants and bankrupt itself, the effect across the Union would be disastrous and create a whole plethora of problems.
    It might also be useful if you read through the Scotland Bill ( link provided already in previous post, with amendments ) that way you can make an informed decision.
    I appreciate it does make rather a long read especially with cross referencing the amendments but as you'll be able to see the Bill does give quite considerable new powers to the Scottish Govt on taxation and Welfare, contrary to some of the things that have been said on this thread.
    Yep I saw the interview, didnt understand what he meant by a "full fiscal framework", but if he wants a UK safety net propping up FFA then he must know that no government anywhere would agree to that.....asking for delivery of the impossible, my understanding was for FFA now, no propping up, but going it alone, debate seems to be focusing on poor financial forecasts for scotland v give us the levers of power and all will be fine, with the UK government ( and labour / LD's etc ) all supporting the poor financial forecasts for scotland...so no full FFA, with UK governement support. This once again raises the politics of grievance, ie the big boys wouldnt give us what we ( and you in Scotland ) wanted or the UK government acted sensibly to protect Scotland and the UK or the SNP knew that FFA now would be disastrous but staill maintain the posturing, so as to fuel the fires of grievance.......... its all if s, ands and buts... You know what...I cannot make head nor tail of this situation.

  20. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by squidge View Post
    Rob, Of course we want FFA implemented slowly - a phased approach. What we want is to start that process now and to implement it as soon as it agreement can be reached over a period of time. What is it about that which is a bad thing? It is the right and responsible thing to do because as I have explained time and again FFA is not Independence, it requires much more negotiation and disentangling.

    BT If you truly don't understand why folk who support independence want to remain in the EU then I suggest you either re read the hundreds of posts on that issue of start a new thread. The two views are absolutely compatible. I'm surprised that wanting to remain part of Europe is considered small minded but each to their own.

    I would also suggest that if a monkey in a suit could get elected as an MP then what does that say about the sitting candidates. Politics is changing. it's not sufficient any more to stamp your feet and complain "SNP BAAAD". And as for FFA - we are not getting it. Well there is a surprise. So first they accuse the SNP of not wanting it, then when we ask for it we don't get it. (Shakes head with a wry smile) I might expect my 7 year old and 5 year old to behave that way - I'd certainly be giving them a row for it.

    The smith commission it is then, with its power of veto over everything - we are in for an exciting time
    Thanks for enlightening me, you must have posted whilst I was writing my post, a phased approach yes nothing wrong with that, Ive treid deciphering the on line amendments but gave up.....does the smith commission ie ( is it the new Scotland act ? ) presumably after todays vote, really give UK government powers to veto everything, as I thought next year devolved stand alone fiscal powers were being transferred wih no accountability ie the powers would be in Holyrood ??

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