Full Fiscal Autonomy FFA

[rob murray]

I tend to agree it would be good to hear some detail on what they propose but given that John Swinney has so far failed to give any substantive detail, neither has Nicola Sturgeon or any other member of the SNP I find it difficult to believe that the broader points let alone finer detail will be delivered on e org prior to any official announcement.


What we may get though is an awful lot of, what I think, what I'd do, what may possibly just might happen, non of which are the same as official details from the SNP themselves.

ANyone can spout of and accuse sceptics of negativity....the purpose of ths thread is to give people the chance to put meat on the bones...wheres the details...I fail to understand why Swinney or Sturgeon are holding back substantive detail they must have detail. as a citizen of Scotland I have the democratic right to know the economic details.

[rob murray]

Here's a BBC report from yesterday, Kezia Dugdale has had her people do some independent research and claims that Oil would have to be $200 a barrel to pay for everything current oil price is $65 a barrel


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-33092159

Yes but oil prices are very volaitile so this is a worst case scenario, only proves one thing though, that oil prices are inherently unpredictable. Anyway its Labour trying to put the brakes on FFA....they should wrap up and seriously go about their rebuild as they were unanimously ouywitted and ousted at the election. The SNP have the power in Scotland, I want to see action from them not rhetoric, nor time wasting behind FFA complexities ....just gimme the detail. start delivering.

[BetterTogether]

Rob Murray thought this might be useful to you as it's about as recent as you can get on the subject and only discuss's Scotland and FFA
Stewart Hosie SNP and Andrew Neil Discuss FFA.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GEo8Lj3YIpc

[rob murray]

Still no details from SNP folk...why the silence and why vote for a party with a 16 page piece of non content as a manifesto. Now give me the specific details...failure to do so can only tell me that you...SNP supporters dont know and have voted in blind faith...so go on prove me wrong and dont give me guff on FFA disentanglement issues...FFA = economic prosperity...,prove it or admit you voted in blind faith.

[rob murray]

Rob Murray thought this might be useful to you as it's about as recent as you can get on the subject and only discuss's Scotland and FFA
Stewart Hosie SNP and Andrew Neil Discuss FFA.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GEo8Lj3YIpc

Stewart Hosie...complete and utter waffle, completely out his depth...long silences and blames westminster for everything..."give us the tools and levers to create growth" well give it to them Ive no issue with this.... PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION WHERE DOES THE GROWTH COME FROM....hey.... but so what..... the great Scottish economy will prosper with FFA ....oil doesn't matter a whit. Andrew Neil suggests that they will have to raise taxes and cut growth...so SNP are the austerity party...nah that cannot be true, their 16 page manifesto pledges not to have cuts..so revenues to run the state must come from economic activity / economic strategy SO SPELL OUT WHAT IS GOING TO BE DONE.

[BetterTogether]

Not trying to be negative here Rob but if it isn't in the SNPs manifesto, the First Minster, John Swinney,Stewart Hosie or Tommy Shepperd can't answer the questions which you so rightly deserve to have answered then I'm not sure that any one on e org will be able to give an insightful and meaningful answer. It appears that gazing deeply into a crystal ball might be the best route to getting the answers you require.

[rob murray]

What was the song...silence is golden....Im open minded, give the SNP FFA...now wheres the detail....I cannot accept a manifesto of 16 pages of waffly propaganda as serious. Is the Independent office for budgetary responsibility talking through their proverbial over todays budget hole in revenues...what DETAILED economic plans have the SNP in place to counter this ?? If theres none / no real hard thought out details, then any sane person has to conclude, that they are making it up as they go along...NOW PROVE ME WRONG detail.,..detail detail...please supply and dont give me waffle over FFA complexties / aspirations...give us the details

[rob murray]

Not trying to be negative here Rob but if it isn't in the SNPs manifesto, the First Minster, John Swinney,Stewart Hosie or Tommy Shepperd can't answer the questions which you so rightly deserve to have answered then I'm not sure that any one on e org will be able to give an insightful and meaningful answer. It appears that gazing deeply into a crystal ball might be the best route to getting the answers you require.

Yes but loads of people voted for them, so on what basis...not on the manifesto its nothing...so why vote for them....I suspect a mix of disillusionment over labour, LD coalition with tories, a hangover from the referendum, blatant desire for nationalism ( painted brave hearts ) and stealing Labours clothes...promises to curtail anti austerity. Still the desire for detail falls on very deaf ears...and Squidge Ive no desire to get into any debate over FFA complexities as I said previously the only thing that Matters is the economy, thats it, so still await the plans / details behind securing economic growth surely that cannot be hard, at least the LD's spelt out their specifics, after all the vast majority out there voted for them...so come on DETAILS !!!!!

[BetterTogether]

I too am waiting in anticipation for the detailed plan they've got the MSPs 56 out of 59.

O.K they lost a couple of hundred thousand supporters between the referendum and general election 16817989 down to 1454436,but hey they believe that's the majority of the Scottish electorate and gives them the mandate of the people.

So we the rest who didn't vote for them should be treated with some respect I mean their duty as MSPs is to work for all of us not just the people who voted for them.

So how about we get some detail not much to ask really.

Answer on the back of a fag packet in thick felt pen will do.

Just please give us some detail.

[rob murray]

Exactly... the silence here is golden....not one person bar squidge, who is more caught up with the mechanics of FFA disentanglement, has contributed..so wheres the detail...

[BetterTogether]

Exactly... the silence here is golden....not one person bar squidge, who is more caught up with the mechanics of FFA disentanglement, has contributed..so wheres the detail...

The problem is you can't have something that just doesn't exist.

There is no detail, just an idea, a dream, a whisper heard on a still evenings breeze.

Sob sob

I'm getting all emotional now and feeling like wrapping myself in a Saltire.


Cry Freeeeeeedom

[squidge]

Do you know what - Im not even going to bother. 20 odd posts of self important sarcastic rubbish suggest to me that I am wasting my time, effort and patience.i have infinite patience - i have five children after all - but even I cant be bothered wading through 30 posts of nonsense on this thread tonight. I might come back to it in the morning but ill see if it suits ME to do so as opposed to acquiesing to the stamped feet and demands of such a self important pair as you guys. In the meantime - take a good look at yourselves, read what you have written and wonder why you no one wants to engage with either of you. I have better things to do with my time. Anyone actually interested in FFA can PM me for a discussion or add me as a facebook friend to pick up on the subject there. If you need my name let me know.

Goodnight

[BetterTogether]

With no disrespect I fail to see how you can know more about FFA than any of the above mentioned SNP minsters or know more than the manifesto.

If you do have any factual knowledge of what the SNP intends to do please enlighten us, but I'd respectfully suggest you have no verifiable quantifiable information to impart to us on such an important topic.

We can hold a long discussion on the pros and cons of FFA but that's pretty much neither her nor there what I, you or the rest of Scotlands personal opinions are in fact are meaningless.

What we require and deserve is actual leadership, something official we can sit and read, digest at leisure and make considered choices about.

If you do have this information please feel free to impart it to us not by PM but here publicly as we are part of the electorate and deserve to be dealt with openly and honestly on such important matters.

Why should we the people of Scotland have to approach on bended knee to request such information why isn't it available openly, freely ,fairly in this new exciting progressive Scotland.

[rob murray]

Do you know what - Im not even going to bother. 20 odd posts of self important sarcastic rubbish suggest to me that I am wasting my time, effort and patience.i have infinite patience - i have five children after all - but even I cant be bothered wading through 30 posts of nonsense on this thread tonight. I might come back to it in the morning but ill see if it suits ME to do so as opposed to acquiesing to the stamped feet and demands of such a self important pair as you guys. In the meantime - take a good look at yourselves, read what you have written and wonder why you no one wants to engage with either of you. I have better things to do with my time. Anyone actually interested in FFA can PM me for a discussion or add me as a facebook friend to pick up on the subject there. If you need my name let me know.

Goodnight

Ok youve played your hand...Ive simply asked for details and politely and you know what, got nowt back, truth hurts eh... a so called manifesto that you referred me to has 16 pages of waffle backed up by nothing of any substance, which you cannot supply, period, compare the SNP manifesto with the LD's for example,and once gain resort to juvenile insults... so you go and play with your toys then. You are a typical zealot...can you not understand basic english...I have said bring on FFA the sooner the better..and mean it...what dont you get ?? . but need to know some details behind the economics required to deliver the enhanced economic performance that Swinney is on record stating that will be delivered..the manifesto doesn't say anything so youve a damn cheek wummen to paraphrase your darling Alexi calling me "self important".... pot calling kettle black eh ! Absolutely pointless speaking to you

[Tig]

Do you know what - Im not even going to bother. 20 odd posts of self important sarcastic rubbish suggest to me that I am wasting my time, effort and patience.i have infinite patience - i have five children after all - but even I cant be bothered wading through 30 posts of nonsense on this thread tonight. I might come back to it in the morning but ill see if it suits ME to do so as opposed to acquiesing to the stamped feet and demands of such a self important pair as you guys. In the meantime - take a good look at yourselves, read what you have written and wonder why you no one wants to engage with either of you. I have better things to do with my time. Anyone actually interested in FFA can PM me for a discussion or add me as a facebook friend to pick up on the subject there. If you need my name let me know. Goodnight

That is a shame Squidge that you are not responding I was looking forward to your reply. I may not post but I've been following the thread with interest.

[rob murray]

That is a shame Squidge that you are not responding I was looking forward to your reply. I may not post but I've been following the thread with interest.

Shes obviously annoyed that some one has asked for specifics, ive never insulted her, from from it she raised some interesting points on the complexities of FFA, but it seems if you dont see things her way then the dummys spat. All I asked for was some details as blind faith and hot air doesn't build prosperity...nothing wrong with that. So far nothing has been supplied just check the thread

[rob murray]

Just to repeate my original post see below...nothing self important about it

Seemingly, Scotland's Deputy First MinisterJohn Swinney has backed his party's bid to have Full Fiscal Autonomy (FFA)included in the Scotland Bill.
As he put it, "The moral of the story is where we can exercise distinctiveeconomic policies in Scotland, we can transform the economic performance ofthis country, and for me that is what fiscal autonomy is all about."
Ok…that good………. the SNP want FFA, they should get it, then the shoutingis over ( bar for another independence referendum ) and we can see how we all get on and the sooner the better. Make a kirk or a mill of it, either way we willt hen see what / why economic policies they introduce and if they will transform the Scottish economy ( ok Swinney has no details or given no real details on an economic growth strategy but I assume that he must have or why shout for FFA ) . No one will ever know if the SNP with FFA can transform economic performance unless they actually get FFA, then we will all see, good economic performance /management will cement the SNP as the party of Scotland, a poor performance,involving cuts / mis management / poor economic growth, will be entirely down to them ( no Westminster to blame ) and like any other party if they are not successful, they will pay the price through the ballot box. So on those grounds I support FFA for Scotland....but Id like some more specific details, so if anyone knows, jump into this thread and give an indication of what the SNP plan

[squidge]

Shes obviously annoyed that some one has asked for specifics, ive never insulted her, from from it she raised some interesting points on the complexities of FFA, but it seems if you dont see things her way then the dummys spat. All I asked for was some details as blind faith and hot air doesn't build prosperity...nothing wrong with that. So far nothing has been supplied just check the thread

#

How am I supposed to respond to 27 posts? YOu and BT just talk to yourselves. Did i spit the dummy out absolutely i did. 27 bloody posts demanding answers NOW. I have a life you know.

[squidge]

Just to repeate my original post see below...nothing self important about it

Seemingly, Scotland's Deputy First MinisterJohn Swinney has backed his party's bid to have Full Fiscal Autonomy (FFA)included in the Scotland Bill.
As he put it, "The moral of the story is where we can exercise distinctiveeconomic policies in Scotland, we can transform the economic performance ofthis country, and for me that is what fiscal autonomy is all about."
Ok…that good………. the SNP want FFA, they should get it, then the shoutingis over ( bar for another independence referendum ) and we can see how we all get on and the sooner the better. Make a kirk or a mill of it, either way we willt hen see what / why economic policies they introduce and if they will transform the Scottish economy ( ok Swinney has no details or given no real details on an economic growth strategy but I assume that he must have or why shout for FFA ) . No one will ever know if the SNP with FFA can transform economic performance unless they actually get FFA, then we will all see, good economic performance /management will cement the SNP as the party of Scotland, a poor performance,involving cuts / mis management / poor economic growth, will be entirely down to them ( no Westminster to blame ) and like any other party if they are not successful, they will pay the price through the ballot box. So on those grounds I support FFA for Scotland....but Id like some more specific details, so if anyone knows, jump into this thread and give an indication of what the SNP plan

Well now if we are starting again....

That is absolutely what is meant by full fiscal autonomy Rob - to have all the levers that enable Scotland to grow its own economy in the best way for Scotland. The Smith Commission does not allow that. It is right to say that we have had some control over tax for some considerable time and not used that control but there are good reasons why we haven't done that. Mainly because we could only raise the basic rate of income tax only which would impact on the lowest paid in society and leave those on higher wages with no extra responsibility. That is contrary to what the SNP have talked about for the last ten years. That was one of the problems with Labour's offer of tax powers before the referendum - they would allow Scotland to increase taxes but not decrease them. If we are to have control over taxation then that has to BE control - rates, bands, and the ablity to vary it as is necessary.

Full Fiscal Autonomy isnt like Independence - It depends on all sorts of things which at first thought would not seem to be important in FFA. For example, in order to properly have control of the welfare budget we will also need control of Scottish Jobcentreplus offices. Without that we cant influence how benefits are delivered for example or how sanctions are implemented which will impact on Welfare spending. With independence EVERYTHING is passed over on a specific date and with FFA there needs to be an understanding of how spending and budgets are impacted by everything else. And those other things will also need to be passed for control to the Scottish Government. That may take some time to negotiate and work out.

You talk about cuts. The thing about cuts is that with FFA the Scottish Government can make decisions on where those cuts are to be implemented - just like the tax increases I was talking about before, but that also depends on having more influence over other things like the amount that Scotland is charged for UK wide projects. As an example of this we can look at the projects that Scotland is obliged to contribute today - lets say Crossrail. Cross Rail is a project based in London, affecting London and yet Scotland has to contribute to that project. There are others too - I dont have an issue with Scotland contributing to the repairs to the Houses of Parliament for example but i dont think that we shoud be contributing to things like Cross rail or HS2 when they dont impact at all on Scotland. These things will need to be negotiated and a new protocol decided upon where Scotland has some control rather than no control. If we arent spending on those sorts of projects then we have more money to spend in Scotland to help us to avoid cuts. If we have full fiscal autonomy then this issue needs to be up for negotiation which it is not at the moment.

These are a couple of examples which show that FFA is more complicated that simply handing over the purse and saying "here you go - you do the shopping" and more complicated that Independence would have been. We are not getting Independence any time soon - that is clear and before anyone jumps on me and suggests that i am moaning and complaining and whining about it I am not. I am simply recognising that FFA is different than Independence and that we all need to understand that when discussing FFA because these are the things that prevent FFA happening overnight.

I think we will need to see the details of the amendment before we can talk specifics so I look forward to next week. We do however already have the SNP manifesto from the General Elecction which sets out what the SNP wants to achieve for Scotland and is a good place to start if you are looking for specifics. If the amendment is passed next week then we should see that reflected in the Manifesto for Holyrood and so build on the 2015 manifesto to get more of the specifics that you are looking for. This amendment if passed is just the start of what will be a very long process

[rob murray]

#

How am I supposed to respond to 27 posts? YOu and BT just talk to yourselves. Did i spit the dummy out absolutely i did. 27 bloody posts demanding answers NOW. I have a life you know.

Well well, know one expected you to respond to 27 posts...I simply asked anyone, yes anyone, on an open forum if they had economic details as you have to admit there is none in the 16 page manifesto apart from c 200 words, you told me to check the manifesto out, we all have lives as well and we are all "equally important".