Full Fiscal Autonomy FFA

[rob murray]

Seemingly, Scotland's Deputy First MinisterJohn Swinney has backed his party's bid to have Full Fiscal Autonomy (FFA)included in the Scotland Bill.
As he put it, "The moral of the story is where we can exercise distinctiveeconomic policies in Scotland, we can transform the economic performance ofthis country, and for me that is what fiscal autonomy is all about."
Ok…that good………. the SNP want FFA, they should get it, then the shoutingis over ( bar for another independence referendum ) and we can see how we all get on and the sooner the better. Make a kirk or a mill of it, either way we willt hen see what / why economic policies they introduce and if they will transform the Scottish economy ( ok Swinney has no details or given no real details on an economic growth strategy but I assume that he must have or why shout for FFA ) . No one will ever know if the SNP with FFA can transform economic performance unless they actually get FFA, then we will all see, good economic performance /management will cement the SNP as the party of Scotland, a poor performance,involving cuts / mis management / poor economic growth, will be entirely down to them ( no Westminster to blame ) and like any other party if they are not successful, they will pay the price through the ballot box. So on those grounds I support FFA for Scotland....but Id like some more specific details, so if anyone knows, jump into this thread and give an indication of what the SNP plan

[squidge]

That is absolutely what is meant by full fiscal autonomy Rob - to have all the levers that enable Scotland to grow its own economy in the best way for Scotland. The Smith Commission does not allow that. It is right to say that we have had some control over tax for some considerable time and not used that control but there are good reasons why we haven't done that. Mainly because we could only raise the basic rate of income tax only which would impact on the lowest paid in society and leave those on higher wages with no extra responsibility. That is contrary to what the SNP have talked about for the last ten years. That was one of the problems with Labour's offer of tax powers before the referendum - they would allow Scotland to increase taxes but not decrease them. If we are to have control over taxation then that has to BE control - rates, bands, and the ablity to vary it as is necessary.

Full Fiscal Autonomy isnt like Independence - It depends on all sorts of things which at first thought would not seem to be important in FFA. For example, in order to properly have control of the welfare budget we will also need control of Scottish Jobcentreplus offices. Without that we cant influence how benefits are delivered for example or how sanctions are implemented which will impact on Welfare spending. With independence EVERYTHING is passed over on a specific date and with FFA there needs to be an understanding of how spending and budgets are impacted by everything else. And those other things will also need to be passed for control to the Scottish Government. That may take some time to negotiate and work out.

You talk about cuts. The thing about cuts is that with FFA the Scottish Government can make decisions on where those cuts are to be implemented - just like the tax increases I was talking about before, but that also depends on having more influence over other things like the amount that Scotland is charged for UK wide projects. As an example of this we can look at the projects that Scotland is obliged to contribute today - lets say Crossrail. Cross Rail is a project based in London, affecting London and yet Scotland has to contribute to that project. There are others too - I dont have an issue with Scotland contributing to the repairs to the Houses of Parliament for example but i dont think that we shoud be contributing to things like Cross rail or HS2 when they dont impact at all on Scotland. These things will need to be negotiated and a new protocol decided upon where Scotland has some control rather than no control. If we arent spending on those sorts of projects then we have more money to spend in Scotland to help us to avoid cuts. If we have full fiscal autonomy then this issue needs to be up for negotiation which it is not at the moment.

These are a couple of examples which show that FFA is more complicated that simply handing over the purse and saying "here you go - you do the shopping" and more complicated that Independence would have been. We are not getting Independence any time soon - that is clear and before anyone jumps on me and suggests that i am moaning and complaining and whining about it I am not. I am simply recognising that FFA is different than Independence and that we all need to understand that when discussing FFA because these are the things that prevent FFA happening overnight.

I think we will need to see the details of the amendment before we can talk specifics so I look forward to next week. We do however already have the SNP manifesto from the General Elecction which sets out what the SNP wants to achieve for Scotland and is a good place to start if you are looking for specifics. If the amendment is passed next week then we should see that reflected in the Manifesto for Holyrood and so build on the 2015 manifesto to get more of the specifics that you are looking for. This amendment if passed is just the start of what will be a very long process

[rob murray]

That is absolutely what is meant by full fiscal autonomy Rob - to have all the levers that enable Scotland to grow its own economy in the best way for Scotland. The Smith Commission does not allow that. It is right to say that we have had some control over tax for some considerable time and not used that control but there are good reasons why we haven't done that. Mainly because we could only raise the basic rate of income tax only which would impact on the lowest paid in society and leave those on higher wages with no extra responsibility. That is contrary to what the SNP have talked about for the last ten years. That was one of the problems with Labour's offer of tax powers before the referendum - they would allow Scotland to increase taxes but not decrease them. If we are to have control over taxation then that has to BE control - rates, bands, and the ablity to vary it as is necessary : NO NEED TO GO INTO SMITH COMMISSION...i HAVE STATED BRING ON ffa NOW

Full Fiscal Autonomy isnt like Independence - It depends on all sorts of things which at first thought would not seem to be important in FFA. For example, in order to properly have control of the welfare budget we will also need control of Scottish Jobcentreplus offices. Without that we cant influence how benefits are delivered for example or how sanctions are implemented which will impact on Welfare spending. With independence EVERYTHING is passed over on a specific date and with FFA there needs to be an understanding of how spending and budgets are impacted by everything else. And those other things will also need to be passed for control to the Scottish Government. That may take some time to negotiate and work out. OK DIDNT UNDERSTAND HAT THANKS FOR CLARIFICATION

You talk about cuts. IM NOT TALKING ABOUT CUTS, LETS BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR ON THAT : SWINNEY HAS SAID THE FFA WILL ENHANCE ECONOMIC PERFROMANCE IN SCOTLAND, A BETTER ECONOMY = MORE TAX REVENUE / MONEY TO INVEST ( IN RENEWABLES ) MORE PEOPLE EMPLOYED. LESS NEED FOR BENFITS / WELFARE...READ THE POST IM TALKING ABOUT HOW FFA CAN DELIVER ECONOMIC GROWTH AND PROSPERITY The thing about cuts is that with FFA the Scottish Government can make decisions on where those cuts are to be implemented - just like the tax increases I was talking about before, but that also depends on having more influence over other things like the amount that Scotland is charged for UK wide projects. As an example of this we can look at the projects that Scotland is obliged to contribute today - lets say Crossrail. Cross Rail is a project based in London, affecting London and yet Scotland has to contribute to that project. There are others too - I dont have an issue with Scotland contributing to the repairs to the Houses of Parliament for example WHY WASTE MONEY ON THIS ? but i dont think that we shoud be contributing to things like Cross rail or HS2 when they dont impact at all on Scotland. AGREED These things will need to be negotiated and a new protocol decided upon where Scotland has some control rather than no control. If we arent spending on those sorts of projects then we have more money to spend in Scotland to help us to avoid cuts THE KEY ISSUE IM ON ABOUT IS ECONOMIC GROWTH GET THAT RIGHT AND THERE IS NO NEED FOR CUTS BY CREATING A HIGH VALUE HIGH WAGE, LOW TAX ECONOMY FAIR TO ALL. If we have full fiscal autonomy then this issue needs to be up for negotiation which it is not at the moment. OK THANKS FOR CLARIFICATION

These are a couple of examples which show that FFA is more complicated that simply handing over the purse and saying "here you go - you do the shopping" and more complicated that Independence would have been. We are not getting Independence any time soon - that is clear and before anyone jumps on me and suggests that i am moaning and complaining and whining about it I am not. I am simply recognising that FFA is different than Independence and that we all need to understand that when discussing FFA because these are the things that prevent FFA happening overnight. OK BUT ECONOMIC GROWTH CAN START NOW..WHAT AREAS OF THE ECONOMY ARE TARGETED AND WHY ? AS CLINTON PUT IT IN 1992 RUNNING FOR ELECTIO AND DESPITE ALL ODDS WINNING...."ITS THE ECONOMY STUPID" ( NOT INFERRING YOUR STUPID THIS WAS HIS CAMPAIGN SLOGAN )

I think we will need to see the details of the amendment before we can talk specifics so I look forward to next week. We do however already have the SNP manifesto from the General Elecction which sets out what the SNP wants to achieve for Scotland and is a good place to start if you are looking for specifics. CAN YOU SUMMARISE THEM PLEASE I DONT HAVE THE MANIFESTO If the amendment is passed next week then we should see that reflected in the Manifesto for Holyrood and so build on the 2015 manifesto to get more of the specifics that you are looking for. This amendment if passed is just the start of what will be a very long process

ACCEPTED THAT SOME ISSUES YOU OUT LINE ARE GOING TO BE COMPLICATED, BUT NONETHELESS YOU CANNOT TAKE YOUR EYE OF THE BALL, THE COUNTRY HAS TO BE GOVERNED / ECONOMIC GROWTH HAS TO BE CREATED AND MANAGED A BALANCE HAS TO BE STRUCK HERE AS IT SOUNDS LIKE THERE IS GONNA BE A HELL OF A LOT OF TIME INVOLVED IN DISENTANGLING, TIME THAT MUST BE SPENT ON THE ECONOMY

Many thanks an interesting and for me informed post, if you could summarise economic growth plans for me, even in bullet points that will be even better alleviate my fears that as I say disentangling etc is going to eat up precious time

[squidge]

I have sports day today Rob so it will be tonight but I will respond to your post. Probably after I get two over excited littlies to bed

[rob murray]

I have sports day today Rob so it will be tonight but I will respond to your post. Probably after I get two over excited littlies to bed

CHeers I have a lot of info on renewables for you will need to post to you / or send by e mail if you can PM me your preferance

[rob murray]

Some interesting manifesto facts : most coverage to economic growth / issues Liberal Democrats, worst SNP, lenghtiest is Labour least content is SNP : now in the absence of anything detailed in the SNP manifesto ( come on Squidge explain that to me ! ) , and seeing theyve got the power and we all want to see progress why dont they just adopt / nick Lib Dem proposals which are by far and away the best of all 4 parties ( Greens I never looked at..) LD's actually shocked me, absolute spot on detail..I must confess to never actually having read the major manifestos, but come on SNP = 16 pages / 200 words on economic related matters...do they think people are too thick to take in more ? So once again SNP supporters, can you fill in the blanks for me, bring on FFA...never mind the "complexities inherent in FFA...........wheres the economic strategy / wheres the detail, cos theres none in the manifesto ?

1 Laboursmanifesto 86 pages : Relative to theeconomy : Building an economy that works forworking people... 16 pages of detail
http://www.labour.org.uk/page/-/BritainCanBeBetter-TheLabourPartyManifesto2015.pdf
2 ScottishConservative manifesto : 74 pages Relative to the economy : 4 pages on A strong economy to help you andyour family, jobs for all 6 pages 10pages in total
http://www.scottishconservatives.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Scottish-Manifesto_GE15.pdf
3 SNP manifesto:16 pages : Relative to the economy : about 200 words
http://www.snp.org/sites/default/files/page/file/04_16d_snp_election_manifesto_290x280x.pdf
4 Libdem manifesto 83 pages : relative to the economy : 26 pages covering below
Growth and jobs
Growing 1,000 extra businesses withinvestment from Regional Development Banks
Making Scotland the most digitallyconnected region in Europe
Making Scotland the world leader inscience and research
Helping create the conditions to growScotland’s exports
Supporting and developing Scotland as acountry that treasures innovation and creativity
Reforming procurement to ensure Scottishcompanies can compete for work
Cutting regulation by a quarter to helpbusinesses grow
Giving unemployed young people thechance of work experience, internship, apprenticeship or volunteering
Growing a healthy rural economy

[rob murray]

OK Ive had a quick squint at the SNP manifesto...all 16 pages http://www.snp.org/sites/default/fil...o_290x280x.pdf so didnt take long, only reference to economic growth I can see is below

A focus on job creation

We will support targeted reductions to employer’s National
Insurance contributions to support job creation and theextension of the Living Wage.
We will support an increase in the Employment Allowance
from £2,000 per business per year to £6,000 per business
peryear, reducing the cost of creating and maintaining jobs.
In the meantime, we will prioritise devolution of powers
over employment policy, including the minimum wage,
welfare, business taxes, national insurance and equality
policy - the powers we need to create jobs, grow revenues
andlift people out of poverty.

Thats all...not much substance here, whats so ever : reduce employer NI costs, fine, but unless an employer has a need for staff ( ie through demand growth ) this wont create jobs, ditto employment allowance, there needs to a demand for a firms goods/ services before people can be taken on.
"including the minimum wage,welfare, business taxes, national insurance ( these last 2 are repeated ) and equality policy ( we have laws on equality so whats this about ? ) - the powers we need to create jobs, grow revenues and lift people out of poverty". All what I would call aspirational, I was looking for stuff like targeting export markets and supporting companies through incentives to get out there, generous R and D incentives, supporting business start up ( ie low rates, wage subsidies, tax holidays...incentives to get people to start businesses which will create wealth and employ people ) None of that is there, the supposition is that low NI employer conts, employment allowances, business taxes by themselves will create jobs....they wont, governments dont create jobs, they can influence the creation of jobs ( ie what is in the manifesto is bog standard stuff based on the latter premise ) but people ultimatly create jobs and job creation is based on gowrth / high demand levels. I was surprised to see nothing along the lines of " our desire is to support the creation of a high value, high wage, low tax economy capable of competing in global markets"...thats what will lift people out of poverty.

Sorry but their is no detail nor any specifics in what is a very bland document.