Full Fiscal Autonomy FFA

[squidge]

You miss the point a bit though BT - the point of having FFA is not to run things exactly as they are now, like a branch office of UKPLC. We might pay higher taxes, we might pay lower taxes. We might have similar services we may do things differently. The point is that with FFA we get much more of a say in what happens So that the next time we return 95% of MPs from the same party - whether that is SNP, labour, Green, Tory or whatever other party pops up to fill the vacuum then they get to implement the changes that they want to implement and that we elected then for. The figures you show pre suppose that we get the purse but have to keep the same shopping list. We don't.

[squidge]

Rob, I pm'd you my email address.

Edit - or I would have done if it hadn't bounced back!!!! Empty your inbox lol

[BetterTogether]

You miss the point a bit though BT - the point of having FFA is not to run things exactly as they are now, like a branch office of UKPLC. We might pay higher taxes, we might pay lower taxes. We might have similar services we may do things differently. The point is that with FFA we get much more of a say in what happens So that the next time we return 95% of MPs from the same party - whether that is SNP, labour, Green, Tory or whatever other party pops up to fill the vacuum then they get to implement the changes that they want to implement and that we elected then for. The figures you show pre suppose that we get the purse but have to keep the same shopping list. We don't.

You're quite correct that if FFA is implemented that any future party that has a majority within Holyrood will be able to make policy as they choose regarding funding the country on that I can agree with you with no issue at all.

You're also quite correct in saying we could raise or lower taxes as we saw fit and may have similar services or change them completely.

Non of those are really in question or really deal with the problem.

If Scotland wishes to maintain the public services it currently has for the next 20 yrs and does not want to plunge the country into huge levels of debt then it requires taxes to be raised.

In many of your posts you discuss quite eloquently increasing services and investing in infrastructure.

That is money that would have to be borrowed if not raised in taxation which means that the countries debt would increase exponentially.
You can't have a richer more prosperous country with higher wages,lower taxes a larger public sector unless you plunge it into a mountain of debt, which has to be repaid at some stage.
We have many examples globally of countries that have increased their debt without laying sound foundations for repaying it and do not possess an economy that can comfortably sustain it.
This isn't about party politics as the same decisions would be faced by whomever runs Scotland.

There is a reality at play if Scotland gets FFA in the short term it will be a poorer country for it.

I'd be more than happy if you can provide me with some economic forecast that shows otherwise.

If this where the corporate world and the SNP where proposing a change in direction for that corporation without having done all their homework and without being able to present hard facts and figures that coherently back up their supposition, they would be laughed out of the boardroom.

This isn't a corporate entity it's far larger, far more complex so surely the SNP have done their homework, consultation must of been undertaken, economic advisors employed to present their findings. So why is it non of that groundwork is available for public consumption.

[BetterTogether]

A nice article from the Scotsman on FFA and proposed Amendments

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...uble-1-3801144

[Shabbychic]

A nice article from the Scotsman on FFA and proposed Amendments

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...uble-1-3801144

An even nicer article from Business Scotland on FFA.

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk...scal-autonomy/

[BetterTogether]

An even nicer article from Business Scotland on FFA.http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk...scal-autonomy/

Much as I'd like to take businessforscotland seriously they aren't really representative of major business within Scotland that actually do business across the UK or Globally. I do believe and will try and find the article that they are a group made up of single traders, hairdressers and companies that have neglible turnover.

[BetterTogether]

Here it is a break down of who business for Scotland actually are and what they actually do.http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/201...represent.html

Hardly representative of Scotlands major employers in fact hardly representative of the middle ranking group of employers.

[squidge]

There are key ways in which Scotland could do things differently with the economy if it had FFA, things that aren't being done now or that with controls over raising our own money and spending and investing our own money we could see the economy grow and there is plenty of evidence out there to support different strategies to the austerity one we see from the Tories.

We have been talking about investing in capital projects to help grow the economy. The Scottish Government has been doing that already. This works in several ways, it creates jobs and therefore wealth, it creates confidence in investors that Scotland is a forward thinking and growing economy and therefore a good place to invest for example. There are figures from various sources which show how this works but Civil Engineering industry figures show that for every £1 billion of investments in infrastructure GDP increases by £1.3 billion and there is a knock on in that, as it creates a more competitive environment for business then it gives an economic benefit of £2.8 billion as more companies see Scotland as a place to invest and create work. We may need to borrow to do that, just like you may need to borrow on a mortgage to replace a failing roof and increase the value of your house. That might lead to increased repayments or taking longer to pay the mortgage back but you would reckon the benefits are worth it. Also just like your failing roof - the work is absolutely necessary. That's a bit simplistic but it serves an illustrative purpose. Borrowing to invest in capital projects is worth it for the payback in the terms of benefits to the economy. We were talking in the post about the NHS of the need for better infrastructure and this is a way to ensure that we do that.

I talk about inequality often as a welfare issue but it's an economic issue too. Investment in childcare increases the number of parents able to work, reduces the welfare bill and improves employment levels. Better education, ensuring that children live in homes where they are getting enough food, warmth and a place to study and grow. Where poverty grows educational attainment falls. Better support and encouragement to move people into work and high quality jobs programmes are all needed to create a vibrant, educated and work ready population. The Scottish government has had much better success with its community jobs fund and modern apprenticeships, than the appalling parody of a work programme that the Tories have in place. Changing the way we mange benefits would reduce costs, improve outcomes and increase people moving into work with very little expense. In fact the SNP are committed to stopping the roll out of the massively massively expensive white elephant that is universal Credit and the utter waste of money that the DLA replacement PIP is turning out to be. Just doing this would reduce spending in Scotland without making one single cut . By reducing inequality we are able to contribute to growing our economy. A fairer society isn't just a pipe dream of a woolly liberal, it's a necessity if we want the strongest possible economy.

Supporting business is of course key, the Scottish Government is committed to staying in Europe and it is massively important for all sorts of businesses that we do so. Scotland must grow its exports and its “brand” to be successful. The referendum turned up information to show that Britains embassies abroad charge Scotland for promoting whisky. What's that all about? In addition, Scotland’s whisky exports and the duty paid for those exports are not credited to Scotland's accounts as it stands at the moment. They don't appear on the figures for Scotland. That would change. The SNP has dropped its commitment to a reduction in corporation tax and confirms its commitment to SME's in its manifesto. It has promised a better fairer tax regime in everything it has put out for the last ten years, ensuring that there is no avoidance and better targeted investment. We need the Amazons of this world I'm sure but we also need the smaller companies to have the opportunity to grow and we could do this through changing the tax regime.

We also need to be innovative. We need to encourage research and development particularly in the green economy, in renewables, green energy and so on. Now I know nothing much about energy – as you will see I have been in a conversation with Rob about this - but there are clearly issues and opportunities to be grabbed. The Scottish Government is committed to better investment but we have work to do to see how we can do this better. I'm not simply talking about wind either. I tend to think we need to change our approach to how we use wind energy. In Europe it appears many countries encourage small developments rather than The large windfarms we see here. So each village has its own windmills and they seem much happier with that than we do here. Where my parents live they have three windmills servicing a number of scattered villages and they are really positive about them. There was an attempt to do something similar on the Black Isle recently but it failed to get enough support. Maybe Rob can talk to us about these issues. I know I haven't talked about oil. But with or without oil Scotland has the ability to do all the things I talked about with FFA. Without FFA it can only do a small bit and even with FFA we can't do as much as we could have with Independence.

Finally and I knew this was going to be a long one but I have to remind you of this. FFA is not independence. Scotland with FFA will not be in a position to do all this stuff at once or maybe even never. This is why there is little actual detail. Some of the things I have spoken about – like ending the roll out of PIP, like the investments proposed for capital projects are there already. Reinstating the 50p tax rate, closing tax loopholes are also proposed but even these may be difficult. It all depends on what the UK lets us have. Just like we had to ask for the money to offset the bedroom tax because we don't have permission from WM to abolish it FFA is dependent on getting permission from the government.

Even with FFA there will still continue to need to be a financial settlement every single year as we negotiate how much we have we to pay Westminster for x or y; for which project we need to contribute towards; for how we have our voices heard in Europe; to ensure that things like the CAP funding reaches our farmers and isn't held onto by Westminster as it is being now – all £135 million of it; how our ministers are included in things like fisheries negotiations – Richard Lochhead, the longest serving fisheries minister in Europe - is excluded from those negotiations at the moment, that can't happen if we have FFA. I have massive concerns about FFA but we need control over tax, spending and borrowing if we are to do ANYTHING to move Scotland in the direction that people voted for when they sent 56 SNP MPs to Westminster.

[Shabbychic]

Much as I'd like to take businessforscotland seriously they aren't really representative of major business within Scotland that actually do business across the UK or Globally. I do believe and will try and find the article that they are a group made up of single traders, hairdressers and companies that have neglible turnover.

Here it is a break down of who business for Scotland actually are and what they actually do.http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/201...represent.html

Hardly representative of Scotlands major employers in fact hardly representative of the middle ranking group of employers.

This is why folks find there is little point in entering a discussion with you. You ask a question, then eagerly await a response so that you can tear it to shreds to prove you are right. You have no interest at all in seeing anyone else's point of view, or entering into a meaningful discussion. You are just like the unionist parties who, instead of putting forward what they stand for, spend all their time slating the SNP.

As for the above, the link I left was not about who Business for Scotland are made up of, but in relation to the article and what this thread is supposed to be about, namely FFA. You quite happily quote from places like The Scotsman, and then expect to be taken seriously, while dissing everyone else.