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Thread: James Robertson/Robeson & Elizabeth McDonald-Canisbay & Thurso

  1. #21

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    Hi Mamie and Tricia

    Thanks for all your comments on these resurrected threads, and sorry for my delay in replying.

    Tricia has given me incontrovertible evidence I had the wrong James Robertson (b abt 1833) in Caithness and I have removed him and Elizabeth Gray (+ relatives) from my tree on Ancestry. This tree has been private for a while. Other members on Ancestry copied parts of my tree (including my grandfather!) and although I contacted them to share info, I never received any replies.

    My brother and I are sure we were told that that both James Robertson and Eliza MacDonald came from Caithness - she definitely did.

    James' birth (calculated from English death cert) is abt 1833. I have his family on censuses - Berwick then various places in Durham down to 1911. I know these to be correct.

    I made too many assumptions about James in Caithness though. The family story was one of great poverty, scraping a living from the land, hence the move south via Aberdeen (where they married in 1854) and Berwick (1861). As my father spoke of them living in the Thurso area (Eliza's family) and also the Pentland Firth, I thought it likely that James' birthplace might have been Canisbay.

    When I looked at the James Robertsons born c 1833 in Caithness, most seemed implausible.

    Not the son of Patrick and Euphemia Robertson (teachers) who seem to have left caithness by 1851. We are all teachers in my family, but the ancestral story was of farming.

    Not the grandson of the Calders - he's still there in 1861.

    Not the son of Donald and Barbara Simpson - married Catherine Gair 1857.

    Not the son of James and Isabella - still in Caithness in 1861.

    etc.

    And now I know he was not the son of William Robertson and Elizabeth Gray - this is where I made my mistake as the probably widowed cottager Elizabeth, living in Canisbay, fitted the profile of the family story, although I had no proof.

    I don't have time to do any searching atm, but perhaps my father was wrong, or did not know all the facts about his grandfather coming from Caithness. I have often wondered why they married in Aberdeen and not Caithness. Their first recorded son was born the following year and named for Eliza's father Hugh, it seems. The next two were James and William. They had eight sons but no daughters to indicate a possible naming pattern on the maternal side.

    Thank you so much for your suggestions and interest - and apologies for appropriating the wrong JR!

    Helen

  2. #22

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    Hi Tricia

    Just pasting this from another thread as a reply as I'm about to scrape snow off the car!


    Quote Originally Posted by helenwyler View Post
    Hi Mamie and Tricia

    Thanks for all your comments on these resurrected threads, and sorry for my delay in replying.

    Tricia has given me incontrovertible evidence I had the wrong James Robertson (b abt 1833) in Caithness and I have removed him and Elizabeth Gray (+ relatives) from my tree on Ancestry. This tree has been private for a while. Other members on Ancestry copied parts of my tree (including my grandfather!) and although I contacted them to share info, I never received any replies.

    My brother and I are sure we were told that that both James Robertson and Eliza MacDonald came from Caithness - she definitely did.

    James' birth (calculated from English death cert) is abt 1833. I have his family on censuses - Berwick then various places in Durham down to 1911. I know these to be correct.

    I made too many assumptions about James in Caithness though. The family story was one of great poverty, scraping a living from the land, hence the move south via Aberdeen (where they married in 1854) and Berwick (1861). As my father spoke of them living in the Thurso area (Eliza's family) and also the Pentland Firth, I thought it likely that James' birthplace might have been Canisbay.

    When I looked at the James Robertsons born c 1833 in Caithness, most seemed implausible.

    Not the son of Patrick and Euphemia Robertson (teachers) who seem to have left caithness by 1851. We are all teachers in my family, but the ancestral story was of farming.

    Not the grandson of the Calders - he's still there in 1861.

    Not the son of Donald and Barbara Simpson - married Catherine Gair 1857.

    Not the son of James and Isabella - still in Caithness in 1861.

    etc.

    And now I know he was not the son of William Robertson and Elizabeth Gray - this is where I made my mistake as the probably widowed cottager Elizabeth, living in Canisbay, fitted the profile of the family story, although I had no proof.

    I don't have time to do any searching atm, but perhaps my father was wrong, or did not know all the facts about his grandfather coming from Caithness. I have often wondered why they married in Aberdeen and not Caithness. Their first recorded son was born the following year and named for Eliza's father Hugh, it seems. The next two were James and William. They had eight sons but no daughters to indicate a possible naming pattern on the maternal side.

    Thank you so much for your suggestions and interest - and apologies for appropriating the wrong JR!

    Helen

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Victoria Australia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tricia View Post
    The Donaldson family on this line are James Donaldson and Isabell Mowat - lived in Sarclet -. Note in 1861. James Donaldson is widowed living with son Andrew Donaldson and his wife Margare ROBERTSON(b Canisbay) also staying there is widow Elizabeth Robertson(Grey)

    1861: Name: Andrew Donaldson
    Age: 25
    Estimated birth year: abt 1836
    Relationship: Head
    Spouse's name : Margaret
    Father's Name: James
    Gender: Male
    Where born: Wick, Caithnessshire
    Registration Number: 43/2
    Registration district: Wick
    Civil parish: Wick
    County: Caithness
    Address: Lochside Of Sarclet
    Occupation: Fisherman
    ED: 4
    Household schedule number: 149
    Line: 23
    Roll: CSSCT1861_6
    Household Members: Name Age
    Andrew Donaldson 25
    Margaret Donaldson 29
    James Donaldson 1
    James Donaldson 74 father wid
    Elizabeth Robertson 59 mother in law wid

    1841 Sarclet
    Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
    DONALDSON James M 55 Fisherman Caithness
    MOWAT / DONALDSON Isbel F 40 Caithness
    DONALDSON Elis. F 21 Caithness
    DONALD Anne F 14 Caithness
    DONALD Isac M 12 Caithness
    DONALD James M 9 Caithness
    DONALD Andrew M 7 Caithness

    Tricia
    Thanks for this information. We believe the Donaldson family mentioned here are those related to my wife through her grandmother - Ethel Ann Mowat.
    We think the James Donaldson (b: abt 1832) missing after 1841 census, married Ann Bain on 09Aug1861 in Keiss Wick and came to Australia in 1862. Their daughter Mary Jane b 1871 Carisbrook Victoria, married John Mowat b 1894 Maryborough Vic - they're the parents of Ethel Ann. Btw: John Mowat's father - John, arrived 1857 from Caithness, His parents were John M and Barbara [MacKay].

    I'm trying to locate James (brother of Andrew) after 1841 and before his marriage to Ann Bain. Other comments on this thread give me a lead.

    Many thanks.
    Bob

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Wick, now England (maiden name -MORE)
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    481

    Default James Donaldson son of James D & Isabella Mowat

    Hi Bob
    by 1851 James junior's father James was a widow so he may have been out working.
    process of elimination but :
    a possible in 1851 and with same folks in 1861 - KEISS
    Piece: SCT1851/43 Place: Wick -Caithness Enumeration District: 2
    Civil Parish: Wick Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Wick
    Folio: 0 Page: 10 Schedule: 37
    Address: Wester House
    Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
    GALLIE John Head U M 40 Farmer Of 115 Acres Empl 5 Lab Ross and Cromarty -
    GALLIE Abner Brothr U M 38 Manager Of The Farm Ross and Cromarty - -
    MCKENZIE Margaret Cousin U F 32 House Servant Ross and Cromarty - Fearn(Originally: Ross and Cromarty - Fern)
    MUNRO John Nephew U M 14 Scholar Ross and Cromarty - Assynt
    DONALDSON James Servnt U M 26 Agricultural Labourer Caithness - Canisbay
    BAIN John Servnt U M 16 Agricultural Labourer Caithness - Canisbay
    SWANSON Williamina Servnt U F 18 House Servant Caithness - Bower

    A Possible in Quoys of KEISS 1861 Census (he married in Keiss as an Ag Labourer)
    GALLIE John Head U M 54 Farmer of 200ac 3 lab 1 boy ROC Fearn
    GALLIE Abner Brother U M 52 Do Do ROC Fearn
    MCKENZIE Margaret Cousin U F 41 House Keeper ROC Fearn
    DONALDSON James Serv. U M 34 Farm Serv.CAI Wick
    GREEN Malcolm Serv. U M 19 Farm Serv.CAI Wick
    SUTHERLAND Elizabeth Serv. U F 20 Dairy Maid CAI Latheron
    BRUCE Alexander Serv. U M 13 Herd CAI Wick

    ( note one says born Canisbay and one Wick - easy error in recording)

    I assume you have a copy of the marriage of James D and Ann Bain 1861. I have. She the daughter of Donald Bain and Catherine Rosie.
    Tricia
    Last edited by Tricia; 11-Aug-10 at 21:15.

  5. #25
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    James Donaldson senior b 01 MAR 1788 son of James Donaldson and Ann Ralf died 4 March 1874 in Sarclet aged 86
    Son Andrew was informant.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tricia View Post
    Hi Bob
    by 1851 James junior's father James was a widow so he may have been out working.
    process of elimination but :
    a possible in 1851 and with same folks in 1861 - KEISS
    Piece: SCT1851/43 Place: Wick -Caithness Enumeration District: 2
    Civil Parish: Wick Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Wick
    Folio: 0 Page: 10 Schedule: 37
    Address: Wester House
    Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
    GALLIE John Head U M 40 Farmer Of 115 Acres Empl 5 Lab Ross and Cromarty -
    GALLIE Abner Brothr U M 38 Manager Of The Farm Ross and Cromarty - -
    MCKENZIE Margaret Cousin U F 32 House Servant Ross and Cromarty - Fearn(Originally: Ross and Cromarty - Fern)
    MUNRO John Nephew U M 14 Scholar Ross and Cromarty - Assynt
    DONALDSON James Servnt U M 26 Agricultural Labourer Caithness - Canisbay
    BAIN John Servnt U M 16 Agricultural Labourer Caithness - Canisbay
    SWANSON Williamina Servnt U F 18 House Servant Caithness - Bower

    A Possible in Quoys of KEISS 1861 Census (he married in Keiss as an Ag Labourer)
    GALLIE John Head U M 54 Farmer of 200ac 3 lab 1 boy ROC Fearn
    GALLIE Abner Brother U M 52 Do Do ROC Fearn
    MCKENZIE Margaret Cousin U F 41 House Keeper ROC Fearn
    DONALDSON James Serv. U M 34 Farm Serv.CAI Wick
    GREEN Malcolm Serv. U M 19 Farm Serv.CAI Wick
    SUTHERLAND Elizabeth Serv. U F 20 Dairy Maid CAI Latheron
    BRUCE Alexander Serv. U M 13 Herd CAI Wick

    ( note one says born Canisbay and one Wick - easy error in recording)

    I assume you have a copy of the marriage of James D and Ann Bain 1861. I have. She the daughter of Donald Bain and Catherine Rosie.
    Tricia
    Hi Tricia,

    Thanks for this. I like your logic and the results of your search skills.

    Regarding marriage of James_Junior to Ann Bain in 1861, all I have is the scotlandspeople image (043/02 0009).

    I note James_J's age on C61 (34), doesn't fit with his age (29) on the marriage document. (I must admit I've seen some other bigger differences. I guess it may not have been so important; and from the marriage he cannot write.)

    I've been off in other parts of Scotland chasing after Brodie and Kerr (my family), your response will bring me back to fill in more detail.

    A request, if I may: Do you have J_J's dob info? All I have is - abt 1832. I have all the information regarding their passage to Australia and documents once they arrived here. And some oral history regarding their daughter Mary Jane (the GGM).

    Regards

    -bob
    Bob

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tricia View Post
    James Donaldson senior b 01 MAR 1788 son of James Donaldson and Ann Ralf died 4 March 1874 in Sarclet aged 86
    Son Andrew was informant.
    Hi Tricia,

    Again you fill in holes in my work - thanks.

    I had d: for James_Senior, your b: information greatly improves on my b: abt 1786.

    What can you tell me about his wife Isabella (Bell) Mowat? My best (!) is b: abt 1800 and d: btwn 1841 - 1862. I cannot find her anywhere. And I have Isabella's parents as Andrew Mowat and ?? Isbel/Isabel/Isobel. Can you point me in a direction to improve the quality of this material?

    Also, regarding J_S's mother Ann Ralf, I also saw Ann Rolf. Can you add weight to one or the other?

    Regards

    -bob
    Bob

  8. #28
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    Victoria Australia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Hi Tricia,

    Thanks for this. I like your logic and the results of your search skills.

    Regarding marriage of James_Junior to Ann Bain in 1861, all I have is the scotlandspeople image (043/02 0009).

    I note James_J's age on C61 (34), doesn't fit with his age (29) on the marriage document. (I must admit I've seen some other bigger differences. I guess it may not have been so important; and from the marriage he cannot write.)

    I've been off in other parts of Scotland chasing after Brodie and Kerr (my family), your response will bring me back to fill in more detail.

    A request, if I may: Do you have J_J's dob info? All I have is - abt 1832. I have all the information regarding their passage to Australia and documents once they arrived here. And some oral history regarding their daughter Mary Jane (the GGM).

    Regards

    -bob
    Hi Tricia,

    More on James_Junior's age.

    With an assumption - btwn 1830 & 1840 only one James D born with parents James and Isabella (Yes), then following an analysis of scotlandspeople b index records I arrived at a birth date of 30.01.1832. This date is consistant with age at C41 (9) and marriage in 1861 to Ann Bain (29). Doesn't fit with the age on the C51 & C61 records for found James, or fit with age of James at his death in 1923 Maryborough Vic (94). As I said earlier, maybe it wasn't important, or maybe folk elevated their age for advantage. Comments?

    Regards

    -bob
    Bob

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Wick, now England (maiden name -MORE)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    What can you tell me about his wife Isabella (Bell) Mowat? My best (!) is b: abt 1800 and d: btwn 1841 - 1862. I cannot find her anywhere. And I have Isabella's parents as Andrew Mowat and ?? Isbel/Isabel/Isobel. Can you point me in a direction to improve the quality of this material?
    Also, regarding J_S's mother Ann Ralf, I also saw Ann Rolf. Can you add weight to one or the other?
    Regards-bob
    Can't sort Isabella's parents - she could be either side of 1800 but they have birth of a daughter ???before marriage
    SP record
    30/06/1820 DONALDSON ELISABETH OR MOWAT//JAMES DONALDSON/ISOBEL MOWAT WICK /CAITHNESS 043/ 0040 0015
    " James in Sarclet had by Isabel Mowat in Ulbster an illegitimate child named Elizabeth born April 30th bapt June 30th witnesses Andrew Mowat boat carpenter Ulbster and George Donaldson a Tailor in Wick"

    Could it be that James was still or had been married before........ he was supposedly 15 or so years older than Isabella.???

  10. #30
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    Also, regarding J_S's mother Ann Ralf, I also saw Ann Rolf. Can you add weight to one or
    James Donaldson married Ann Rolf /also found as Ralf/Ralfe/Ralph)
    17 NOV 1781 Wick, Caithness, Scotland

  11. #31

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    Hello Tricia and Bob

    While I am very glad (if jealous) that you have had a very productive time with your Donaldsons and descendants, the title of my thread was James Robertson...et al.

    I am slightly concerned that anyone with information about my James Robertson might be deterred from posting as the swing has gone to the Donaldsons, whom Tricia has incontrovertibly proved are not my ancestral line.

    I would therefore be grateful if you would start another thread about the Donaldsons and descendants, and not use this one.

    Hope you get my drift, no offence intended.

    Helen

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by helenwyler View Post
    Hello Tricia and Bob

    While I am very glad (if jealous) that you have had a very productive time with your Donaldsons and descendants, the title of my thread was James Robertson...et al.

    I am slightly concerned that anyone with information about my James Robertson might be deterred from posting as the swing has gone to the Donaldsons, whom Tricia has incontrovertibly proved are not my ancestral line.

    I would therefore be grateful if you would start another thread about the Donaldsons and descendants, and not use this one.

    Hope you get my drift, no offence intended.

    Helen
    Hi Helen,

    And none taken. Making progress (even slow progress) was exciting; didn't stop to think.

    From me: As the ball is in my court I'll setup a new thread, as you've suggested, to take the Donaldson discussion forward.

    Thanks for starting this journey and good luck to you for your Robertson quest.

    Regards

    -bob
    Bob

  13. #33
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    Yes it appears to be Donaldson/Mowat topic now and I was thinking it should be a new thread but Bob has beaten me to it. Thanks Bob.
    NEW Donaldson/Mowat etc thread at :
    http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?t=117948

    However anyone reading this thread remember that this Caithness ROBERTSON and DONALDSON line is linked.
    eg 1861 James Donaldson is widowed living with son Andrew Donaldson and his wife Margaret ROBERTSON(b Canisbay) also staying there is Margaret's mother widow Elizabeth ROBERTSON(msGREY). Elizabeth the widow of James Robertson (as previous posts) .

    Helen
    Sorry your Robertson didn't turn out to be the James 1833 son of James and Elizabeth(Grey) Robertson.
    Did you ever find any link to Caithness with your Robertson.
    Quote from you: "As my father spoke of them living in the Thurso area and also the Pentland Firth,"

    Tricia

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