James Robertson/Robeson & Elizabeth McDonald-Canisbay & Thurso

[helenwyler]

Hello!
Does anybody have info about my ggrandparents James Robertson b. 1833 Canisbay or wife Eliza McDonald b. 1834/5 probably Thurso? Names and birth dates are right, but origins in Caithness are a bit shaky.


I think James Robertson was born in Canisbay (1841 census), and his parents were probably James Robertson and Elizabeth Gray (b. 1802). In OPR birth records name given as Robeson. He had three sisters - Ann and Margaret (twins?) both given as born 1826, and Janet b. 1831. Father James appears to be dead by 1841 census, mother E. Robertson's occupation given as "cottager".

Elizabeth McDonald's father was Hugh (stated in her marriage registration Aberdeen 1854, and his occupation given as "farmer"). The only people with these names and right age for Elizabeth (1841 census) give mother as Margaret, and sisters Barbra, Christina & Catherine. Can't find them in 1851 census.

I'm not 100% about James' and Elizabeth's parents, but if they are in anybody else's tree or any kind soul has info about these names I'd be really grateful to know.

Thanks!!

Helen nee Robertson

[marionq]

Have you tried the www.cursiter.co.uk website which deals with Orkney and Caithness? I found a lot of my ancestors whom I had linked only with Caithness previously. It's worth a try.

Marion

[Rosemary Skea]

Helen, Have you got Elizabeth's mother's maiden name on the marriage certificate? This will help with finding the family. In Thurso OPR of births there are three families with Hugh Macdonald listed as father.

Rosemary

[helenwyler]

Thanks for the tip Marion. I've had a look at the website and can't find anybody there, but it's helpful to rule out Orkney connections.

Have a good weekend!
Helen

[helenwyler]

Hello Rosemary - your advice prompted me to do some fine tooth-combing with excellent results!
Although I'd already found 6 OPR records for Elizabeth and 6 for father Hugh Macdonald (can't find marriage registration for Hugh) I couldn't match them reliably.
When I got your message I sat down with all the OPR, Freecen, Scotlandspeople and Ancestry.co.uk records in piles on the floor! I'd forgotten that the early censuses didn't always give the relationships between people staying at an address. Elizabeth was missing from 1841 census but present on the 1851 census. So I checked birth records for all Elizabeths and found she wasn't the daughter of the McDonalds she was staying with on the night of the 1841 census, but 'my' MacDonald family!
I then was able to find her mother Margaret Gunn, and that Elizabeth had been a twin, whose sister must have died before 1841. As the censuses rolled by she also took a few years off her age!
Thanks so much for inspiring me! Running out of space, Helen

[Mamie_2]

might be the one born c 1800 to Alexander Gray and Margaret Bremner?

Margaret was at Heather of Freswick in 1841

Alexander and Margaret's children
Alexander, Janet, William, Elspet/Elizabeth, James and Sinclair.

Have further information on James and Sinclair if you think this might be "yours".

Maryann

[helenwyler]

Hello Maryann
Since my original post I've dug up Elspet/Elizabeth's OPR birth (16 Feb 1800), marriage to William Robertson (20 April 1823) and SD (13 May 1867) which gives her parents as Alexander Gray and Margaret Bremner (m 12 July 1793). I'd also found her brother Sinclair( b 13 Nov 1804), but didn't know about other siblings - if you have info, I'd be interested to know. Are you related to them?

Elizabeth Gray is my gggrandmother. The puzzling thing is that although she remained married to William Robertson all her life, her son James' OPR Birth (15 July 1833 Canisbay) gives father as James not William Robeson. I can't find William or James in 1841 or 51. I think they might have been soldiers.

Also William seems to have been married before as there is a daughter Margaret very close in age to another daughter Anne, but her OPR gives her parents as William Robertson and Charlotte Cruickshanks. Thanks, Helen

[Mamie_2]

Hej Helen

My connection to these Gray's is through Sinclair. His grandson George Gray 1869-1926 married my 3rd cousin 2x removed Helen Jane Dunnet.

I do not have any details on Alexander Gray other than he may have been the son, born in 1763 om Watten, of Alexander Gray and Elizabeth Sutherland.

Margaret Bremner's parents were William Bremner and Janet Irvine. She had 3 brothers Alexander, William and Andrew. I have further connections to these Bremner's through Andrew's line.

Alexander and Margaret's children
Alexander - b Nov 17 1793 no further info.

Janet - b Aug 9 1795 I believe she never married

William b 1797 no further info

James b Jul 13 1802 had daughter Besty with Sydney Miller married Jane Laird (born Aug 4 1809) on Apr 27 1833. James and Janet had one son Alexander that I know of in 1834.

Sinclair married Margaret Bain Nov 25 1833. They had 7 children.
Alexander 1835
Helen 1837
Donald (1838-1911)married Catherine Houston( parents George and Barbara Houston) and Helen McAdie. It is his son George who married Helen Jane Dunnet.
Margaret 1841
Ann 1843 married a William Bremner
Janet 1846
Sinclair 1849

Maryann

[helenwyler]

Hello Maryann

Thanks so much for your info on the Grey family - a whole new branch. It's good to know Margaret Bremner's parents - there were two Margarets born two years apart to fathers William Bremner and mothers Janet, both in Canisbay and I didn't know which was which, so thanks for settling that for me!

Elizabeth's husband William Robeson is still a puzzle. According to his mother's SD he's still alive in 1855, and on Elizabeth's SD 1867 he was a "farmer", but Elizabeth appears to have been alone with her children in 1841 (Skirza) living as cottager, and doing "general industry" in 1851 (Mitten), living with a dwindling number of offspring.

She had three daughters - Margaret 1824, Anne 1826, & Janet 1831. Her only son James (1833) married Eliza McDonald (Thurso) in Aberdeen 1854. They moved on via Berwick to Durham, where my grandfather James Theophilus Robertson, the youngest of eight boys and no girls, was born in 1874.

I may have mentioned a Cruickshanks connection in previous communication - this was an error I made early on in my searching!

Thanks again and if you want more info on the Robertsons let me know.

Helen

[Mamie_2]

William, even if generally a farmer/crofter, could have been out fishing at the time of the 1841 census.

Many men supplemented their incomes by fishing.

When I have a moment I may have a look for William lol. I would love to add more Robertson's to my database though.

Right at the moment I have a bunch of Robert Levach's descendants that I am looking at. One of his descendants just sent me a family file of about 560 people!! Need to have a good look and see how to integrate it into my database.

Maryann

[helenwyler]

Yes he might have been out fishing, but there are some odd things, not only about his absence, but about the paternity of Elizabeth's children.

1841 - if William was a 'farmer' (according to her SD), why is Elizabeth's occ. 'cottager'? They could have started off as cottagers, I suppose.

1851 - Elizabeth described as 'head' and occ. 'general industry' (not farmer's wife/widow)

1861 - Elizabeth living with daughter Margaret (m. Andrew Donaldson 1860) and occ. given as 'formerly fisherman's wife'

Paternity puzzles:

Margaret b. 1824 to William Robeson and Elizabeth Gray. SM (m. Andrew Donaldson 1860) gives father as William Robertson, Farmer, (dec) and Elizabeth Robertson.

Anne b. 1826 to William Robertson and Elizabeth Gray, but SM (m. Andrew Rosie 1865) gives father as James Robertson, fisherman dec. and Elizabeth Robertson/Gray

Janet b. 1831 to William Robertson and Elizabeth Gray, never married, SD gives father William Robertson, farmer dec. and Elizabeth Robertson/Gray.

James (my ggrandfather) b. 1833 to James Robertson and Elizabeth Gray. English death record (1907 - no parents) and married in Aberdeen before SMs.

One name error in favour of James Robeson is plausible, but two, 32 years apart, in favour of the same person sounds more substantial.

I have more info about possible remarriage of William in 1837, but need to check it. Is it possible to get access to kirk session records online do you know?

Helen

[Mamie_2]

but that's why I enjoy genealogy lol.

I do not know of any kirk sessions online. Maybe someone else does?

An error on a marriage record and one on a birth record isn't so far out of the realms of possibility as two that were contemporary.

Perhaps William's death occurred between 1851 and 1855 making it difficult to prove.

Children of Elizabeth's children were? Any clues in the naming of them? I see Andrew and Ann didn't seem to have any children. If James is first or second rather than William increase the odds father was James.

Maryann

[helenwyler]

You might well be right about plausibility of three consistent deviations from William as father, but my nose is telling me there were two fathers involved here.

The fact that the first and last refs to James are 32 years apart makes it seem less likely (to me) to be fortuitous error. Two refs to 'fisherman' too.

I have not found a convincing William or James Robertson on 1841 or 51 census, nor SDs. Of course they could both have died before 1855. But I've been trying to do some lateral thinking.

I think maybe William/James' son, James b. 1833, might have been working on Donald Robertson's farm, Halfway House, Wick, as FS in 1851. He wasn't at home with Elizabeth Gray. I've eliminated other Jameses of similar age on 1851 census if they were living with family etc. or if they reappear on 1861 census, as James was married and living in Berwick by then with four children. There is one other James Robertson FS in Olrig, but he's a little too young, maybe. If Donald was his uncle, he had two brothers William and James... More of this another time when I've checked more thoroughly.


Elizabeth's daughter Margaret Robertson/Donaldson's children were:

James (but Andrew Donaldson's father was James too, living with them in Scarclet 1861)
Isabella (Andrew's mother's name Isabella Mowat)
Williamina (could be significant). Margaret gives father's name as William on Stat. Marriage , unlike sister Anne Stat. Marriage record.
Andrew

[Tricia]

Elizabeth's daughter Margaret Robertson/Donaldson's children were:

James (but Andrew Donaldson's father was James too, living with them in Scarclet 1861)
Isabella (Andrew's mother's name Isabella Mowat)
Williamina (could be significant). Margaret gives father's name as William on Stat. Marriage , unlike sister Anne Stat. Marriage record.
Andrew

The Donaldson family on this line are James Donaldson and Isabell Mowat - lived in Sarclet -. Note in 1861. James Donaldson is widowed living with son Andrew Donaldson and his wife Margare ROBERTSON(b Canisbay) also staying there is widow Elizabeth Robertson(Grey)

1861: Name: Andrew Donaldson
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1836
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Margaret
Father's Name: James
Gender: Male
Where born: Wick, Caithnessshire
Registration Number: 43/2
Registration district: Wick
Civil parish: Wick
County: Caithness
Address: Lochside Of Sarclet
Occupation: Fisherman
ED: 4
Household schedule number: 149
Line: 23
Roll: CSSCT1861_6
Household Members: Name Age
Andrew Donaldson 25
Margaret Donaldson 29
James Donaldson 1
James Donaldson 74 father wid
Elizabeth Robertson 59 mother in law wid

1841 Sarclet
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
DONALDSON James M 55 Fisherman Caithness
MOWAT / DONALDSON Isbel F 40 Caithness
DONALDSON Elis. F 21 Caithness
DONALD Anne F 14 Caithness
DONALD Isac M 12 Caithness
DONALD James M 9 Caithness
DONALD Andrew M 7 Caithness

Tricia

[Tricia]

Hello!
Does anybody have info about my ggrandparents James Robertson b. 1833 Canisbay or wife Eliza McDonald b. 1834/5 probably Thurso? Names and birth dates are right, but origins in Caithness are a bit shaky.

I think James Robertson was born in Canisbay (1841 census), and his parents were probably James Robertson and Elizabeth Gray (b. 1802). In OPR birth records name given as Robeson. He had three sisters - Ann and Margaret (twins?) both given as born 1826, and Janet b. 1831. Father James appears to be dead by 1841 census, mother E. Robertson's occupation given as "cottager".

I'm not 100% about James' and Elizabeth's parents, but if they are in anybody else's tree or any kind soul has info about these names I'd be really grateful to know.

Thanks!!

Helen nee Robertson

To all
I have deaths for James son & Janet daug of William R & Eliz Gray.

Death of brother and sister. Both SINGLE.

James Robertson b 1 Jun 1833 Freswick Canisbay.
Son of William Robertson, Fisherman b 1799 and Elizabeth Gray.
Died single in Freswick Canisbay aged 74 on 5 Jan 1909.
Accute Bronchitis and Heart Failure.
He was a fisherman. Informant was his cousin James Donaldson(cousin or nephew??).

Janet Robertson b 4 Dec 1830 Freswick Canisbay
Daug of William Robertson, Crofter and Elizabeth Gray.
Died single in Freswick Canisbay aged 75 on 8 Feb 1907.
Chronic Bronchitis 6 months and Debility 3 months.
She was domestic servant. Informant was James Donaldson Nephew.

James is also to be found on various census to 1901 a single man in Canisbay.
Assuming the dath cert has named correct parents then this is not the James who married 1854 in Aberdeen Elizabeth Mcdonald. (see other posts in this thread)

Other James Robertson Births and baptisms in Canisbay c 1833:
6 Apr 1834 12 May 1834 James M Patrick ROBERTSON Euphemia MCKAY Stroma
8 Mar 1835 26 Mar 1835 James M Donald ROBESON Barbara SIMPSON Freswick

I believe the James 1835 to Donald & Barbara is in Wick married in later years.

Have we any evidence to say that the James R married to Elizabeth McDonald was in fact born Canisbay. His marriage cert does not help and in English census 1861 onwards it just says Scotland.

ANYONE help!
Helen knows about this as we have exchanged emails - I just thought someone reading this may have a fresh lead.

Tricia.

[Tricia]

I think maybe William/James' son, James b. 1833, might have been working on Donald Robertson's farm, Halfway House, Wick, as FS in 1851. He wasn't at home with Elizabeth Gray. I've eliminated other Jameses of similar age on 1851 census if they were living with family etc. or if they reappear on 1861 census, as James was married and living in Berwick by then with four children. There is one other James Robertson FS in Olrig, but he's a little too young, maybe. If Donald was his uncle, he had two brothers William and James... More of this another time when I've checked more thoroughly.

Reckon this could be James Robertson son of Elizabeth Gray
Piece: SCT1851/39 Place: Olrig -Caithness Enumeration District: 3 Civil Parish: Olrig Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 0 Page: 5 Schedule: 18
Address: Thurdistoft
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
GREY John Head U M 29 Farm Servant Caithness - Wick
MILLER Henry Servnt U M 21 Farm Servant Caithness - Olrig
GUNN John Servnt U M 18 Shepherd Caithness - Halkirk
LEVACH James Servnt U M 16 Farm Servant Caithness - Canisbay
ROBERTSON James Servnt U M 16 Farm Servant Caithness - Canisbay

John Grey may well be a relative of James's mother Eliz Grey. ! Any takers???

Tricia

[Mamie_2]

Isn't it likely that he is the John born in 1824 to James Gray and Esther More who married 1821 in Wick?

Elizabeth did have brother James born 1802 but I have him having children with two other women lol.
i.e Jane Laird m 1833 and Sidney Miller.
He is in Wick in 1841 and 1851 but not in Sarclet which is where James who married Esther More is in 1841 both age 40. Esther's James doesn't seem to be at home in 1851 but Esther is listed as married not widowed. I can't find Esther or James in Sarclet in 1861. She was born c 1793-1801 in Sarclet and James is likely of a similiar age.

I think that I have a candidate for William Roberston/Robson who could have been Elizabeth Gray's spouse.

William born May 12 1799 in Freswick(FREEREG entry) to James Robertson/Robson and Ann Bremner. Would fit the names of William and Elizabeth's children.
At least two sibling that I know of.
Elizabeth b c 1792 sm Donald Warse
Sinclair 1803 m Andrew Bain

The Sarclet Grays and the Freswick Grays don't seem to be easily connected although I suppose they could be.

Mamie

[Mamie_2]

Elspet Robson 1791 Freswick aka Elizabeth
William Robson 1799 Freswick
Sinclair Robson 1803 /Freswick
Donald Robeson 1807 Freswick m Barbara Simpson James 1835 is their son

all on FREEREG

James Robson and Ann Bremner were contracted in Jul and may have married Jul 11 1790 in Canisbay. Only their parishes are recorded. No witnesses recorded.

Mamie

[Mamie_2]

James Robertson and Elizabeth McDonald's children? where are they on the English Censuses?? what was his occupation?
We need to rework your research I think.

Obviously they had some or you wouldn't be able to be looking for him. Any Patrick or Peter's in the family??

The only one we really haven't accounted for is the one in 1834 to Patrick and Euphemia Mackay lol.

I have Donald and Barbara's James 1835 married to Catherine Gair/Gare(other sp possible)
James 1833 of William and Elizabeth died single.

Patrick was born in 1794 in Latheron and his father was James. He and Euphemia married in 1830 in Latheron.

Mamie

[Mamie_2]

I did find them in Berwick Upon Tweed in 1861.
Eliza McDonald crossed out Robertson Boi***llers wife
Hugh 6 scholar
J? 4
William 2
Daniel 8 mos

I do see that there are multiple public trees with James and Eliza McDonald but most do have William and Elizabeth Gray as parents which we know to be wrong. Comments have been added to all of them confirming this.

Would that have been you Tricia? or someone else.

What was James occupation that he was never home for the censuses? lol

Mamie