Why are you voting No?

[mi16]

I'm voting no so that I can celebrate with the rest of the winners come September 19th

[rob murray]

No it isn't the British Parliament......it is just called the British Parliament......but it is just the English Parliament of 1707 with all the attendant trappings still in place, and with a minority of representatives from the other Countries.

Do tell how much say Scotland (and/or NI/Wales) has when English Constituency MPs vote to implement something the majority of their MPs have voted against? That would be none, of course.

1979, thats why I wont vote yes, SNP bringing post war consensus to a bitter and complete end, paving the way for the nutcase monetarist experiment that destroyed industry and the attendant social fabric, ironically most "effective" in Scotland : Bathgate, Linwood, Motherwell Steel, Invergordon smelter etc etc...argue against that one !!

The SNP have a revisionist agenda, re writing history to suit themselves, they screwed the country up in 79 and will do again, lies lies lies, dunno, dunno, maybe yes maybe no, thats what we get fed. There are so many improbables within the seperatist debate, Salmon knows this and expects us, the electorate to trust him and his acolytes...sorry but outwith 3 SNP MSP figures, the rest are nothing more than toon councillors on a well paid jolly, why would anyone trust any of them ? Stay where we are and fight for devo max powers see how we get on, buys time to see how the country does running most of its own affiars and get honest real legally standing answers on fiscal stuff, trident, you know the elephants in the room that Salmon insists aint there....look at the elephants ? fit elephants...we cant see any....are you mad....trust us they aint there !!!! ( SNP line ).

[mi16]

I am voting no because in addition to my other reasons it has been announced that an independent Scotland will get a credit rating similar to that of a homeless person.

[Big Gaz]

I am voting no because in addition to my other reasons it has been announced that an independent Scotland will get a credit rating similar to that of a homeless person.

According to the news, the very least rating an independent Scotland would probably get is an A, which in anyones book is reasonably good.

Other reports says that Scottish independence would actually increase the UK's credit rating? no doubt because the English govt would have gotten rid of the Scottish spongers...aye right!

Then there is the one that says Scotland will have the largest fiscal deficit in the world within a year of independence....hmmm, can't see Scotland owing more than £12 trillion after a year (US debt at present) because other reports say it will have a poor credit rating so where is all this money going to come from? You can't borrow with a crap credit rating and you certainly can't spend what you don't have and to say £12t debt in 1 year is a joke.....

One professor says that Scotland may be forced to hand over all it's oil in exchange for debt relief from the EU? So give the EU (who incidentally refuse to allow Scotland to rejoin) all of Scotland's oil in exchange for a basic debt-free lifestyle but one with no spare change to invest in the country's future? hmmm.....

Then you have the Caithness Orger who says that Scotland will collapse under it's own govt (is fat eck planning a subway for Edinburgh now?) that Scotland will become the pauper of the world and that no-one will want to live here anymore. Seems to me that people will have no choice but to live here due to their house values falling off the cliff...

Ach, independence blether, what a palaver.....you couldna make it up, but most people are!!!

[mi16]

it is two grades below the rating which we currently have, how can you spin that as a positive?

[ducati]

According to the news, the very least rating an independent Scotland would probably get is an A, which in anyones book is reasonably good.

This would push up the cost of borrowing. Spin it how you like it would be a disaster for anyone with a mortgage, car loan, credit card. It would effect the property market both private and commercial, plus as most of the lenders are English, how would the cross border disparity in interest rates effect all sorts of things including business finance, transactions between financial institutions etc?

[squidge]

...and other credit ratings agencies say Scotland will get a much better credit rating than A

.... Interest rates will be what they will be. Disappointingly for me it appears that we are likely to have a currency union so interest rates will be the same across the whole of the UK. If it's disastrous for borrowing here then it will be the same elsewhere in the UK.

... And the cross border disparity in interest rates would dealt with by the businesses in the same way as happens with cross border financial services between the UK and the rest of the world today! These businesses work across many countries and often throughout the world - to suggest that the systems for trade, financial services, transaction costs etc etc are going to be prohibitive and excessively costly when it works across many many other much more complicated borders than that between the rest of the UK and Scotland makes no sense. But if you want to believe it do so... ....

...Devo max? Devo numpty more like, labour is offering powers which will enable us to implement tax changes that will benefit no one and increase Scotland's income by not one jot: which give us the responsibility for health and safety exec but not the power to amend or draw up our own health and safety legislation. Waste of time and space. Wait and see? Tell that to those people using food banks, being conned by useless Work Programmes and as Scotland's budget gets so smaller as the rest of the UK laughs up their sleeve. This referendum is not about the SNP nor is it about 1979 - in fact many folks voting won't have been born in 1979. This referendum is about the future. What WE do with it and how WE - the people of Scotland make it happen.

[Big Gaz]

it is two grades below the rating which we currently have, how can you spin that as a positive?

Who said it was a positive? I merely said that the rating would be an A.....i don't think any homeless person would have such a good rating...do you?

[Big Gaz]

This would push up the cost of borrowing. Spin it how you like it would be a disaster for anyone with a mortgage, car loan, credit card. It would effect the property market both private and commercial, plus as most of the lenders are English, how would the cross border disparity in interest rates effect all sorts of things including business finance, transactions between financial institutions etc?

The way you blether on about the English lenders, they will be lucky to see any Scotsman's money! that's if they have any left after independence

[ducati]

... And the cross border disparity in interest rates would dealt with by the businesses in the same way as happens with cross border financial services between the UK and the rest of the world today! These businesses work across many countries and often throughout the world - to suggest that the systems for trade, financial services, transaction costs etc etc are going to be prohibitive and excessively costly when it works across many many other much more complicated borders than that between the rest of the UK and Scotland makes no sense. But if you want to believe it do so... ....

We are being told it will be business as usual, independence will make no difference. Who should we believe?

[ducati]

.... Interest rates will be what they will be.

I had to go away and think about this for a bit. Are you seriously dismissing interest rates as unimportant?

It is the single most important factor in anyone's financial wellbeing. Even a small increase will see the vast majority of us thousands of pounds (or whatevers) a year worse off. It will increase mortgage costs which will increase rents. It will reduce the spending power of every council, government and social agency and charity. The only people not adversly affected by higher interest rates are the very wealthy.

This leads me to believe you either don't understand the problem, or you are so wrapped up in your own narrow political agenda that you just don't care about the consequences. Which is it?

[ducati]

So that is why I am voting No. There are no consequences to voting No

[rob murray]

...and other credit ratings agencies say Scotland will get a much better credit rating than A

.... Interest rates will be what they will be. Disappointingly for me it appears that we are likely to have a currency union so interest rates will be the same across the whole of the UK. If it's disastrous for borrowing here then it will be the same elsewhere in the UK.

... And the cross border disparity in interest rates would dealt with by the businesses in the same way as happens with cross border financial services between the UK and the rest of the world today! These businesses work across many countries and often throughout the world - to suggest that the systems for trade, financial services, transaction costs etc etc are going to be prohibitive and excessively costly when it works across many many other much more complicated borders than that between the rest of the UK and Scotland makes no sense. But if you want to believe it do so... ....

...Devo max? Devo numpty more like, labour is offering powers which will enable us to implement tax changes that will benefit no one and increase Scotland's income by not one jot: which give us the responsibility for health and safety exec but not the power to amend or draw up our own health and safety legislation. Waste of time and space. Wait and see? Tell that to those people using food banks, being conned by useless Work Programmes and as Scotland's budget gets so smaller as the rest of the UK laughs up their sleeve. This referendum is not about the SNP nor is it about 1979 - in fact many folks voting won't have been born in 1979. This referendum is about the future. What WE do with it and how WE - the people of Scotland make it happen.

Your being a bit Salmonish here : correct me if Im wrong, but one only party ever wanted a referendum, the SNP, their sole reason for existance is and always has been to gain independance, so how can you argue that the referendum is not about the SNP, only they have instigated it, if they hadnt then we wouldnt be where we are : how can you link HES issues with food banks ? makes no sense ( agree there should not be the need for food banks in the UK period ! ) 1979 : showed you couldnt trust the SNP a jot, this "debate" has to many maybe ayes, maybe nahs, on the really important issues, its this lack of detail that will make people stick with the known. The lack of answers to real details. makes me opt for an increased devo max, followed after a period of time when we ( the electorate ) should have access to full facts on fiscal policy, trident and EU membership to an informed referdum ( a half way house rather than this all or nothing approach being taken by the SNP ) . We are being asked to vote definitively yes / no without full knowledge of key facts, and thats not on : are we supposed to fall at the feet of ALexi and believe everything that falls out of his mouth when elements of his own party are now publically expressing doubts over supposed SNP statements ??? Nah !

[mi16]

Who said it was a positive? I merely said that the rating would be an A.....i don't think any homeless person would have such a good rating...do you?

What makes you think A is good rating?
It would put us on a par with other global financial superpowers such as Oman, Slovakia and Trinidad & Tobago.

[rob murray]

ANother good reason to vote no, I dont hear the SNP trumpeting the cause of devolved power within an indepandant Scotland : Salmon goes on about our Nordic neighbours all the time : Sweden has c 290 local authorities all with devolved power : Salmons Scotland will continue to see centralisation of power to the centre of power : Edinburgh, so we are left with a choice between London or Edinburgh : devo max : more powers to Edinburgh who in turn devolve to localities, makes sense !

Scottish local authorities are too remote from their communities and have too little power, according to a new report.Scotland would be “fairer, wealthier and healthier” if local communities had control over the issues that matter to them, according to Scotland’s first Commission on Strengthening Local Democracy. The commission, which was set up by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities (COSLA) and features a number of experts from across civic life, also found local democracy in Scotland has been “gradually dismantled” over the last 50 years.
It said Scotland is now one of the most centralised countries in the western world. David O’Neill, chairman of the commission and president of COSLA, said: “Scotland has a proud and important tradition of deciding on things locally. But local democracy is now under real pressure in this country.
“Over the decades, we’ve seen a culture in which more and more services and decisions have been taken away from local communities and put into the hands of distant bureaucracies.
“As a country, we have got so used to this approach that we’ve come to think of it as the only way to improve public services, even though that has meant that for most people decisions are now taken

[squidge]

Your being a bit Salmonish here : correct me if Im wrong, but one only party ever wanted a referendum, the SNP, their sole reason for existance is and always has been to gain independance, so how can you argue that the referendum is not about the SNP, only they have instigated it, if they hadnt then we wouldnt be where we are : how can you link HES issues with food banks ? makes no sense ( agree there should not be the need for food banks in the UK period ! ) 1979 : showed you couldnt trust the SNP a jot, this "debate" has to many maybe ayes, maybe nahs, on the really important issues, its this lack of detail that will make people stick with the known. The lack of answers to real details. makes me opt for an increased devo max, followed after a period of time when we ( the electorate ) should have access to full facts on fiscal policy, trident and EU membership to an informed referdum ( a half way house rather than this all or nothing approach being taken by the SNP ) . We are being asked to vote definitively yes / no without full knowledge of key facts, and thats not on : are we supposed to fall at the feet of ALexi and believe everything that falls out of his mouth when elements of his own party are now publically expressing doubts over supposed SNP statements ??? Nah !

Is someone else posting for you Rob? This makes little sense but ill have a go at unpicking it.

I don't particularly like AS but you know what. As much as some of you would like to think he marched into Holyrood after some sort of military coup - he didn't. Do you know what Rob? He won an election. Moreover he won an election with a majority in a parliament designed to to ensure that did not happen. Even more, he won an election whilst saying categorically, clearly and unambiguously that an SNP majority would deliver a referendum on Scottish Independence.

Maybe you think the electorate is stupid Rob. Maybe you think they can't read, understand and assimilate information Rob. Maybe you think we are "not genetically programmed" to govern ourselves Rob because that's the only way I can see that you would think this is not about what people chose. The electorate CHOSE a Scottish referendum.that might irritate the hell out of you and others - well too bad. That is how come this referendum is not about the SNP. It is about the fact that the people who voted chose to have a referendum and it is about the type of country we want to live in - independent or not. The SNP did not instigate a referendum, they offered a choice and the people who voted for them chose a referendum.

No one - not one single opposition party Is guaranteeing further devolution Rob - not one. It's in no one's manifesto. No promises, no coherence nothing. So you vote for nothing nada the opportunity to change nothing. I'll vote for the chance to take the power and control of tax, of spending and put that power in the hands of Scotland's voters because I want the opportunity to have a better fairer society and I have hope and expectation that we can begin to achieve this with independence.

Ducati . I know what matters to you is house prices, interest rates. How much money you can make from your investments and I understand that honest I do.... It's admirable. I also know that since I had my first mortgage in 1986 interest rates have gone up and down and sometimes it's been hard and sometimes it's been not so hard. What I said was they will be what they will be because in a currency union the BoE will set the same rates for both countries. I also know that there is utterly no guarantee what interest rates will be in a year, two years, five years or ten years whichever way the referendum goes.

You won't vote yes because everything will change and you are voting no because nothing will change. Ok. On ya go!

Anyone got anything to say that isn't Alex Salmond is the antichrist or we are all doomed? It's getting a bit dull even for me!

[ducati]

Is someone else posting for you Rob? This makes little sense but ill have a go at unpicking it.

I don't particularly like AS but you know what. As much as some of you would like to think he marched into Holyrood after some sort of military coup - he didn't. Do you know what Rob? He won an election. Moreover he won an election with a majority in a parliament designed to to ensure that did not happen. Even more, he won an election whilst saying categorically, clearly and unambiguously that an SNP majority would deliver a referendum on Scottish Independence.

Maybe you think the electorate is stupid Rob. Maybe you think they can't read, understand and assimilate information Rob. Maybe you think we are "not genetically programmed" to govern ourselves Rob because that's the only way I can see that you would think this is not about what people chose. The electorate CHOSE a Scottish referendum.that might irritate the hell out of you and others - well too bad. That is how come this referendum is not about the SNP. It is about the fact that the people who voted chose to have a referendum and it is about the type of country we want to live in - independent or not. The SNP did not instigate a referendum, they offered a choice and the people who voted for them chose a referendum.

No one - not one single opposition party Is guaranteeing further devolution Rob - not one. It's in no one's manifesto. No promises, no coherence nothing. So you vote for nothing nada the opportunity to change nothing. I'll vote for the chance to take the power and control of tax, of spending and put that power in the hands of Scotland's voters because I want the opportunity to have a better fairer society and I have hope and expectation that we can begin to achieve this with independence.

Ducati . I know what matters to you is house prices, interest rates. How much money you can make from your investments and I understand that honest I do.... It's admirable. I also know that since I had my first mortgage in 1986 interest rates have gone up and down and sometimes it's been hard and sometimes it's been not so hard. What I said was they will be what they will be because in a currency union the BoE will set the same rates for both countries. I also know that there is utterly no guarantee what interest rates will be in a year, two years, five years or ten years whichever way the referendum goes.

You won't vote yes because everything will change and you are voting no because nothing will change. Ok. On ya go!

Anyone got anything to say that isn't Alex Salmond is the antichrist or we are all doomed? It's getting a bit dull even for me!

Well, you charged into the thread.

And you want to vote yes to wreck everyone's life except your select few.

You try to make me sound like some kind of olligark (whatever), I clean cars for a living . I am very ordinary, just like millions of others who will be affected severely by higher interest rates in Scotland. We know there will be no currency union, that ship has sailed, so the Interest rates won't be protected artificially as the rest of the UK's will continue to be for some time. Face it Squidge, yes always was a bad idea, it is looking worse all the time.

[squidge]

Well, you charged into the thread.And you want to vote yes to wreck everyone's life except your select few.

You're like a wee boy. "Well you started it... Well you want to do bad things"

The select few???? I'm sitting in England looking after my cousin who has broken her back falling off her horse. Who was discharged from hospital in a spinal brace three days after an operation to a house where she has no one. She isn't married, she has no kids, no boyfriend no parents- they are dead- and which is full of stairs and steps. She could hardly walk. She could hardly go up stairs, she can't lift anything, raise her hands above her shoulders, shower, wash her hair. She can't bend, cook for herself or make a blasted cup of tea. She can't drive but she lives five miles from a shop. They sent her home on last Friday with no help coming in until today. She is in awful pain and taking morphine. We tried to get a frame for round the loo on Sat morning so she could go to the toilet by herself. We haven't got one. I love my cousin dearly. I had to drive from Inverness to Yorkshire to look after her until my mum can get here from France. No one cared, no one gave a crap that they were sending home a frightened, pain filled woman to an empty house miles from a shop with no support for four days.

Now I know that social services have similar problems in Scotland. But the difference is that in Scotland we have an opportunity to do something to change this. There is no opportunity to change things like this, welfare; we don't have the power to get rid of the bedroom tax -we have to pay it. We don't have the power to raise our own taxes or choose our own spending priorities, we can't choose our own tax rates, we can't increase our own income we have to be "given" those things by Westminster because they choose FOR us. We can't choose to keep our pension age at the age of 65 or 67 despite the fact that life expectancy in Scotland is lower.

Spending on health and social services and actually everything else too will REDUCE if we remain in the union because the money we get is based on how much is spent in England. Both main parties have policies of privatisation, reduction in size of the public sector and in spending. Health and social services affect EVERYONE. Welfare impacts on everyone. The only chance we have to change these things, to look after each other better than we do now is to vote for independence.

That in itself will not change things but the power control and opportunity it gives us is not to be missed.

PS Its now 1pm. Despite making 4 phone calls on Saturday, 7 phone calls this morning, despite the Dr faxing a letter thro last Friday to the "fast response intermediate team" - privately run, contracted by the NHS - we still have no visit and no prospect of one. The "fast response intermediate care team" apparently looked at the letter on Friday and decided that it was not on the right form but interestingly decided not to do anything about that. So ignored it. They knew there was an injured incapacitated woman for whom care was required and chose to do nothing about it. This happens in Scotland too BTW... See Ducati, I know you valet cars for a living, I also know you aren't an "oligarch" but for many people THESE are the things that are their critical issues. You seem to suggest that makes them foolish, naive, economically illiterate or ignorant at how the world works and that trying to take the opportunity to have the power to do things differently is foolish. It's not. Interest rates, currency unions, GERS reports don't make a society, people do.

[rob murray]

Is someone else posting for you Rob? This makes little sense but ill have a go at unpicking it.

I don't particularly like AS but you know what. As much as some of you would like to think he marched into Holyrood after some sort of military coup - he didn't. Do you know what Rob? He won an election. Moreover he won an election with a majority in a parliament designed to to ensure that did not happen. Even more, he won an election whilst saying categorically, clearly and unambiguously that an SNP majority would deliver a referendum on Scottish Independence.

Maybe you think the electorate is stupid Rob. Maybe you think they can't read, understand and assimilate information Rob. Maybe you think we are "not genetically programmed" to govern ourselves Rob because that's the only way I can see that you would think this is not about what people chose. The electorate CHOSE a Scottish referendum.that might irritate the hell out of you and others - well too bad. That is how come this referendum is not about the SNP. It is about the fact that the people who voted chose to have a referendum and it is about the type of country we want to live in - independent or not. The SNP did not instigate a referendum, they offered a choice and the people who voted for them chose a referendum.

No one - not one single opposition party Is guaranteeing further devolution Rob - not one. It's in no one's manifesto. No promises, no coherence nothing. So you vote for nothing nada the opportunity to change nothing. I'll vote for the chance to take the power and control of tax, of spending and put that power in the hands of Scotland's voters because I want the opportunity to have a better fairer society and I have hope and expectation that we can begin to achieve this with independence.

Ducati . I know what matters to you is house prices, interest rates. How much money you can make from your investments and I understand that honest I do.... It's admirable. I also know that since I had my first mortgage in 1986 interest rates have gone up and down and sometimes it's been hard and sometimes it's been not so hard. What I said was they will be what they will be because in a currency union the BoE will set the same rates for both countries. I also know that there is utterly no guarantee what interest rates will be in a year, two years, five years or ten years whichever way the referendum goes.

You won't vote yes because everything will change and you are voting no because nothing will change. Ok. On ya go!

Anyone got anything to say that isn't Alex Salmond is the antichrist or we are all doomed? It's getting a bit dull even for me!

Well Salmon is the key player here, so what do you expect, he isnt the anti christ, but the key player in Scottish politics, so by definition he is the centre of the debate, and we may well be doomed if he gets his way, facts are we dont really know. ? Why does the posting make no sense ? You are being far to over the top / personal here ie "Maybe you think the electorate is stupid Rob. Maybe you think they can't read, understand and assimilate information Rob". No, I dont, but one thing we can agree on, is there are to many unanswered improbables within this whole scenario and splits are occurring within the nats ranks over the lack of planned detail and need for plan b's in ceratin strategic matters.. The all or nothing stance, then is to much of a reckless gamble, did you ever consider for example that the nats could use the threat of separation to leverage more power from the status quo and make real change, as I said a half way house? I notice that you very neatly side swerved my earlier postings on the elephant in the room and lack of devovled local power : we are not a united nation, not now and never were and there will never be a united Scotland. The Nats dismantled HIE, transferring millions of budgets and power / decision making to Glasgow ( Scottish Enterprise and Skills Development Scotland ) whats left of HIE is a reletaively powerless rump, largely then, denying the area of local economic representation / development . A separtist Scotland will be ruled from Edinburgh, show me one instance of devolved power in Scotland ie devolved from Edinburgh to the localaties, or point me in the direction of a Nats statement that power will be devolved to local areas ? You think I am stupid, and cant as you put it assimilate information : however there is a difference between real factual information and unsubtantiated, at best, propoganda. To many maybe ayes / maybe nahs, making things up on the hoof for me, I am very sorry to say. Gimme the factual answers to the big questions and I will glady read / listen.

PS You are not Nicola Surgeon in disguise are you, she is brilliant at the sarcastic sniggering put downs : its the Eck and Nicola show and their mannerism's wont attract any undecided voters.

[rob murray]

You're like a wee boy. "Well you started it... Well you want to do bad things"

The select few???? I'm sitting in England looking after my cousin who has broken her back falling off her horse. Who was discharged from hospital in a spinal brace three days after an operation to a house where she has no one. She isn't married, she has no kids, no boyfriend no parents- they are dead- and which is full of stairs and steps. She could hardly walk. She could hardly go up stairs, she can't lift anything, raise her hands above her shoulders, shower, wash her hair. She can't bend, cook for herself or make a blasted cup of tea. She can't drive but she lives five miles from a shop. They sent her home on last Friday with no help coming in until today. She is in awful pain and taking morphine. We tried to get a frame for round the loo on Sat morning so she could go to the toilet by herself. We haven't got one. I love my cousin dearly. I had to drive from Inverness to Yorkshire to look after her until my mum can get here from France. No one cared, no one gave a crap that they were sending home a frightened, pain filled woman to an empty house miles from a shop with no support for four days.

Now I know that social services have similar problems in Scotland. But the difference is that in Scotland we have an opportunity to do something to change this. There is no opportunity to change things like this, welfare; we don't have the power to get rid of the bedroom tax -we have to pay it. We don't have the power to raise our own taxes or choose our own spending priorities, we can't choose our own tax rates, we can't increase our own income we have to be "given" those things by Westminster because they choose FOR us. We can't choose to keep our pension age at the age of 65 or 67 despite the fact that life expectancy in Scotland is lower.

Spending on health and social services and actually everything else too will REDUCE if we remain in the union because the money we get is based on how much is spent in England. Both main parties have policies of privatisation, reduction in size of the public sector and in spending. Health and social services affect EVERYONE. Welfare impacts on everyone. The only chance we have to change these things, to look after each other better than we do now is to vote for independence.

That in itself will not change things but the power control and opportunity it gives us is not to be missed.

PS Its now 1pm. Despite making 4 phone calls on Saturday, 7 phone calls this morning, despite the Dr faxing a letter thro last Friday to the "fast response intermediate team" - privately run, contracted by the NHS - we still have no visit and no prospect of one. The "fast response intermediate care team" apparently looked at the letter on Friday and decided that it was not on the right form but interestingly decided not to do anything about that. So ignored it. They knew there was an injured incapacitated woman for whom care was required and chose to do nothing about it. This happens in Scotland too BTW... See Ducati, I know you valet cars for a living, I also know you aren't an "oligarch" but for many people THESE are the things that are their critical issues. You seem to suggest that makes them foolish, naive, economically illiterate or ignorant at how the world works and that trying to take the opportunity to have the power to do things differently is foolish. It's not. Interest rates, currency unions, GERS reports don't make a society, people do.

Sorry to hear your news, genuinely sorry. Fiscal management / economics / EU membership / trident / renewables : all add up to the economic means to deliver a fairer soceity and I support your desire 100% on wishing for a decent society, however we all need more info on the big issues, if these are not planned / thought through, then we can only hope that things would be fairer in a seperate Scotland, I would like to know not hope, that a fairer society would be delivered.