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Thread: Why are you voting No?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ducati View Post
    You just proved my point: "You will be given the absolute right to stay here". I already have the absolute right to stay here.
    Then nothing changes does it

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by squidge View Post
    Then nothing changes does it
    Look. It is all about how you feel isn't it? You do, I feel, deliberately miss the point a lot. Just to make it clear. I don't need your permission now.

    I don't want to need it in future.

  3. #43
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    for clarity in an earlier post Squidge stated "you WILL BE GIVEN the absolute right to stay here"
    Why should he be given the right to stay when he already has the right to stay as things stand now?
    W.A.T.P.

  4. #44
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    You are right "be given" is perhaps the wrong phrase and it is my phrase so if Ducato and mi16 or anyone else is offended by that phrase then that's my fault. So let's take it away from the shrieking hysteria that often accompanies discussions on nationality and residence and get down to FACTS.

    Fact - The white paper says that everyone living in Scotland at independence will automatically have the right to Scottish citizenship and residency. English, Scottish, Polish, Pakistani, Indian etc etc

    Fact - This will not replace your British, Polish, German, French Lebanese etc etc citizenship but will be additional.

    Example - I am English, born in England. I have no Scottish ancestry. The day before independence I will be English, a British citizen and an EU citizen living in Scotland as is my right as a British citizen and EU citizen. The day Scotland becomes independent I will be English, a British Citizen, an EU citizen living in an Independent Scotland as is my right as a British and EU citizen living here.The only difference is that on Independence Day I can choose to ALSO be a Scottish citizen if I want.

    Fact - The right of residency is not changing one iota.

    Fact - The only change is that I can choose to have something else as well.

    Opinion - I probably won't to be honest. I don't feel any need to have a Scottish passport. I don't identify myself as Scottish although I do identify myself as one of Scotland's people because I live here and I am invested in this country. I will always be English and British and just like my English and British parents and sister who live in an independent France, I don't see any conflict between the place I was born and the place I live. I do however accept that this issue appears to be fundamentally important for Ducati.
    Last edited by squidge; 25-Apr-14 at 14:17.

  5. #45
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    not offended in any shape or form, just put the completely wrong way.
    W.A.T.P.

  6. #46
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    Good and sorry

  7. #47
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    no worries
    W.A.T.P.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by squidge View Post
    You are right "be given" is perhaps the wrong phrase and it is my phrase so if Ducato and mi16 or anyone else is offended by that phrase then that's my fault. So let's take it away from the shrieking hysteria that often accompanies discussions on nationality and residence and get down to FACTS. Fact - The white paper says that everyone living in Scotland at independence will automatically have the right to Scottish citizenship and residency. English, Scottish, Polish, Pakistani, Indian etc etc Fact - This will not replace your British, Polish, German, French Lebanese etc etc citizenship but will be additional. Example - I am English, born in England. I have no Scottish ancestry. The day before independence I will be English, a British citizen and an EU citizen living in Scotland as is my right as a British citizen and EU citizen. The day Scotland becomes independent I will be English, a British Citizen, an EU citizen living in an Independent Scotland as is my right as a British and EU citizen living here.The only difference is that on Independence Day I can choose to ALSO be a Scottish citizen if I want. Fact - The right of residency is not changing one iota. Fact - The only change is that I can choose to have something else as well. Opinion - I probably won't to be honest. I don't feel any need to have a Scottish passport. I don't identify myself as Scottish although I do identify myself as one of Scotland's people because I live here and I am invested in this country. I will always be English and British and just like my English and British parents and sister who live in an independent France, I don't see any conflict between the place I was born and the place I live. I do however accept that this issue appears to be fundamentally important for Ducati.
    Squidge, a wee question, Why are you continuing to post extracts from Eck's Santa clause wish list, when this thread is titled "Why are you voting no?"? Nothing to do with the reasons we are voting NO.
    Once the original Grumpy Owld Man but alas no more

  9. #49
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    Golach honey you should try to keep up. I responded to previous posts. I absented myself from the thread to start with but as it was clear the thread had changed and moved on without me it seemed to be appropriate to respond to the questions being asked. Which as you know is what I always try to do pleasantly and politely.

  10. #50
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    Just want clarify this,I don't see anything else in the white paper Part 3 only referring to "Habitual residents will be Scottish citizens",nothing to say I can keep my identity at all,maybe its just me not understanding something.
    Their is no other detail unless there is another white paper.

  11. #51
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    It's page 271 onwards Geoff - it says

    "At the point of independence, this Government proposes an
    inclusive model of citizenship for people whether or not they
    define themselves as primarily or exclusively Scottish or wish
    to become a Scottish passport holder. People in Scotland are
    accustomed to multiple identities, be they national, regional,
    ethnic, linguistic or religious, and a commitment to a multicultural
    Scotland will be a cornerstone of the nation on
    independence.
    We plan that British citizens habitually resident in Scotland
    on independence will be considered Scottish citizens. This will
    include British citizens who hold dual citizenship with another
    country."

    It then goes on to say that

    "The UK allows dual or multiple citizenship for British citizens.
    If a British citizen acquires citizenship and a passport of another
    country, this does not affect their British citizenship, right to
    hold a British passport or right to live in the UK. The Scottish
    Government will also allow dual citizenship."

    There are also a series of questions with answers on citizenship from page 495 onwards - questions number 372 to 379 and following that there are questions on passports.

    It is worth also knowing that the UK Border Agency leaflet BN18 - Information about dual nationality says this

    "A person is a dual national if he or she holds more than one nationality or citizenship at the same time. There are normally no restrictions, in United Kingdom law, on British nationals having the citizenship of one or more other countries as well. So you will not need to give up any other nationality if you become British (but see paragraphs 2 - 4 below). Similarly, if you are a British national and you acquire another nationality, you will not normally lose your British nationality."

    The "normally" refers to situations where the country you become a citizen of requires you to give up your British citizenship as a seperate issue from the law in the UK. UK law allows you to have dual citizenship with ANY other country in the world. Given that this is the case although the White paper says

    " It will be for the
    rest of the UK to decide whether it allows dual UK/Scottish
    citizenship, but we expect the normal rules to extend to
    Scottish citizens."

    any suggestion therefore that the UK would deny Dual Citizenship to British Citizens living in Scotland is frankly laughable

    Hope that helps Geoff

  12. #52
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    Here we go again, a thread entitled Why are you voting no, being taken over by Squidge, and her pro Eck propaganda. Squidge as nice as I know you are, take your propaganda to a thread that covers the pro independence discussions. Just stop stealing our Pro NO threads
    Once the original Grumpy Owld Man but alas no more

  13. #53
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    Golach, sweetheart, I am answering what is being asked. That's all. I stayed away when the thread was about why people are voting no and only once they stopped simply saying why they were voting no and began asking questions did I come back to the thread. Don't want to read my stuff then block my posts but I WILL answer questions Golach if they are asked - you know me well enough to know that. People need to be informed however they vote. Propaganda? Maybe. But references are as they say, available on request if not included in post.

  14. #54
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    I am also voting No because as an Englishman I find it is my duty to keep the Union together so that UK decisions are determined in Parliament on English terms and conditions rather than on a federal basis because English MPs will swamp out the voices of the rest of the MPs.
    Last edited by Rheghead; 25-Apr-14 at 17:49.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    I am also voting No because as an Englishman I find it is my duty to keep the Union together so that UK decisions are determined in Parliament on English terms and conditions rather than on a federal basis because English MPs will swamp out the voices of the rest of the MPs.
    Good man

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    I am also voting No because as an Englishman I find it is my duty to keep the Union together so that UK decisions are determined in Parliament on English terms and conditions rather than on a federal basis because English MPs will swamp out the voices of the rest of the MPs.
    it's strange how a huge number of english people don't share this 'duty' and actually support independance for scotland ... oh wait, that's right ... they live in england

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogermellie View Post
    it's strange how a huge number of english people don't share this 'duty' and actually support independance for scotland ... oh wait, that's right ... they live in england
    The opinion of an England resident layman is irrelevant
    W.A.T.P.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by mi16 View Post
    The opinion of an England resident layman is irrelevant
    does this include ducati, rheghead and all the orgs other resident englanders ?

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogermellie View Post
    does this include ducati, rheghead and all the orgs other resident englanders ?
    If they reside in anywhere other than Scotland then yes, I'm not clued up on where orgers live to be honest
    W.A.T.P.

  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by mi16 View Post
    If they reside in anywhere other than Scotland then yes, I'm not clued up on where orgers live to be honest
    sorry, i was being a pedant, i meant they reside on the org

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