I give up and throw in the towel.

[Kenn]

I am getting increasingly dismayed by the rhetoric being propounded by both sides in The Referendum debate.
I have yet to hear any argument by either side that I find convincing, reliable or factual.
I find the constant harping about Westminster, The Conservatives and today Margaret Thatcher, galling and in some cases bordering on racist .
I was however very surprised when I read "The Declaration of '45, " it seems to have a strange harmony to the ideals being propounded by The SNP.
I have a great respect for history, but we should move on, learn the lessons and strive for a better world not just hurl abuse at each other.

Well we are all entitled to our dreams.

[squidge]

What do you want to be convinced about?

[Rheghead]

I agree Lizz but one thing cannot be clouded by silly rhetoric and that is geography. Scotland is ~40% area of Great Britain but only has 8% of the population to maintain the same standard of proportionally larger transport links and communications. Then we'd need the same diplomatic service. It is a matter of size of scale meaning more taxation in an independent Scotland.

[orkneycadian]

I agree Lizz. We were promised a referendum. Not this farce that we have had foisted on us, by an administration who seem to have nothing better to do (like run a government). In setting a date for a referendum way in the future, they have brought all this on themselves. They could have arranged the referendum, in little over a few weeks time, just like a general election.

We didn't have this farce with status quo, so its apparent that its all "Yes" related.

[golach]

I am with you Lizz, the constant lying and posturing from our First minister, is becoming farcical, thankfully its is just making my resolve to vote No all the more stronger.

[billmoseley]

i have stopped looking at most post to do with independence now and have decided that a week before i will come on and say how feel. What people seem to have forgotten is which ever way it goes we will still have live together.

[smithp]

I agree Lizz. We were promised a referendum. Not this farce that we have had foisted on us, by an administration who seem to have nothing better to do (like run a government). In setting a date for a referendum way in the future, they have brought all this on themselves. They could have arranged the referendum, in little over a few weeks time, just like a general election.

We didn't have this farce with status quo, so its apparent that its all "Yes" related.

Leave the Quo out of it! They've enough strife looking for the 4th chord.

[oldchemist]

I think that there are only two facts of which we can be certain, 1) we know how things are in a United Kingdom, 2) we don't know how things will be in an independent Scotland.

[Bobinovich]

I think that there are only two facts of which we can be certain, 1) we know how things are in a United Kingdom and it really isn't all as rosy as Westminster would like us believe, 2) we don't know how things will be in an independent Scotland but the signs show plenty of potential if the people are willing to make that leap.

Fixed it for ya!

[kosacid]

thing is if its a no vote i think wee better be prepared for a good walking over, so im going to vote yes, im not even listing to all the muck throwing i dont care what they have to say at the end of the day, when wee have own rule im sure wee will put foot to ass and kick them all out if they are no good, at least it will be our choice who is in, the way it is just now wee are Westminster`s puppets, i would say no though if wee got to stay united but governed by owner self's with no ties to Westminster rules

[Moira]

I am getting increasingly dismayed by the rhetoric being propounded by both sides in The Referendum debate.
I have yet to hear any argument by either side that I find convincing, reliable or factual.
I find the constant harping about Westminster, The Conservatives and today Margaret Thatcher, galling and in some cases bordering on racist .
I was however very surprised when I read "The Declaration of '45, " it seems to have a strange harmony to the ideals being propounded by The SNP.
I have a great respect for history, but we should move on, learn the lessons and strive for a better world not just hurl abuse at each other.

Well we are all entitled to our dreams.

Never throw in the towel Lizz, some of us have still got something to give.

[RagnarRocks]

Watched the STV referendum debate last night, thoroughly dismayed that neither considered it was worth a constructive debate to let us hear what's going on a televised shouting match isn't impressive.

[Mrs Bradey]

Watched the STV referendum debate last night, thoroughly dismayed that neither considered it was worth a constructive debate to let us hear what's going on a televised shouting match isn't impressive.

none of the media handling, and childish politics of the referendum issue so far, has been impressive!!

[weezer 316]

Watched the STV referendum debate last night, thoroughly dismayed that neither considered it was worth a constructive debate to let us hear what's going on a televised shouting match isn't impressive.

Wasn't too great although Lamont edged it I would say. Her jibe about Osbourne turning from someone who hates Scotland into Santa claus with a yes vote was superb, nothing sturgeon could say to it. They would be advised hammer away at the currency issue, not that the SNP will answer any questions on it anyway.

And its amazing how many non-snp supporters (allegedly) that are going to vote yes wont criticise this stance of theirs. The "we are being bullied", poor we us mantra is exactly what they want and all they have actually.

[Partan]

I think that there are only two facts of which we can be certain, 1) we know how things are in a United Kingdom, 2) we don't know how things will be in an independent Scotland.

I think that there is a third “fact” – 3) we don’t know how things will be in a post-no Scotland.

We “don’t know” potential voters in Scotland need a less simplistic (and perhaps less partial) analysis than that implied by oldchemist. It is this, and other, simplistic analyses that maintain the “I don’t know” view.

To the credit of the SNP government they have set out in some detail how they see Scotland moving on. The White paper has me amongst its critics but at least I have visibility of the SNP’s arguments.

The No campaign parties resolutely refuse to tell us what Scotland can expect from Westminster in the event of a No vote.

Possible scenarios:
1 More of the same – welfare and public service cuts, exit from Europe, strict limitations on immigration, ignoring tax avoidance and evasion. These are policies strongly driven by the Conservatives (aware of UKIP popularity in Tory constituencies), broadly supported by the Liberal Democrats and, I am sorry to say, New Labour. Little change is expected following the 2015 UK election irrespective of the complexion of the winner(s).
2 Pressures on Health and Education spending following the Westminster emphasis on privatising NHS services where they can and the enthusiastic promotion of “free” schools. Any reduction in spending in these sectors will have a knock-on effect on the Barnett formula for the Scottish block grant.
3 Removal, or modification, of the Barnett formula resulting in a reduction of the block grant.
4 Rescinding or redefinition of the Devolution settlement.
5 Increased powers under devolution.

I am sure that the good people of this forum can suggest/support other scenarios but what I have outlined demonstrates why the No campaign have done little to persuade me to their camp. The unwillingness of the No campaign parties to allow Devo Max or Devo Lite (however you care to name it) as a Referendum choice filled me with foreboding. It suggests that they are unwilling to commit themselves to anything.

Partan

[RagnarRocks]

Groan ....loosing the will to live with these Yes campaigners...they just don't understand what throwing the towel in means..

[porshiepoo]

I'm sick of it too. There's too much argueing that gets way too heated and downright nasty. If the SNP intended to divide the people in Scotland with those in England in hope of a yes vote then they're going about it the wrong way. The only divide I have seen is between Scotlands own people and unfortunately I don't think it will simmer down even once the vote is through - whichever way it goes.
I'm more than happy to have an intelligent debate on the subject but not with morons that are so obviously racist (either way) and are basing their votes mainly on that ignorant, unintelligent, old as the hills mentality.

[Big Gaz]

Can you imagine the problems if someone who is a die-hard "YES" man and Scotland lose and then he finds out that half or maybe more of his mates or neighbours voted "NO". If that someone is the slightest wee bit unhinged, there could very likely be mayhem! I still reckon too that if the "NO" vote goes through, not only will we find it difficult to continue with Westminster but English people living up here might just possibly find it suddenly got a lot colder....

[Oddquine]

Can you imagine the problems if someone who is a die-hard "YES" man and Scotland lose and then he finds out that half or maybe more of his mates or neighbours voted "NO". If that someone is the slightest wee bit unhinged, there could very likely be mayhem! I still reckon too that if the "NO" vote goes through, not only will we find it difficult to continue with Westminster but English people living up here might just possibly find it suddenly got a lot colder....

That sounds a shade on the same lines as this The Independent article..
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...d-9144967.html

Think it's quite insulting myself..... a democratic vote is a democratic vote and we will have to live with the results........until the next time! I'm a die-hard YES woman, but I'm certainly not going to beat up my three cousins who intend to vote no.

I do think though that Independence is only a matter of time....after the patronising and arrogant kind of campaign the political nay-sayers have been putting on so far, the Union is broken past repair....and its end is only a matter of time..though if it doesn't happen this time round, it'll likely be too late for me to see it.

Back in 2012, there was a bit in the Scotsman, quoting Peter Cruddas, saying, among other things He [Cameron] told me that he wants to fight to keep the Union… he told me that was, those were his true feelings, however, even if they’re not, we as a party have to be seen to be fighting to keep the Union together, even if we don’t agree with it, because, at the end of it all, if the Scots say ‘we’re out of here’ and they want to go independent, we can turn around and say it’s not what we wanted, it’s not what we campaigned for, you can’t have this, you can’t have that, and you can get on with it.”

[ducati]

I worry too. You only have to look around the world today (and not too far away) to see what can happen when a bunch of nutters don't get their own way.