SNP claims over EU membership not so clear

[squidge]

So the EU commision, and at least 3 foreign govts (who actually decide) are wrong in your book. Good. can you supply evidence of similar weight and calibre, because if you cant your failing to reason honestly.

No I am not saying they are wrong - did I say that? Did I say I was right? I said - in my opinion, based on what I have read over the last couple of years, Scotland is likely to be able to negotiate membership of the EU from within and is not likely to be "kicked out of the EU" and therefore I do not accept that Scotland will have to reapply. You have chosen to form an opinion that is different and your opinion is based on what you think is likely. You have given more weight to articles quoting politicians who have their own agenda, and have in some of the cases retracted what they said or complained they were mis-quoted than I did. .....and you know what Weezer...... thats ok

[Oddquine]

Well I read a " Possible success " so its success was by no means guaranteed and " probable failure " again not a guaranteed failure. Like most business if you go against the big boys sometimes you win sometimes you lose in this case it was a definitive loss. Why would England at the time allow Scotland to make a success of something that was a rival sounds to me you can't accept commercial realities. Sounds to me very much like you can't accept the cutthroat world that lay outside these isles another reason you've not considered fully independence and its consequences

Nothing in life is guaranteed.....but death. You can however influence outcomes re timing of that death by adjusting your way of living and avoiding dangerous situations, occupations hobbies, etc. But whatever you do to prolong your life, it is still possible that you will be walking along the street minding your own business and be attacked and killed by a nutter with a gun. The English Parliament was Darien's equivalent of a nutter with a gun.

Given taxes were being levied on Scotland to help fund England's wars, just because they were theoretically joined together by the monarchy, it seems a shade shortsighted to not assume that a taxed success would have been a good way to cut the English National Debt. But that would have made economic sense......and Westminster had no more economic sense then than it does now. But then Westminster worked then as it does now......they were lobbied by pressure groups for businesses/companies.and did what they were told. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

[squidge]

You may think you do. Ultimately if you need more welfare you have to pay higher taxes. Problem Scotland has is the low proportion of high tax payers.

For example: I understand that one third of all Scottish households are in receipt of housing benefit. Now I don't really understand how it works but I imagine that these households won't be making a net contribution. If they aren't then the pool of contributors would be very low indeed. Add to this, we don't have the mega earners that the rest of the UK has, in cities like Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham etc. I still fail to see how the welfare megastate you envisage can be supported.

Jeez Ducati - HAve you been taking lessons from the producers of Benefit Street?

I have never advocated a welfare megastate and I recall responding to you directly saying that I do not advocate an increase in benefits.

Are you the Daily Mail's North Britain correspondent?

[RagnarRocks]

The daily mail is the most widely read newspaper in the whole of the uk so basically squidge you're insulting working/middle class aspirations well done. And you still haven't answered my earlier question regard finance. Out of a country of 65 million people do you honestly think 5 million can produce enough finance to fund free health,care free prescriptions and all the other niceties that independence proponents aspire to if the whole of the uk combined is struggling with the bill how do you propose a significantly smaller population with higher unemployment, more alcoholics and drug users, more obesity and poorer health including all the pension provisions is going to get paid for. Put down the one thing the SNP have failed to do hard facts and figures not idealism

[Kenn]

What worries me is that if any one really believes that which ever way the vote goes, the electorate will define a future Scotland, they are living in cloud cuckoo land.
The electorate were totally undecided at the last general election which resulted in a coalition government at Westminster since when there have been constant gripes about the matter with mutterings "That's not what I voted for."
Because of the lack of decision and the bad turn out at the polls that is precisely what they did vote for and can blame no one but themselves.
I digress, this thread was about The EU and Scotland's membership, no doubt an independent Scotland would be welcome after having gone through the necessary application, financial probes etcetera but none of us has any idea how long that would take and where The EU will be headed over the next few years.

[ducati]

Jeez Ducati - HAve you been taking lessons from the producers of Benefit Street?

I have never advocated a welfare megastate and I recall responding to you directly saying that I do not advocate an increase in benefits.

Are you the Daily Mail's North Britain correspondent?

You don't need to be insulting. You will see from my post on that thread that I agree with you. Just let us know where the money is coming from. Or do you think a new indy Scottish government can do more with less?

As to the mega state, yes, that is what you are advocating and yes I am a conservative and believe the less government, the better.

[squidge]

You are insulted???

Gosh ...are people touchy in Januaryar! Dear me! Im not sorry. I think the daily mail is a rag of the worst order and that it publishes stories and pictures which are shameless in their manipulation. You maybe werent as subtle as the mail but Welfare megastate and the suggestion that I want more welfare when in fact I want LESS welfare.

And Yes the Scottish government can do more with less. Jeepers NODDY could do a better job than the current government are doing.

[RagnarRocks]

So your suggesting that by voting labour the smash the economy party with balls and Milliband life would of been better. Each time labour has been in power they trash the economy, the conservatives repair it then everyone doesn't like them because they are the nasty ones . God help us if the SNP had hold of,the purse strings oh boy no boom and bust just bust and more bust

[squidge]

So your suggesting that by voting labour the smash the economy party with balls and Milliband life would of been better. Each time labour has been in power they trash the economy, the conservatives repair it then everyone doesn't like them because they are the nasty ones . God help us if the SNP had hold of,the purse strings oh boy no boom and bust just bust and more bust

ME?

Im suggesting nothing of the sort.... I have said before but I will say it again - that there is NO opportunity for change within the current system in Westminster because you cant put a pin between them. THATS one of the reasons for voting YES in the referendum.

(she sighs heavily)

We have the opportunity to deveop a society which takes a different route and offers alternatives to the three shades of blue which dominates Westminster. There is NO opportunity to do that within the UK. Its not simply about them being "nasty" although if the cap fits.......... If you look at Welfare there is a massive amount of money being wasted because the programmes being delivered by the current government and started by the last government are FAILING. People are not finding work, in fact I know that civil servants have been told they HAVE to prioritise finding work for people on the Jobs programme because the jobs programme is not getting enough results. Those people finding work go down as a result for the programme when they arent responisble for the result.That is extra cost over and above the amount these companies are being paid to deliver erm ... nothing.

The amount of money being spent on Appeals is absolutely disgusting. Half of the decisions made on fitness for work after ATOS assessments are being overturned - that costs an astronomical amount of money. But yeah the Scottish government are just so much worse than that despite the SNP led administrations balancing the budget. And even Scottish Labour lived within their means although why on earth they couldnt find something to spend the1.5bn they returned to the treasury over their two administations despite the fact that £1.5bn would have been enough in 2006 to build the Glasgow and Edinburgh Airport Rail Links and upgrade the entire A9 to dual-carriageway spreading the benefits around the country and with £190m still left over.

A further bit of research on this subject suggests that the Scottish Labour led administration not only failed to spend the money they could have spent on projects to benefit scotland but A Labour council, (N.Lanarkshire) operating under a Labour Scottish Executive and a Labour government at Westminster, needed to spend £150m on its schools, but rather than use a small fraction of the effectively free money that was sitting around unspent in the Executive’s coffers, signed off on a PFI contract that would cost Scottish taxpayers £729m to do the exact same job. Now ducati is all for smaller governments but what were the Labour party thinking - they are led by their masters at Westminster that has been absolutely clear for years. Take swipes at the SNP all you like but at the very least they do not kowtow to ridiculous Westminster directives.

I also disagree with you on the point of what's best for the future considering the whole of the UK is less than the size of some American states

Just to pick up on this point I recently read that according to the European Commission it’s small countries who are the most wealth producing with the UK trailing behind the likes of Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria, Finland and even Ireland. All those small countries are also rated by the UN as happier societies than the UK and they all have less poverty than the UK.

[piratelassie]

Is'nt it obvious that after independence the so called questions about NATO, the EU and currancy will of course be settled, and the odds of a favourable outcome are very good because fo our resorces and geographical position etc. All we need is confidence in ourselves.

[golach]

All we need is confidence in ourselves.

And just how much is this "confidence" going to cost?

[Mrs Bradey]

You are insulted???Gosh ...are people touchy in Januaryar! Dear me! Im not sorry. I think the daily mail is a rag of the worst order and that it publishes stories and pictures which are shameless in their manipulation. You maybe werent as subtle as the mail but Welfare megastate and the suggestion that I want more welfare when in fact I want LESS welfare. And Yes the Scottish government can do more with less. Jeepers NODDY could do a better job than the current government are doing.

.....Really....

[ducati]

I'd be interested if anyone knows just how many tax payers there are in Scotland?

[orkneycadian]

Have you folkies over there had a copy of "Yes!", the 12 page Yes campaign "Newspaper" shoved through your letterboxes yet? The one that has the huge headline suggesting we will all get a £600 bonus if we vote Yes? But only dedicates 3 column inches to the EU question, without actually answering it, instead posing the reciprocal question of;

"Does anyone really think the EU wouldn't welcome Scotland as a member?"

Well, the EU boffins themselves have not been exactly suggestive of an instant admission....

[piratelassie]

How much will lack of confidence cost.

And just how much is this "confidence" going to cost?

[piratelassie]

At present Scotland enjoys devolved perks from Wesrminster. If we don't have the courage and foresight to vote Yes in September we should do the honourable thing and surrender our free prescriptions, university tuition fees etc. and be equal with the rest of the UK.

[golach]

At present Scotland enjoys devolved perks from Wesrminster. If we don't have the courage and foresight to vote Yes in September we should do the honourable thing and surrender our free prescriptions, university tuition fees etc. and be equal with the rest of the UK.

You forgot the free bus passes that the Labour government got us

[Mrs Bradey]

No I am not saying they are wrong - did I say that? Did I say I was right? I said - in my opinion, based on what I have read over the last couple of years, Scotland is likely to be able to negotiate membership of the EU from within and is not likely to be "kicked out of the EU" and therefore I do not accept that Scotland will have to reapply. You have chosen to form an opinion that is different and your opinion is based on what you think is likely. You have given more weight to articles quoting politicians who have their own agenda, and have in some of the cases retracted what they said or complained they were mis-quoted than I did. .....and you know what Weezer...... thats ok

what's with reapply ? I didn't think rScotland existed, let alone previously a member of the eu..... ?