Royal Marine Commando

[golach]

Kevin, if you get a chance, listen to the recording of the Marines speaking. And also what you have to take into consideration is, the jury was not made up of "civvies" it was made up of Military personnel, who have been .

There is no "jury" at a Military Court marital a panel Judges made up of senior officers.

[Django]

I actually can not believe some morons on here are arguing against the Geneva Convention. This board has now officially gone full retard. Are some of you actually suggesting war crimes are perfectly acceptable if "our boys" are committing them. Most people seem to be saying "the Taliban don't play by the Geneva convention, so we don't have to either". People are talking about what 'they' would do if the situation was reversed, because we obviously want to be just like 'them' don't we?

The guy who captured it all reached up to 'turn off' his headcam before doing it. Turns out it was already off and he switched it on instead. They specifically mention the Geneva Convention on the video.

Makes you wonder how much of this stuff goes on when they don't screw up like this and get away with it.

I wouldnt call offing a wounded insurgent a "war crime", proper use of a bullet if you ask me. I was one of the "they" once and in more than one situation seriously considered "offing" an individual in Bosnia. I know what I saw and felt and not once did I get a chuffy on about taking the high ground. I cannot tell you how great taking the high ground made us feel as we watched as the Serbs lead people past us who eventually ended up in a mass grave. Give you a warm fuzzy feeling inside it does. Still we will be out of Afghanistan soon, once the Taliban are back hanging people from the swimming pool diving board in Kabul and throwing acid in the faces of people who just want an education you can lay all that on us taking the high ground and raise a glass to it. Why dont you throw a party ?? .. or perhaps maybe you will wish we had gone down to their level and won ??

Basically what I am saying, and what some just dont grasp is that sometimes you need to get your hands dirty. Not doing so is why we failed in Bosnia, its why we will fail in Afghanistan. Way I look at it that insurgent wont be RPG'ing anyone inthe future. Cant see how thats a bad thing. Better that than us patching him up and sending him back out to have another attempt at sending one of our guys home in a flag draped coffin. And make no mistake some of those have fixed up and sent on their way will have done just that.

[RecQuery]

Ignoring the fact that we agreed to the Geneva Conventions. I'm pretty sure the other sides in Bosnia, Afghanistan et al have rationalised their actions in pretty much the exact same way you are trying to rationalise others. Actually I think I've read similar statements in transcripts from The Hague.

[rob murray]

I wouldnt call offing a wounded insurgent a "war crime", proper use of a bullet if you ask me. I was one of the "they" once and in more than one situation seriously considered "offing" an individual in Bosnia. I know what I saw and felt and not once did I get a chuffy on about taking the high ground. I cannot tell you how great taking the high ground made us feel as we watched as the Serbs lead people past us who eventually ended up in a mass grave. Give you a warm fuzzy feeling inside it does. Still we will be out of Afghanistan soon, once the Taliban are back hanging people from the swimming pool diving board in Kabul and throwing acid in the faces of people who just want an education you can lay all that on us taking the high ground and raise a glass to it. Why dont you throw a party ?? .. or perhaps maybe you will wish we had gone down to their level and won ??

Basically what I am saying, and what some just dont grasp is that sometimes you need to get your hands dirty. Not doing so is why we failed in Bosnia, its why we will fail in Afghanistan. Way I look at it that insurgent wont be RPG'ing anyone inthe future. Cant see how thats a bad thing. Better that than us patching him up and sending him back out to have another attempt at sending one of our guys home in a flag draped coffin. And make no mistake some of those have fixed up and sent on their way will have done just that.

A difficult one, you obviously have the experience and what you are saying is based on personal experiences and in my mind right, the hypocrisy lies in the political / higher echelons of military, yes there is the geneva convention / code which "they" purport to stand by...but come on, look at the past there are scores of incidents whereby the geneva convention was, when it suited the powers to be, blind sided, why single out one soldier around one incident in a complex arena ? Do you know when the first concentration camps were found ( WW2 ) by US troops, they handed out summary justice, ie lined up camp guards and machine gunned them, until stopped by senior officers. Clear breach of geneva code but summary justice. In many occasions in war there are well documented scenarios of battle where due to logistics etc no prisoners were to be taken orders from on high. So its a complex situation whereby one soldier is being sacrificed to satisfy preferred clean hands / moral high ground.

[cptdodger]

There is no "jury" at a Military Court marital a panel Judges made up of senior officers.

And if you had read in my first post, you would know I have nothing to do with the Military. However it still does not change the fact, no matter how you describe them, it was the Military that found him guilty - not civilians.

[mi16]

I wouldnt call offing a wounded insurgent a "war crime", proper use of a bullet if you ask me. I was one of the "they" once and in more than one situation seriously considered "offing" an individual in Bosnia. I know what I saw and felt and not once did I get a chuffy on about taking the high ground. I cannot tell you how great taking the high ground made us feel as we watched as the Serbs lead people past us who eventually ended up in a mass grave. Give you a warm fuzzy feeling inside it does. Still we will be out of Afghanistan soon, once the Taliban are back hanging people from the swimming pool diving board in Kabul and throwing acid in the faces of people who just want an education you can lay all that on us taking the high ground and raise a glass to it. Why dont you throw a party ?? .. or perhaps maybe you will wish we had gone down to their level and won ?? Basically what I am saying, and what some just dont grasp is that sometimes you need to get your hands dirty. Not doing so is why we failed in Bosnia, its why we will fail in Afghanistan. Way I look at it that insurgent wont be RPG'ing anyone inthe future. Cant see how thats a bad thing. Better that than us patching him up and sending him back out to have another attempt at sending one of our guys home in a flag draped coffin. And make no mistake some of those have fixed up and sent on their way will have done just that.

Interesting use of the word "offing" why not use the correct word "murdering"?

[rob murray]

Interesting use of the word "offing" why not use the correct word "murdering"?

Murder...your greying the issue....if it can be classified as murder....then the entire history of warfare is based on murder / killing...what is the difference between the two ? A moral call, some would support the soldier doing what he did within the context, some condemn, your stance I believe is condemnation. WOuld you have arrested the concentration camp guards / officers as previously mentioned and went down the route of legal justice or have shot them there and then...summary justice ?

[mi16]

Murder...your greying the issue....if it can be classified as murder....then the entire history of warfare is based on murder / killing...what is the difference between the two ? A moral call, some would support the soldier doing what he did within the context, some condemn, your stance I believe is condemnation. WOuld you have arrested the concentration camp guards / officers as previously mentioned and went down the route of legal justice or have shot them there and then...summary justice ?

The Geneva convention and Court Marshall can differentiate between the two, why cant we?
Because war crimes have been comitted in the passed and swept under that carpet and/or disguised as something else it doesnt mean that we should continue in this manner.

[rob murray]

The Geneva convention and Court Marshall can differentiate between the two, why cant we?
Because war crimes have been comitted in the passed and swept under that carpet and/or disguised as something else it doesnt mean that we should continue in this manner.

Fine your entitled to your opinion, to me its a fine line, war "crimes" as you put it have always been committed, some more than others ( countries ) but I am uncomfortable with the generic use of the word crime and lack of contextual appreciation. The Taliban can be compared to the very worst. Why are we there, exposing young troops to a guerilla led situation where one side doesn't play by the rules...... well that is another story !!

[RagnarRocks]

My opinion is that every serviceman who has been in a situation where fire is exchanged has become judge jury and executioner when he squeezes off each round, there is an issue of how things are defined in legal terms but the reality of it is its killing by whatever other name you wish to call it.This Marine has killed a Taliban fighter who had already exchanged in the duel for death the execution had been sanctioned from elsewhere when the apache opened fire, the fact that the Taliban fighter was critically wounded shows that a kill order had already been placed on him from elsewhere but by chance its effects had not been terminal. I have no sympathy whatsoever with the Taliban fighter he knew what he was doing the marine acted on brute instinct maybe and crossed some wavey moral line which shifts like sand with each given situation, his mistake getting caught he has acted in the theatre of war rules are drawn up by arbitrators who aren't in the situation but judged by others in the harsh stare of pure legality and with the joys of hindsight. Yes he should be punished as the rules are by the greater part for the benefit of all hence they are upheld more frequently than not by most armies of the world. But they are totally disregarded by this modern breed of terrorist who uses our rules as a weapon against us and have no rules whatsoever. So I think that his punishment should be tempered bearing in mind his long good service and rank, the circumstances of that tour and consistency of action during those 5 months I do not see that destroying this man who has given so much of his life already to the defence of those freedoms we all love and desire so much would achieve anything or really serve any purpose is this really what we call justice ?

[rob murray]

My opinion is that every serviceman who has been in a situation where fire is exchanged has become judge jury and executioner when he squeezes off each round, there is an issue of how things are defined in legal terms but the reality of it is its killing by whatever other name you wish to call it.This Marine has killed a Taliban fighter who had already exchanged in the duel for death the execution had been sanctioned from elsewhere when the apache opened fire, the fact that the Taliban fighter was critically wounded shows that a kill order had already been placed on him from elsewhere but by chance its effects had not been terminal. I have no sympathy whatsoever with the Taliban fighter he knew what he was doing the marine acted on brute instinct maybe and crossed some wavey moral line which shifts like sand with each given situation, his mistake getting caught he has acted in the theatre of war rules are drawn up by arbitrators who aren't in the situation but judged by others in the harsh stare of pure legality and with the joys of hindsight. Yes he should be punished as the rules are by the greater part for the benefit of all hence they are upheld more frequently than not by most armies of the world. But they are totally disregarded by this modern breed of terrorist who uses our rules as a weapon against us and have no rules whatsoever. So I think that his punishment should be tempered bearing in mind his long good service and rank, the circumstances of that tour and consistency of action during those 5 months I do not see that destroying this man who has given so much of his life already to the defence of those freedoms we all love and desire so much would achieve anything or really serve any purpose is this really what we call justice ?

Very well put, and no there is no justice here ! At worst the guy should be discharged from the forces not jailed !

they are totally disregarded by this modern breed of terrorist who uses our rules as a weapon against us and have no rules whatsoever. So I think that his punishment should be tempered bearing in mind his long good service and rank, the circumstances of that tour and consistency of action during those 5 months I do not see that destroying this man who has given so much of his life already to the defence of those freedoms we all love and desire so much would achieve anything or really serve any purpose is this really what we call justice ?[/QUOTE]