Would an independent Scotland gain access to NATO

[RagnarRocks]

The last regiment I served with 32aer was based in north eastern Germany it was a regular occurrence to have active edge ( mass deployment) because the Soviets had decided it would be an amusing gig to run thousand of tanks toward the border just to test our readiness anyone who served in BAOR would remember these events. The Air Force would be able to tell you how often bear and badger bombers would probe before being turned back and then we have the naval incidents.The Cold War was very real and often played so close to the wire it was lucky we didn't have another war. No paranoia when I say the life expectancy of my regiment should war break,out was 30seconds ahh the joys of imagery theatre nuclear weapons.

[Phill]

And today the UK & NATO's air defences are still regularly tested by Russia. And as do we, theirs, we'll not so much now as we're missing long range recon' aircraft. But we can still send a couple of tiffys & a tanker northwards.

[piratelassie]

Sounds like yet more scare mongering to me this entry. The world wo'nt explode and the seas wo'nt dry up if we vote to rule ourselves next year. It's an oppertunity we ca'nt afford to miss.Can you imagine what Westminster will do if we vote no, "right you had your chance, you did'nt take it so shut your mouth and take what's coming, No free Education, No NHS, privitation of water, etc etc " and if you are honest with yourself you know that's what will happen in time.

As with all things National Security is a major concern for small countries surrounded by larger better armed neighbours. Whilst at the moment all is peace and quiet in the Northern European front, history tells us this area is prone to frequent flare ups so can we be assured that an Independant Scotland would automatically gain access to NATO or as seems more likely have nothing of worth to offer with the SNPs stand on Faslane and not allowing the Americans or English to continue using it for their nuclear fleets. So we would end up alone not a member of NATO and no guarantees we would fit the joining criteria for the EU either that would make us a very small weak country who has forsaken our National security for the dream of independence.

[RagnarRocks]

Well how do you work out we can't afford not to vote for independence ?
And the alleged back lash from Westminster ?
Do you have any proof of your statements or are they groundless blatant scaremongering ?

I would call the security of a small independent country important if you consider the state of the world at the moment or maybe you feel the world is a totally safe place which would of course be due to our alliances which have kept us safe :0)

[piratelassie]

And why would these important alliances not remain in place, and regards a backlash, I would regard the absence of a backlash [for instance on the Clyde] is because of the strength of the Scottish parliment. I believe the Clyde would have been sacrificed to save tory votes in the south of England which has happened in the past, had it not been for the forthcoming referendum.

Well how do you work out we can't afford not to vote for independence ?
And the alleged back lash from Westminster ?
Do you have any proof of your statements or are they groundless blatant scaremongering ?

I would call the security of a small independent country important if you consider the state of the world at the moment or maybe you feel the world is a totally safe place which would of course be due to our alliances which have kept us safe :0)

[RagnarRocks]

Well the argument for ship building is currently quite clear whilst Scotland is part of the UK,the Uk will still place defence orders with it. If Scotland goes independent then the UK govt has stated it has never placed an order for a warship outside of the Uk.
You can't demand independence and expect other countries to place their defence in your hands.
Those important alliances are alliances with the Uk and independent Scotland would be just that Independent and therefor its own master and liable to join whichever clubs it wants as long as they want Scotland.
NATO without Faslane it ain't gonna happen!
Europe it would appear as long as you tow the line to Brussels then you should get in.
It's no good wanting independence then squealing about the consequences of being independent. I've yet to see any show of power from the Scottish govt toward the Uk.

[squidge]

This decision to close Portsmouth is being talked about as if it was a purely political decision. However none of these yards are nationalised. They are run by BAE a global company whose chairman sits on David Camerons Business Advisory Group. I find it inconceivable that a company such as this would close Portsmouth and leave themselves vulnerable to losing contracts in the event of a YES vote. If BAE had any concerns they would be excluding themselves from lucrative defence contracts then they would not have closed Portsmouth. Govan is, and will remain even after a YES vote the best place to build ships. "never heed what the hoodies craw for doom". BAE systems have the ear and move in the right circles to know what they are doing to ensure the survival of their business.

[piratelassie]

Well said.

This decision to close Portsmouth is being talked about as if it was a purely political decision. However none of these yards are nationalised. They are run by BAE a global company whose chairman sits on David Camerons Business Advisory Group. I find it inconceivable that a company such as this would close Portsmouth and leave themselves vulnerable to losing contracts in the event of a YES vote. If BAE had any concerns they would be excluding themselves from lucrative defence contracts then they would not have closed Portsmouth. Govan is, and will remain even after a YES vote the best place to build ships. "never heed what the hoodies craw for doom". BAE systems have the ear and move in the right circles to know what they are doing to ensure the survival of their business.

[RagnarRocks]

You seem to miss the crux of the matterWhilst Scotland is within the United Kingdom it will recieve orders for warships and the docks stay openIf Scotland becomes independent then the orders go back to Portsmouth as the United Kingdom will not place warship orders outside their borders.Perceived conspiracies are all very well but are baseless at this point regardless of whether someone knows the Prime Minister, BAE have made a commercial decision if Scotlamd votes for independence then the decision would become political

[ducati]

You seem to miss the crux of the matterWhilst Scotland is within the United Kingdom it will recieve orders for warships and the docks stay openIf Scotland becomes independent then the orders go back to Portsmouth as the United Kingdom will not place warship orders outside their borders.Perceived conspiracies are all very well but are baseless at this point regardless of whether someone knows the Prime Minister, BAE have made a commercial decision if Scotlamd votes for independence then the decision would become political

And it shows forward thinking, that is; both BAE and the UK gov. are confident of a no vote.

[Humerous Vegetable]

I freely admit to being extremely thick, but why would any military alliance want an unaffiliated country, with expertise, training locations and other resources, sitting in the middle of them and not being a member of the club? I think Nato will drag us in, whether we want to go or not.

[orkneycadian]

Good on you Piratelassie for coming back and entering into the spirit of the debate. I have criticised you in the past for lighting the blue touchpaper at the start of a thread, then running away. But I can also withdraw that criticism when I see proper debate going on. Keep up the debate!

[squidge]

And it shows forward thinking, that is; both BAE and the UK gov. are confident of a no vote.

BAE are hard nosed profit seeking global corporation. They would absolutely not make a decision this far ahead of the referendum which would leave them building ships only in Scotland if they remotely thought that contracts would be pulled.

[ducati]

BAE are hard nosed profit seeking global corporation. They would absolutely not make a decision this far ahead of the referendum which would leave them building ships only in Scotland if they remotely thought that contracts would be pulled.

The contracts in question won't be awarded until after the referendum

[RagnarRocks]

There seems to be a lot of wishful thinking on the warships contracts but personally I thought the governments statement was quite clear.
Both Mr Hammond, and Alistair Carmichael, the Scottish Secretary, gave clear indications that a pledge that went with the announcement - to award the next multi-billion pound naval contract to Scotland - would be reversed in the event of a Yes vote.The Defence Secretary said the Government only ordered warships from UK yards, while Mr Carmichael said Portsmouth would be “well placed” in the event of the break-up of the UK.A final decision on the contract for 13 Type 26 Global Combat Ships will not be made until after the referendum, when there would still be time to reprieve shipbuilding at the Hampshire yard.
Mr Hammond qualified the announcement later when he pointed out that complex warships were always built in the UK, so that ministers had “sovereign control over the operation of those contracts”.He added: "What I have said, and I'll say again today, is I see no reason to expect that the UK would want to change from the position that we would want to build complex warships in the UK for reasons of maintaining sovereign capability in the future."Asked if Scotland would still get the Type 26 orders in the event of the break-up of the UK, Mr Carmichael said: "If Scotland is no longer part of the country, then, yes, it is difficult to see how the work would go to Scotland."“These contracts are on the Clyde because the Clyde is part of the UK. Inevitably a lot of things will change, there will be an enormous period of uncertainty, if Scotland were to vote Yes.“I think what Scotland has got tonight is a very good and compelling case for remaining part of the UK.” He went on: “If Scotland were to vote Yes, then the rest of the UK would be looking for shipyards within their jurisdiction and yes you would think Portsmouth would be well placed in that circumstance.
Nicola Sturgeon, the Deputy First Minister, said it was preposterous to suggest Scotland would lose the orders in the event of independence.
Now considering both statements it would appear that the only preposterous statement is Nicola Sturgeons on failing to understand that as an independent country the United Kingdom has no legal or moral requirement to place orders outside of its own borders.

[Phill]

BAE systems are effectively bank rolled by the UK govt via the MoD. They have plenty a risk from an Indy Scotland as do the govt, it is political game playing, simple as that.

[weezer 316]

Blimey, do you know how many tanks USSR had? If the game of brinkmanship had been lost by the west, they could and would have rolled and there was absolutely nothing the west (short of MAD) could have done about it. Paranoia means not rational to me. There was nothing irrational about the fear of and preparations for that scenario. The trouble with history is it is often so bizarre that a new generation comes along and from their new world view think nooo it can't have been like that, so we will just make up what we think it should have been like. It actually pisses off people who lived through it. Go and talk to some people instead looking at the bloody internet.

Number of tanks? I don't have an exact figure but I bet it was alot. Your point is irrelevant though as they had neither the will nor the means (their country was utterly destroyed, huge fuel shortages, food shortages etc). It was paranoia, on both sides as they were equally convinced the west would invade.