and About Time Too

[equusdriving]

You know what - reading the comments about sterilisation also make me shake my head. I would really like to think that they are "joking" and I could laugh it off with a "ho ho ho that poster is such a CARD" but I have an uneasy feeling that they actually MEAN it.

so are you really saying, as someone who champions the cases of the poor,needy, sick,unemployed etc, and constantly bemoans their treatment by society , that it is perfectly ok for someone who has never done a days work in their lives and is completely reliant on benefits, to produce children in the knowledge someone else will have to pay for them

[rob murray]

so are you really saying, as someone who champions the cases of the poor,needy, sick,unemployed etc, and constantly bemoans their treatment by society , that it is perfectly ok for someone who has never done a days work in their lives and is completely reliant on benefits, to produce children in the knowledge someone else will have to pay for them

A gross over generalisation of a complex situation that shows your compete ignorance of the subject matter at hand.

[changilass]

Are you suggesting that only the rich should be able to have kids?

If I had waited till I could afford kids I still wouldn't have any today, as it is I have 2 beautiful boys that I would give my life for.

How do you know all these people have never worked a day in their lives and have no intention of ever doing so?

Those kids may be the ones paying for your pension in years to come.

[equusdriving]

A gross over generalisation of a complex situation that shows your compete ignorance of the subject matter at hand.

no just a simple question, what part didnt you understand?

[equusdriving]

Are you suggesting that only the rich should be able to have kids?

no I am suggesting that only those who can afford them should have them

How do you know all these people have never worked a day in their lives and have no intention of ever doing so?

Because those are the only ones I refered too

Those kids may be the ones paying for your pension in years to come

. or they just as equally may be the ones who are being kept for the rest of their life by taxpayers

[changilass]

Do you ever have any positive thoughts?

[squidge]

Equus your question pre supposes that people's lives remain the same the whole way through. People do move into work, they find work even when they have been out of work for years or if they have never worked. Attitudes, aptitudes, abilities, motivation, education, all these change throughout our lives and believe it or not that is the case for everyone. No one is the same person at 40 that they were at 18.

Your sterilization suggestion ( i still think you must be joking) is ludicrous because it means you are deciding that people will never work at a relatively young age. I assume this would need to be decided at puberty. It also suggests that people can only be judged worthy if they have a paid job. There are hundreds of thousands of people who volunteer who are not working for a whole range of reasons. There will be people who will never work because of disability - are they to be sterilised too?

What about the actual work of bringing up a family? The choice to be a stay at home mum is rapidly being seen as a way of opting out. It has never been valued as it should and today the government prevents single parents from making that choice. Single people with children over 5 MUST claim JSA and be available for work never mind the needs of their family.

So am I saying it is ok for unemployed people, people claiming benefits, people without paid employment, the sick, disabled and others to have children... Yes I am. It might not be my choice, it might not be what you would choose but should they be prevented by being sterilised? Absolutely not.

Again Equus i suggest you look outside your narrow viewpoint and see what you find. When you have done that then come back and let us know what you saw. If you dont know where to start then Im sure one or two of us would help.

[equusdriving]

Equus your question pre supposes that people's lives remain the same the whole way through. People do move into work, they find work even when they have been out of work for years or if they have never worked. Attitudes, aptitudes, abilities, motivation, education, all these change throughout our lives and believe it or not that is the case for everyone. No one is the same person at 40 that they were at 18.

exactly,when and if their life changes and they can afford to support themselves and their children, should be when they think about having them

Your sterilization suggestion ( i still think you must be joking)

I was speaking metaphoricly as "sterilization" had been mentioned

I ask you again "is it ok for someone who has never done a days work in their lives and is completely reliant on benefits, to produce children in the knowledge someone else will have to pay for them"

[equusdriving]

Do you ever have any positive thoughts?

yes frequently but only ever about positive things

[squidge]

exactly,when and if their life changes and they can afford to support themselves and their children, should be when they think about having them
I was speaking metaphoricly as "sterilization" had been mentioned

Changi asked a question and this was your answer

or even better,compulsory sterilization of those who can't afford to keep themselves let alone a bunch of kids!

So forgive me if I failed to see the metaphorical nature of this comment - I am glad you clarified that for me - I am delighted that you did not mean it.

I ask you again "is it ok for someone who has never done a days work in their lives and is completely reliant on benefits, to produce children in the knowledge someone else will have to pay for them"

Yes

The answer has to be yes because I know that people who have never done a days work in their lives may do a valuable job in the rest of their lives. Either paid or unpaid and it is not right for us to make a judgement that they are not worthy of having a family because they have not worked so far.

Lets put some meat on the bones of this......

One of my friends at school left at 18 with A levels and did not get a job and did not go to college. She signed on and messed about for a while. she couldnt be bothered with work. She didnt present well and she was not prepared to take risks. She then went on a government training programme and lasted about six weeks before jacking it in because they were treating her in a way that we would describe today as bullying. She lost her benefit for a while then continued to claim benefit. She met a lad and got pregnant and at 21 she had a wee boy. She lived at home with her mum and dad and she claimed income support and she suffered with PND - the boy left her. A couple of years later her mum died very suddenly and at the age of 54 from very aggressive cancer. My friend was devastated and so was her dad - she looked after her dad - no special benefits for this because Dad wasnt Ill in a way that qualified him for benefits at that time he was grieving. She started a relationship with a man who was very controlling and had another baby at around 27. She still hadnt ever had a paid job. She got a house from the council and the man battered her one night and she threw him out. She then suffered with Depression and Agoraphobia and it took several years to get over this during which time her dad died. When her daughter started P5 she started a university course in Manchester and despite her health and her lack of transport she completed the course and and did a post graduate teaching certificate. Finishing this when she was around 38ish. She did supply teaching and then got a part time permanent teaching job. She now specialises in teaching children with additional support needs on a full time basis. She is nearly 50 and will do this until she retires which is likely to be around 66.

Should she not have had children? Would you have sterilised her at 15? or 18? or when she had been out of work for 3 years? People change - With the right help and support they can return to work or find a job even if they havent had one before. Who are you to judge and say people like this lassie arent fit or shouldnt be allowed to produce children? You might very well have thought that this lassie would never work but look she did. She was supported to bring up her family and change her life by the benefit system and now she works and contributes. Why would you want to prevent that happening?

[equusdriving]

Who are you to judge and say people like this lassie arent fit or shouldnt be allowed to produce children?

remember that thing you are constantly whining that you are entitled to "Your opinion" well that is mine and I am just as entitled to it as you are yours, Im glad you think that your friend not beginning proper work until she was nearly 50 a great success, as its only nearly 30 years after most people her age had

[squidge]

remember that thing you are constantly whining that you are entitled to "Your opinion" well that is mine and I am just as entitled to it as you are yours, Im glad you think that your friend not beginning proper work until she was nearly 50 a great success, as its only nearly 30 years after most people her age had

She has been working for over 10 years Equus since she was 38. You didnt answer the question.... Would you have stopped her from having her children, would you have sterilised her? Would you tell her that her life has been wasted and useless or that she was a skived, scrounger and lazy good for nothing who can NEVER make up for her poor choices in your eyes. Or would you congratulate her on her happy healthy well educated children, on overcoming her difficulties and finding her place in life and society and see her as an example of what can be done with the righ help and support? Hmmm let me guess.....

[equusdriving]

She has been working for over 10 years Equus since she was 38. You didnt answer the question.... Would you have stopped her from having her children,

yes if she couldn't afford to look after them and herself

would you have sterilised her?

and you claim to act grown up

Would you tell her that her life has been wasted and useless or that she was a skived, scrounger and lazy good for nothing who can NEVER make up for her poor choices in your eyes

when and where have I said or implied such rubbish

[squidge]

yes if she couldn't afford to look after them and herself

How?

and where have I said or implied such rubbish

Ok maybe you havent... It was a question. You dont like it lets try a different tack. what would you have "done" with or to my friend to change things.

[equusdriving]

How?

by making people realize that you have to pay your way and not rely on others to foot the bill

Ok maybe you havent

no maybe about it, as you well know

[squidge]

by making people realize that you have to pay your way and not rely on others to foot the bill

how?

no maybe about it, as you well know

I think you have at least inferred it but I am happy to let you off. So... What would you have dobe with or to my friend to change things?

[equusdriving]

how?

right one more time, by not rewarding people for having kids they cant pay for themselves

I think you have at least inferred it but I am happy to let you off

are you on drugs.......because if not I think you should be.

So... What would you have dobe with or to my friend to change things?

sorry not my concern

[squidge]

This is an address to the Conservative Party by a blogger who has caught people's imagination with her blog detailing food she manages to make whilst living on benefits. She is a single mother and a great writer Its an entertaining read across a variety of issues. She was invited to address I think fringe meetings at the Tory Party Conference this week.

Here is the link http://agirlcalledjack.com/2013/10/0...-jack-monroe/I

know some of you dont like following external links so here are a few pertinent extracts. After having to resign from her job because of childcare impossibilities.

"I felt a surging pride, updating my CV, that I could type “Essex County Fire and Rescue Service” into my recent work history. A well-respected, uniformed organisation. Hundreds of people had applied for my job back then, and I got it. I thought I was going to be okay.But the novelty wore off quite quickly. After you’ve typed “Essex County Fire and Rescue Service” into a few hundred online job applications, you no longer feel proud of the uniform you once wore, but resentful that the name of the organisation is so bloody long."

On foodbanks

". As much as the likes of Lord Freud and Edwina Currie would have you believe that ‘anyone’ can turn up to a food bank to top up the Ocado delivery with a couple of tins of dented tomatoes and some slightly black bananas, the reality is very different. The reality is that you need to be identified as being in need, by a social worker, a health visitor, a child care provider, your doctor. Someone needs to recognise that without their intervention, your family are going to go hungry. They direct you to a food bank for help. A lot of people don’t go, because of the shame and the stigma attached to queuing up outside a community centre to beg for food. Because I’ll tell you now, even after months of attending, it feels like begging. No matter how kind the volunteers, how discreet the carrier bags, you have to look someone in the face who knows that you are desperate and not coping and that your life is falling apart."

On poverty

"When I say ‘poverty’, you probably conjure up images of children far away, of TV appeals and ruthless dictators. But this, this is a country riddled with poverty. Turning off the heating and missing days of meals is not cosy frugality. Try it. Turn off the fridge because it’s empty anyway. Sell anything you can see lying around that you might get more than a quid for. Walk everywhere in the same pair of shoes in the pouring rain, with a soaking wet and sobbing child trailing along behind you, into every shop and pub in unreasonable walking distance and ask if they have any job vacancies. Try not to go red as the person behind the counter appraises your dirty jeans and tatty jumper and tells you that there’s nothing. “Not for you”, you add in your head. Trudge home. Pour some tinned tomatoes over dome 39p pasta and try not to hurl it at the wall as your son tells you he doesn’t want it. “I want something else Mummy,” but there isn’t anything else. But aren’t we just supposed to be grateful for our little scraps of tax payers money, and keep calm and carry on? Because that can’t possibly be poverty, not in the sixth richest country in the world with the benevolence of the welfare state. That’s austerity, isn’t it?"

There is more on this lassies blog if you are interested enough to search.

[equusdriving]

This is an address to the Conservative Party by a blogger who has caught people's imagination with her blog detailing food she manages to make whilst living on benefits. She is a single mother and a great writer Its an entertaining read across a variety of issues. She was invited to address I think fringe meetings at the Tory Party Conference this week.

Here is the link http://agirlcalledjack.com/2013/10/0...-jack-monroe/I

know some of you dont like following external links so here are a few pertinent extracts. After having to resign from her job because of childcare impossibilities.

"I felt a surging pride, updating my CV, that I could type “Essex County Fire and Rescue Service” into my recent work history. A well-respected, uniformed organisation. Hundreds of people had applied for my job back then, and I got it. I thought I was going to be okay.But the novelty wore off quite quickly. After you’ve typed “Essex County Fire and Rescue Service” into a few hundred online job applications, you no longer feel proud of the uniform you once wore, but resentful that the name of the organisation is so bloody long."

On foodbanks

". As much as the likes of Lord Freud and Edwina Currie would have you believe that ‘anyone’ can turn up to a food bank to top up the Ocado delivery with a couple of tins of dented tomatoes and some slightly black bananas, the reality is very different. The reality is that you need to be identified as being in need, by a social worker, a health visitor, a child care provider, your doctor. Someone needs to recognise that without their intervention, your family are going to go hungry. They direct you to a food bank for help. A lot of people don’t go, because of the shame and the stigma attached to queuing up outside a community centre to beg for food. Because I’ll tell you now, even after months of attending, it feels like begging. No matter how kind the volunteers, how discreet the carrier bags, you have to look someone in the face who knows that you are desperate and not coping and that your life is falling apart."

On poverty

"When I say ‘poverty’, you probably conjure up images of children far away, of TV appeals and ruthless dictators. But this, this is a country riddled with poverty. Turning off the heating and missing days of meals is not cosy frugality. Try it. Turn off the fridge because it’s empty anyway. Sell anything you can see lying around that you might get more than a quid for. Walk everywhere in the same pair of shoes in the pouring rain, with a soaking wet and sobbing child trailing along behind you, into every shop and pub in unreasonable walking distance and ask if they have any job vacancies. Try not to go red as the person behind the counter appraises your dirty jeans and tatty jumper and tells you that there’s nothing. “Not for you”, you add in your head. Trudge home. Pour some tinned tomatoes over dome 39p pasta and try not to hurl it at the wall as your son tells you he doesn’t want it. “I want something else Mummy,” but there isn’t anything else. But aren’t we just supposed to be grateful for our little scraps of tax payers money, and keep calm and carry on? Because that can’t possibly be poverty, not in the sixth richest country in the world with the benevolence of the welfare state. That’s austerity, isn’t it?"

There is more on this lassies blog if you are interested enough to search.

very interesting , im sure but what has this got to do with this thread ?

[rob murray]

no just a simple question, what part didnt you understand?

I didnt understand a word or perhaps my eyes deceived me, after re reading your question...yep doesn't make any sense to me