Nor Scot

[squidge]

So all over the place that this is yesterdays Herald website
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politi...-vote.22029825

and this appeared short ago on todays Herald website. Better late than never

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/snp-poll-puts-yes-campaign-ahead.1378115779

[Oddquine]

so just because we could survive after Independence , is not a valid reason to vote for Independence where is any proof that we would be better off or at least no worse off after Independence

So just because we could survive if we stay in the Union, is not a valid reason to vote "No" to Independence. Where is any proof we would be better off or at least no worse off staying in the Union? (Particularly as all the cuts to pay back the Union's ongoing profligate spending appears to be going to continue until well after the next UK General Election)

[equusdriving]

So just because we could survive if we stay in the Union, is not a valid reason to vote "No" to Independence. Where is any proof we would be better off or at least no worse off staying in the Union? (Particularly as all the cuts to pay back the Union's ongoing profligate spending appears to be going to continue until well after the next UK General Election)

I will try and explain it slowly and simply for you

if for instance the Co-op want me to change from shopping at Tesco's and use them instead, do I have to prove to and convince them that Tesco's is better? No of course I don't, they are the ones wanting change so the onus is on them to do the convincing to get the change they want, like wise it is the pro-independence supporters who want the change and therefore need to do the convincing

[ducati]

So just because we could survive if we stay in the Union, is not a valid reason to vote "No" to Independence. Where is any proof we would be better off or at least no worse off staying in the Union? (Particularly as all the cuts to pay back the Union's ongoing profligate spending appears to be going to continue until well after the next UK General Election)

Pointless arguing the same point.

I don't care what is said by who. My logic tells me the 5 million relatively low earners, and an almost complete lack of home based big business contributers, cannot maintain services never mind improve them. (That is the object isn't it? Better lives for everyone?)

[sam09]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_of_Scotland‎

Have a look here ducati.

Can you tell me what it would do to the rest of the U.K`s (and N.Irelands) Financial standing if Scotland was to get independence?

[Big Gaz]

It's all good and well that Eck the Hutt is arguing for a solo Scotland and is gibbering all the pros about it but the issue i am truly wondering about is why on earth is there so much scaremongering from down south? It's well known that they really don't want us Scots to vote for a split and cite all manner of reasons against every pro from Eck but is it me or does anyone else seem to think that they are hiding the true reason why they don't want a split for fear of actually causing a split.

[ducati]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_of_Scotland‎

Have a look here ducati.

Can you tell me what it would do to the rest of the U.K`s (and N.Irelands) Financial standing if Scotland was to get independence?

I'm very familier with the list (which is years out of date BTW) You seem to be trying to prove my point, in as much as the majority of these business listed are not owned in Scotland. What that would do to the finances of the rest of the UK? I don't know. Is that your reason for wanting independence, to damage the rest of the UK? Or just England? I'm sure they would get over it.

[Oddquine]

It's all good and well that Eck the Hutt is arguing for a solo Scotland and is gibbering all the pros about it but the issue i am truly wondering about is why on earth is there so much scaremongering from down south? It's well known that they really don't want us Scots to vote for a split and cite all manner of reasons against every pro from Eck but is it me or does anyone else seem to think that they are hiding the true reason why they don't want a split for fear of actually causing a split.

They know that there is a lot less chance of UK finances ever managing to support the UK in the manner to which London and the South has become accustomed without the input of the taxes from Scottish resources (like oil), companies (like whisky) and population?

[ducati]

They know that there is a lot less chance of UK finances ever managing to support the UK in the manner to which London and the South has become accustomed without the input of the taxes from Scottish resources (like oil), companies (like whisky) and population?

I seriously doubt it, I don't know how much tax the likes of Pernod and Diagio pay to the UK but I'll bet it is not as much as you think. Which leaves Oil again.

And I'll bet you could lose the total personal Income Tax paid in Scotland in a small London borough.

[Rheghead]

I find it confusing when the SNP compare Norway with what Scotland could be like yet on the next breath they claim Scotland will join the EU. This political duality serves nobody except for the SNP.

[sam09]

I'm very familier with the list (which is years out of date BTW) You seem to be trying to prove my point, in as much as the majority of these business listed are not owned in Scotland. What that would do to the finances of the rest of the UK? I don't know. Is that your reason for wanting independence, to damage the rest of the UK? Or just England? I'm sure they would get over it.

You do not know ducati. Then what is your argument for staying with the rest of the U.K. (and N.Ireland)?

I certainley do not want to damage England or any other region of the UK or N.Ireland. I would love to see a Scotland with self rule, free to make our own future mistakes and successes and all. At least they would be the choice of the people of Scotland to make.

We had no vote in the other Treaty (European) or the Treaty between Scotland and England. This time we, The people of Scotland can shape our own destiny.

By the way, what will Cameron do if he gets a vote to leave the E.U?

[ducati]

You do not know ducati. Then what is your argument for staying with the rest of the U.K. (and N.Ireland)?

I certainley do not want to damage England or any other region of the UK or N.Ireland. I would love to see a Scotland with self rule, free to make our own future mistakes and successes and all. At least they would be the choice of the people of Scotland to make.

We had no vote in the other Treaty (European) or the Treaty between Scotland and England. This time we, The people of Scotland can shape our own destiny.

By the way, what will Cameron do if he gets a vote to leave the E.U?

I don't understand the question. I said I don't know what Independence would do to the rest of the UK. It is what it will do to Scotland that is my (and should be your) concern.

Ditto the E.U.

ooh missed a question. I'm not trying to persuade anyone with any argument. All I do is, if I see nonsense or lies I question them.

[squidge]

So Ducati, if scotland has nothing, is nothing and pays nothing in taxes how come Scotland's GDP per capita is 99% of the rest of the UK without oil? How come Scotland's financial sector is considered the third most important in the country outside london and the South East? How come Scotland's food and drink industry is worth over £5.3 billion? How come The Scotland that you suggest doesnt pay much in the way of taxes contributes more per head to the treasury than we get back through the Block Grant? How come Scotland's GVA is third behind only london and the south east. This is all without oil? So if Scotland is not quite as poor, the cupboards not so bare as you suggest can you explain to me why you think Scotland will crash and burn after independence.

Especially when after Independence we would have an opportunity to change the tax system, to close loopholes, to channel spending in the way that meets the priorities of Scotland? See i dont get how yours and Secrets vision of a broken skint scotland matches up with the figures?

[ducati]

So Ducati, if scotland has nothing, is nothing and pays nothing in taxes how come Scotland's GDP per capita is 99% of the rest of the UK without oil? How come Scotland's financial sector is considered the third most important in the country outside london and the South East? How come Scotland's food and drink industry is worth over £5.3 billion? How come The Scotland that you suggest doesnt pay much in the way of taxes contributes more per head to the treasury than we get back through the Block Grant? How come Scotland's GVA is third behind only london and the south east. This is all without oil? So if Scotland is so poor, the cupboards so bare as you suggest how do you explain how Scotland will crash and burn after independence?

Especially when after Independence we would have an opportunity to change the tax system, to close loopholes, to channel spending in the way that meets the priorities of Scotland? See i dont get how yours and Secrets vision of a broken skint scotland matches up with the figures?

Like I said, logic tells me there is something wrong with either the figures themselves, or the way they are presented. It just doesn't stack up, that a population similar to a large town, can fund the infrastructure and services needed by a sovereign state in the modern world. I've mentioned before about Financial services, with one notable exception, Edinburgh hosts regional offices of London based or foreign business.

What changes to the tax system do you envisage? What loop holes? Who in Scotland isn't paying their dues? If you try to gouge the foreign companies they will leave won't they?

You keep quoting pro-rata and per capita figures. That is kind of the point isn't it?

Or lets analyse one example. The food and drink industry is worth 5.3 billion. Great! How much goes into (or would) the Scottish treasury coffers for the benefit of the people of Scotland? Don't forget to include the income tax from the many hundreds of people working in this industry for minimum wage (but claiming some or all of it back in working tax credits, housing benefit etc).

[Oddquine]

I'm very familier with the list (which is years out of date BTW) You seem to be trying to prove my point, in as much as the majority of these business listed are not owned in Scotland. What that would do to the finances of the rest of the UK? I don't know. Is that your reason for wanting independence, to damage the rest of the UK? Or just England? I'm sure they would get over it.

We live in a global economy.....or hadn't you noticed, ducati? Given it has escalated since Thatcher and Reagan, I'd be surprised if you hadn't, tbh. There are hunners of companies with a presence in countries outside the one in which the parent company is registered.....and they seem to manage. Companies don't really care where they make their profits just as long as they make them...because if that wasn't the case, the prospect of Independence for Scotland should have scared off investors, as forecast by the Bitter Together crowd as soon as the referendum was announced.....but it has not.

What it would do to the finances of the rUK... it would likely reduce some of their income, depending on how Scotland worked it (particularly re the oil income which shores the UK up)...but let's be honest, it won't reduce it any more than the current UK taxation set-up which appears to allow big business to avoid taxes if they so choose (as most of them do)...and just maybe make the rUK rethink their taxation policy versus their own fixation on possible jobs on retiring from/being dumped from Westminster.

Nobody for independence wants to damage the rUK..that would be immensely counter-productive for Scotland...and we aren't as stupid as Unionists would have you believe...though I do think that you are a shade naive if you separate England from NI and Wales regarding consequences, given all the taxes they produce goes into the Westminster pot. But everybody for Scottish Independence wants to stop the Union damaging our country, our lives and our childrens' futures....and Independence is the only way left for us to go.

We have tried fairly regularly since 1707 to change what an English Parliament considered democracy, to no avail......heck we have had, even nowadays, MPs and ministers agreeing with the current UK (which incidentally is only about 85 years old) Government report that said Scotland had been “extinguished” by the 1707 Act of Union....which echoes the comment by the Speaker of the House of Commons in 1708 "We have catch'd Scotland and would keep her fast,"

We don't accept that!

[ducati]

We live in a global economy.....or hadn't you noticed, ducati? Given it has escalated since Thatcher and Reagan, I'd be surprised if you hadn't, tbh. There are hunners of companies with a presence in countries outside the one in which the parent company is registered.....and they seem to manage. Companies don't really care where they make their profits just as long as they make them...because if that wasn't the case, the prospect of Independence for Scotland should have scared off investors, as forecast by the Bitter Together crowd as soon as the referendum was announced.....but it has not.

What it would do to the finances of the rUK... it would likely reduce some of their income, depending on how Scotland worked it (particularly re the oil income which shores the UK up)...but let's be honest, it won't reduce it any more than the current UK taxation set-up which appears to allow big business to avoid taxes if they so choose (as most of them do)...and just maybe make the rUK rethink their taxation policy versus their own fixation on possible jobs on retiring from/being dumped from Westminster.

Nobody for independence wants to damage the rUK..that would be immensely counter-productive for Scotland...and we aren't as stupid as Unionists would have you believe...though I do think that you are a shade naive if you separate England from NI and Wales regarding consequences, given all the taxes they produce goes into the Westminster pot. But everybody for Scottish Independence wants to stop the Union damaging our country, our lives and our childrens' futures....and Independence is the only way left for us to go.

We have tried fairly regularly since 1707 to change what an English Parliament considered democracy, to no avail......heck we have had, even nowadays, MPs and ministers agreeing with the current UK (which incidentally is only about 85 years old) Government report that said Scotland had been “extinguished” by the 1707 Act of Union....which echoes the comment by the Speaker of the House of Commons in 1708 "We have catch'd Scotland and would keep her fast,"

We don't accept that!

We do indeed live in a global economy. The trick though, is to be the country whose business is taking over the world. Not the ones being taken over.

[squidge]

Like I said, logic tells me there is something wrong with either the figures themselves, or the way they are presented. It just doesn't stack up, that a population similar to a large town, can fund the infrastructure and services needed by a sovereign state in the modern world. I've mentioned before about Financial services, with one notable exception, Edinburgh hosts regional offices of London based or foreign business.

Thats it? So no contradicting evidence? No research? just your logic. Are you therefore saying that these figures are lies? That the UK government figures are fabricated and not true? These are UK provided figures - not cooked up by the SNP not dreamed up by a lying nat in her living room on a Sunday morning - but the figures which have meant that all the politicians I quoted above and many others have stopped saying Scotland is too poor to be a success as an Independent Country. Your logic tells you they are wrong. It seems to me that your mistake is to compare Scotland and its people and its economy to a large town. Scotland is not a large town. It is a country - a nation in its own right and Independent it will have the powers needed to grow and develop the economy that it has.

Lets look. The countries which have a similar population to Scotland in Europe include Finland, Denmark, Norway. These countries are prosperous and doing very nicely - no one would compare Norway or Denmark to a large town. If all you see when you look at Scotland is a "large town" then it explains why you fail to see the opportunities that Independence can bring.

What changes to the tax system do you envisage? What loop holes? Who in Scotland isn't paying their dues? If you try to gouge the foreign companies they will leave won't they?

I dont know Ducati - I talked about opportunity - to raise and spend money, to do what needs to be done to make Scotland a more prosperous country. And by prosperous I mean better off every way - financially and socially. The point is only in an Independent Scotland will we be able to do these things if they need doing and if they benefit Scotland.

You keep quoting pro-rata and per capita figures. That is kind of the point isn't it?

Thats how you measure and compare GDP

Or lets analyse one example. The food and drink industry is worth 5.3 billion. Great! How much goes into (or would) the Scottish treasury coffers for the benefit of the people of Scotland? Don't forget to include the income tax from the many hundreds of people working in this industry for minimum wage (but claiming some or all of it back in working tax credits, housing benefit etc).

Yes lets and there is a simple answer Ducati - None of it and all of it. None of it because today it goes to the UK treasury where it contributes to spending on Trident, High Speed rail links, London sewers and some of it comes back in the Block Grant. After Independence? Well - All of it! It would all go into the Scottish treasury as part of the income of Scotland to be spent on whatever we instruct our government to spend it on.

And if that last sentence was a suggestion that Scotland cant afford the welfare bill - well you are wrong about that as well!

[equusdriving]

It would all go into the Scottish treasury as part of the income of Scotland to be spent on whatever we instruct our government to spend it on.

and now tell us the one about the three bears

[ducati]

Thats it? So no contradicting evidence? No research? just your logic. Are you therefore saying that these figures are lies? That the UK government figures are fabricated and not true? These are UK provided figures - not cooked up by the SNP not dreamed up by a lying nat in her living room on a Sunday morning - but the figures which have meant that all the politicians I quoted above and many others have stopped saying Scotland is too poor to be a success as an Independent Country. Your logic tells you they are wrong. It seems to me that your mistake is to compare Scotland and its people and its economy to a large town. Scotland is not a large town. It is a country - a nation in its own right and Independent it will have the powers needed to grow and develop the economy that it has.

Lets look. The countries which have a similar population to Scotland in Europe include Finland, Denmark, Norway. These countries are prosperous and doing very nicely - no one would compare Norway or Denmark to a large town. If all you see when you look at Scotland is a "large town" then it explains why you fail to see the opportunities that Independence can bring.



I dont know Ducati - I talked about opportunity - to raise and spend money, to do what needs to be done to make Scotland a more prosperous country. And by prosperous I mean better off every way - financially and socially. The point is only in an Independent Scotland will we be able to do these things if they need doing and if they benefit Scotland.

Thats how you measure and compare GDP




Yes lets and there is a simple answer Ducati - None of it and all of it. None of it because today it goes to the UK treasury where it contributes to spending on Trident, High Speed rail links, London sewers and some of it comes back in the Block Grant. After Independence? Well - All of it! It would all go into the Scottish treasury as part of the income of Scotland to be spent on whatever we instruct our government to spend it on.

And if that last sentence was a suggestion that Scotland cant afford the welfare bill - well you are wrong about that as well!

5.3 billion eh? Blimey we'll all be rich. That's over a grand each. However, it would be more likely about 3% of that once you take into account allowances against this that and the other thing. This is a good example though of figures bandied about that sound great and mean little.

Now having been pressed I've given my opinion on much more than I like so on yer go.

[squidge]

One example Ducati and there are plenty more.

Im glad you shared your opinion Ducati - thank you. Its been interesting.