Banned
Yes but... So doing my own research and using existing knowledge of the dynamic of employment in Scotland.Originally Posted by Humerous Vegetable
The biggest employer is (probably) the NHS., numbers two to twenty are (probably) local authorities. I doubt if a private sector employer makes it into the top 30. So, employers 1 to 30 are paid for by the people working for employers (getting ever smaller) 31 to whatever. So you tell me, how can that be sustainable?
BTW if you look up Scottish Insider 500 you will find there are some very small businesss in the top 500 Scottish private companies. (and an awful lot of English ones).
Last edited by ducati; 29-Aug-13 at 16:20. Reason: Extra info
.Orger
The tax rate over in Norway is a minimum of 28% and their VAT system (sales tax) is variable between 14-28% too! Compare that to the meagre tax rates set by the UK govt!. The reason that the Norwegian tax rate is so high is directly because of the cost of their welfare system.....and people think the UK welfare system is screwed. For the size of Norway and its population, their govt raises over 1trn NOK (approx £110,000,000,000) in taxation income
1K.Orger
The UK welfare system is still being screwed up more & more by this Tory Government...
The reason that the Norwegian welfare system costs so much is because in general they care about people's welfare in comparison to the UK "I'm all right Jack, keep your hands off my stack" attitude.
“We're trapped in the belly of this horrible machine....
And the machine is bleeding to death."
.Orger
We still have 20+ years of decent oil production in the North sea, and that's not accounting for what we haven't been able to get to yet, as technological advances in drilling continue to progress who knows what may be found in years to come.
There also seems to be plenty people getting jobs in the North sea at moment which was not the case ten years ago when i heard of people being off shore for many years being paid off and struggling to find another job in the oil industry.
Why do so many only mention us Scots of being robbed by England of our oil when it comes to voting for independence?
You would think it was the only industry to exist, there are many things to consider when it comes to independence, some of them are no doubt beneficial but many are not.
It just worries me that many people shout about independence and base it on nothing more than anti-English thoughts passed down from parents etc and can't tell you any real beneficial reason based on policies.
Some of us Scots think we and the English are like chalk and cheese, well in my experience we are very similar indeed.
1K.Orger
The secessionists will never get it ducati...
They don't even realise that the current high investment in the North Sea is correlated with the difficulty in extracting the dwindling resources of black stuff! Ugly Fat Eck doesn't worry about technicalities such as dwindling resources and the consequent increasing difficulty of extraction - he just lies about everything, and the fools that blindly follow him lap it all up.
.Orger
Oh, for God's sake....the NHS is the largest employer for all countries in the UK. Most UK firms and affiliates appear to be owned by companies based overseas, including most of the energy suppliers, British Rail, Rolls Royce; etc etc etc.....
If the economy of the country you are investing in is sound, you might invest or, you might not. You are missing the point here. Currently we here in Scotland are being dragged along on the coat tails of the UK government's whims and fancies. The referendum will give us the chance to vote for whatever party meets the needs of the majority of the Scottish electorate, Labour, Tory, LibDem Monster Raving Looney....at least we will have the choice in Scotland, for the first time, of choosing a national government voted for by Scots, accountable to Scots and representative of the majority of Scots.
1K.Orger
But, can you be sure that will happen?
The UK govt' is not representative of English or Welsh or NI voters either. The current incumbents of govt' office were not voted for by the UK in any sense.
Salmond & the SNP are centralising everything to focus on the 'central' belt, playing he numbers game. And with any govt' (MP's, MSP's) they will do the bidding of whoever lines their pockets.
All I see is a transfer of corruption from Westminster to Holyrood, now that may be a bonus.
But I suspect, and my fear is, that the populace living North of Perth, bar Aberdeen(for now), will be worse off. I see a replication, albeit in smaller form, of the current UK. The Southwest is the power base, decision base and control base. Anything North of Oxford can get to feck.
Add to this the fact that 'Indy' Scotland will also be run from Brussels, and Salmond is still tying a lot of interests to the rUK, this notion that a independent Scotland will have some fantastic 'democratic' leadership that will somehow be accountable to ALL Scot's and make everything rosey & bonnie is, I fear, fantasy.
Last edited by Phill; 30-Aug-13 at 12:52. Reason: safari
Banned
That will be very nice, until we realise (or some of us do) that there is way more money going out than coming in and we all starve.
.Orger
no you need to borrow a pair of the pro-independence rose tinted specs, and you will see the wonderful Independent future, where everything is warm and fluffy
Last edited by equusdriving; 30-Aug-13 at 13:47.
.Orger
Phill, of course I can't be sure that will happen, in the same way that you cannot be sure it won't. Are we psychic? The economy after independence will fail or flourish depending on the talents and skills of the finance secretary/chancellor of whatever party is elected.
As for corruption in MPs and MSPs - well it appears to part of the job description unfortunately.
.Orger
What is wrong with the anti brigade, are you afraid independence will work?
Banned
There is nothing wrong with the anti brigade. The question is work for who? It certainly won't work for me so that is what I would base my vote on. Everyone has to make their own decision.
1K.Orger
There is absolutely no doubt that a seceded Scotland would be a disaster. Economic failure would be inevitable.
I was speaking today to one of Scotland's most vociferous business leaders. They will head south within a year if secession is at all likely.
1K.Orger
Thats ok Secrets .... You can hitch a ride!
Again for those who are interested have a look at the paper produced recently Scotland's Economy- the case for Independence http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/05/4084 as a starting point. Then have a look for Secret's business leader and see what you find. There are plenty of business people happy to stay. Have a look at what the Westminster government says about oil when they are not talking about Independence and you will find a positive, upbeat and optimistic approach to the industry. Check out the inward investment record and focus of the Scottish Government. Despite being warned by Alistair darling, that the referendum and independence will put off businesses investing in Scotland, inward investment continues to rise. No sign of businesses being put off then.
Ducati talked about lies earlier. It could be said that Secrets in symmetry lies when he says "economic failure would be inevitable". Secrets never offers any evidence or any signposts to evidence to support his pronouncements. Scotland is in a good position to have a healthy economy.
Phil says that the idea that the Government of an Independent Scotland being more accountable to the Scottish Electorate is fantasy. He is mistaken. It will be more accountable for what it does than the westminster government because we will be able to vote it out of office. Currently the votes cast in Scotland make utterly no difference to the result of uk wide elections. In every one of the general elections since WW2, the result would have the same regardless of Scotland's votes. Scottish voters cannot vote out the current government, our voice makes no difference in the clamour that is UK politics. In an Independent Scotland we will have the government that the Scottish Electorate votes for every time and perhaps more importantly we wont have a government that we dont elect forced upon us.
That isnt fantasy it is FACT.
Note - as Ducati points out below - I should have said in 15 out of the 18 General Elections since WW2 the votes in Scotland have made no difference to the results of the General Election
Last edited by squidge; 31-Aug-13 at 10:19.
Banned
The bit about Scots votes don't count is utter rubbish and a deliberate lie (to add). If you assume that Scots all vote one way then you would have a case. Total bull as usual.
1K.Orger
Not a lie Ducati. although I was wrong. There have been three elections since the war where The Scottish vote influenced the outcome of the General Election. I had forgotten the hung parliaments. One was 1964. one 1974 and 2010. My apologies. So I should have said in 15 out of the 18 general elections since WW2, voters in Scotland made no difference to the outcome of a general election. The change they were able to make in 64, 74 and 2010 were from a majority to a hung parliament. Which meant that we STILL did not change who was in power but simply managed to dilute it a wee bit - the 1964 government lasted 18 months I think and the 1974 needed the Lib-Lab pact. It is precisely because Scots voters do not all vote the same way which makes the Scottish result immaterial in most elections to the overall outcome. And although 30 years ago Scottish MPs in Westminster number 70 odd today there are 52 which reduces the influence of the Scottish vote still further. The Scottish vote has NEVER turned a conservative government into a labour one or vice versa.
You can see here
1945 Labour govt (Attlee)
————————————
Labour majority: 146
Labour majority without any Scottish MPs in Parliament: 143
NO CHANGE
1950 Labour govt (Attlee)
————————————
Labour majority: 5
Without Scottish MPs: 2
NO CHANGE
1951 Conservative govt (Churchill/Eden)
——————————————————–
Conservative majority: 17
Without Scottish MPs: 16
NO CHANGE
1955 Conservative govt (Eden/Macmillan)
——————————————————–
Conservative majority: 60
Without Scottish MPs: 61
NO CHANGE
1959 Conservative govt (Macmillan/Douglas-Home)
————————————————————————
Conservative majority: 100
Without Scottish MPs: 109
NO CHANGE
1964 Labour govt (Wilson)
————————————-
Labour majority: 4
Without Scottish MPs: -9
CHANGE: LABOUR MAJORITY TO HUNG PARLIAMENT
1966 Labour govt (Wilson)
————————————-
Labour majority: 98
Without Scottish MPs: 77
NO CHANGE
1970 Conservative govt (Heath)
——————————————–
Conservative majority: 30
Without Scottish MPs: 55
NO CHANGE
1974 Minority Labour govt (Wilson)
————————————————-
Labour majority: -33
Without Scottish MPs: -50
NO CHANGE
1974b Labour govt (Wilson/Callaghan)
—————————————————–
Labour majority: 3
Without Scottish MPs: -8
CHANGE: LABOUR MAJORITY TO HUNG PARLIAMENT
1979 Conservative govt (Thatcher)
————————————————-
Conservative majority: 43
Without Scottish MPs: 70
NO CHANGE
1983 Conservative govt (Thatcher)
————————————————-
Conservative majority: 144
Without Scottish MPs: 174
NO CHANGE
1987 Conservative govt (Thatcher/Major)
——————————————————-
Conservative majority: 102
Without Scottish MPs: 154
NO CHANGE
1992 Conservative govt (Major)
———————————————
Conservative majority: 21
Without Scottish MPs: 71
NO CHANGE
1997 Labour govt (Blair)
———————————–
Labour majority: 179
Without Scottish MPs: 139
NO CHANGE
2001 Labour govt (Blair)
———————————–
Labour majority: 167
Without Scottish MPs: 129
NO CHANGE
2005 Labour govt (Blair/Brown)
——————————————–
Labour majority: 66
Without Scottish MPs: 43
NO CHANGE
2010 Coalition govt (Cameron)
——————————————
Conservative majority: -38
Without Scottish MPs: 19
CHANGE: HUNG PARLIAMENT TO CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY
Just as an aside - I try never to say things for which I have not seen, read or researched the information. If you think that I am wrong or you believe what I say to be incorrect that's fine - just show me how or ask me to look at it again and I will listen or do so. But to say that what I have posted is a lie implies that I sat in my living room and just plucked something out of thin air = made it up, fabricated it out of nothing other than a desire to deceive. Do you not know by now that I dont do that. Everything I post is supported by evidence either in the post or referenced in a previous post or if you need a link then ask I will try to provide one. You might not AGREE with me Ducati, or with the evidence that I use but that doesn't make me a liar!
It just makes us .....erm.... not agree! And you know what - Thats ok....
Last edited by squidge; 31-Aug-13 at 10:14.
.Orger
Well said sqidge. The U.K. Government are always busy trying to impose their idea of democracy on other nations, when we have no democracy here in Scotland. When no matter which way we here in Scotland vote we have no say in who governs us.
The anti brigade do not like to think of what the effect will have on the remaining parts of the U.K`s economy if Scotland does succeed in gaining independence. As yet I have yet to see anything mentioned about that.
Banned
Then it is a lie you are passing on because you don't understand the fundamental of one person one vote. Scotland contains 5 million odd voters. Pick any area of the UK with a population of 5 million, do their votes count? Do they influence anything? Of course if they were a single interest group and all voted the same way...who knows? Scotland is not a single interest group, it has about 10% of the voters. I really am sick of one-liners being parroted out by the same individuals in an attempt I presume to influence thick people who can't or don't want to think for themselves
.
1K.Orger
SNP lying comes from the very top of their party.
I was speaking recently to an eminent professor of economics, who happens to be a friend of Ugly Fat Eck. Apparently, it's very difficult to stay friends with Eck because of the continuous lies he spouts about the economics of secession. The professor has explained to Fat Eck why his claims are lies on very many occasions, but Eck still repeats them both in public and to the professor of economics!
Last edited by secrets in symmetry; 31-Aug-13 at 23:38. Reason: poty
Banned
OK, I have again looked at the document, the link to which I posted above. In case you missed it, here it is again;
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...rojections.pdf
Yes, thats pretty positive, upbeat and optimistic! Thank goodness, we are all going to be OK in Eck and Nic's hands after all!
- "Westminster Government says...." - Check
- "Not talking about independence...." - Check
- 60% export in 1998 falling to 1% export in 2005 - Check
- 7% import in 2006 rising to 36% import in 2013 - Check
- Projected import dependency in 2030, 17 years from now, 67% - Check
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