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Thread: 'Sinking ship' warning over county economy

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mi16 View Post
    ....I feel that we turned our backs on tourism as "Caithness didnt need tourists" all the while Orkney and other areas were adapting to embrace the tourist indistry and now have an established industry for the tourist.
    Whilst indeed Orkney has becoming very accommodating for the tourists, its not always the "golden goose" that some may like to think. The tourist can be a very fickle creature, especially this far north where they have to be very hardy souls! Add in some economic uncertainty and a 2 week package holiday to Majorca suddenly seems a lot more viable, especially in terms of £/degree centrigrade.

    Here in Orkney, we get huge numbers of cruise boat passengers, but very little economic benefit. Sure, the council rakes it in with harbour dues, pilotage and whatever, but various surveys have shown that the actual spend of the tourist once ashore is quite minimal. They have paid for, and take breakfast before leaving the ship, and scuttle back there for their evening meal. As one of many ports on their itinerary, they can maybe afford to buy a small souvenir or trinket in each port, but thats about it. In exchange, the rest of us that are supposed to be reaping the benefit, cannot get moving in town for tourists wandering all over the place, and roads closed to accommodate them.

    With regards to some of the money which tourism "injects" into the local economy, a lot of that hardly has time to settle and its off again. Self catering tourists have either stocked up in Tesco on Wick on the way by, or do the same in Tesco in Kirkwall, buying up all the non local produce that Tesco favours, with their money heading straight off to Tesco HQ down south. Sure, a few locals get a wage out of it, but its not a huge return on the headline grabbing figures that tourism is "supposed to be worth".

    Those tourists in serviced accommodation paint a similar picture, with many of their catering providers buying in their supplies, again non locally produced, from Tesco or wholesalers.

    Now, don't get me wrong - Many tourists do spend locally, and this is a welcome boost. But I wonder what fraction of the "however many millions of pounds the tourist industry is worth to the local economy", flies away back down south without barely touching down here?

    Caithness, like Orkney also likely suffers from the biggest bane of the tourism industry here, and thats the very short season. June to August is good, but after that, its all quiet again. Some hotels have even taken to closing in the winter, as its not worth their while to stay open. Of course, that means seasonal only jobs, which get filled by itinerant workers who come to Orkney for the summer, work their socks off for not a lot of money, then head off somewhere else in September to their next job, and to spend the money they made here.

    Now, if Caithness could persuade their tourists to come all year round, and to spread their money around the local economy, there there might be a more viable significant industry that will help keep the county going. From memory, I think tourism is supposed to be worth £32m a year to the Orkney economy - With about 21,000 of a population, thats £1,523 for every one of us. Useful, but not exactly enough to sustain us all year round, especially when much of that doesnt stay in Orkney more than a couple of days anyway!

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by mi16 View Post
    If there was a post of the year award, i think Flavours would have it nailed with the above post, well done.
    It seems to me that we have been spoiled in Caithness for the past 50 or so years, with Dounreay and fishing boosting the local area, I feel that we turned our backs on tourism as "Caithness didnt need tourists" all the while Orkney and other areas were adapting to embrace the tourist indistry and now have an established industry for the tourist.
    We in Caithness are lagging behind badly and nothing seems to change, meanwhile the county is hemorrhaging good skilled workers heading for the South where employment with a future can be obtained.
    Yes, it was a indeed a great post from the Queen of Ice Cream.

    Welcome to the forum haggiseater19.

    What happened to the first 18 haggis eaters?

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by orkneycadian View Post
    Whilst indeed Orkney has becoming very accommodating for the tourists, its not always the "golden goose" that some may like to think. The tourist can be a very fickle creature, especially this far north where they have to be very hardy souls! Add in some economic uncertainty and a 2 week package holiday to Majorca suddenly seems a lot more viable, especially in terms of £/degree centrigrade.

    Here in Orkney, we get huge numbers of cruise boat passengers, but very little economic benefit. Sure, the council rakes it in with harbour dues, pilotage and whatever, but various surveys have shown that the actual spend of the tourist once ashore is quite minimal. They have paid for, and take breakfast before leaving the ship, and scuttle back there for their evening meal. As one of many ports on their itinerary, they can maybe afford to buy a small souvenir or trinket in each port, but thats about it. In exchange, the rest of us that are supposed to be reaping the benefit, cannot get moving in town for tourists wandering all over the place, and roads closed to accommodate them.

    With regards to some of the money which tourism "injects" into the local economy, a lot of that hardly has time to settle and its off again. Self catering tourists have either stocked up in Tesco on Wick on the way by, or do the same in Tesco in Kirkwall, buying up all the non local produce that Tesco favours, with their money heading straight off to Tesco HQ down south. Sure, a few locals get a wage out of it, but its not a huge return on the headline grabbing figures that tourism is "supposed to be worth".

    Those tourists in serviced accommodation paint a similar picture, with many of their catering providers buying in their supplies, again non locally produced, from Tesco or wholesalers.

    Now, don't get me wrong - Many tourists do spend locally, and this is a welcome boost. But I wonder what fraction of the "however many millions of pounds the tourist industry is worth to the local economy", flies away back down south without barely touching down here?

    Caithness, like Orkney also likely suffers from the biggest bane of the tourism industry here, and thats the very short season. June to August is good, but after that, its all quiet again. Some hotels have even taken to closing in the winter, as its not worth their while to stay open. Of course, that means seasonal only jobs, which get filled by itinerant workers who come to Orkney for the summer, work their socks off for not a lot of money, then head off somewhere else in September to their next job, and to spend the money they made here.

    Now, if Caithness could persuade their tourists to come all year round, and to spread their money around the local economy, there there might be a more viable significant industry that will help keep the county going. From memory, I think tourism is supposed to be worth £32m a year to the Orkney economy - With about 21,000 of a population, thats £1,523 for every one of us. Useful, but not exactly enough to sustain us all year round, especially when much of that doesnt stay in Orkney more than a couple of days anyway!
    Do you have anything like a farmers' market, where tourists can buy local produce, and perhaps also locally-produced arts and crafts?

  4. #24

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    Hi Secrets, I am afraid I am the last haggis eater standing - the other 18 left due to the poor employment opportunities in the county. This haggis eater would like to fight for a future but fears he may have to join the other 18 in new pastures.

    There was an article in the Scotsman regarding the Orkney Pelamis Marine Energy Project being a failure and E.ON withdrawing their support and money due todelays, failures and the costs involved in producing something commercially viable. Now, it seemed to me that our Socio-Economic gurus had wave and tidal energy pegged as the cash cow that would provide for Caithness (and Orkney) way beyond my time ...... where does this leave us now?

    Also, with our improved network infrastructure any energy / power that is created from the Firth will be transmitted south and once again we will see no benefit from something upon our own doorstep. I would have thought there could be some levy placed on every kilowatt that gets transmitted south to the benefit of the area it is being taken from (us)! I wonder if that has ever been discussed or do Edinburgh / Inverness need all the cash for themselves?

    Going back to the one voice (Rheghead) - I would have thought we should go forward with one voice to show we are in agreement; this would only be possible when there was a consensus of opinion within the community. If we don't speak with one voice, prospective employers may go somewhere where they can agree on issues.
    Last edited by haggiseater19; 24-Aug-13 at 23:37.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    We have already seen the start of the point of which I am trying to make by the refusal of public sculptures at Dunnet because the 'committee' and the vocal minority didn't share the creative vision of the artists who were used in the consultation.
    Rheg, sorry if i'm wrong and i'm not doubting you but i was under the impression that HC gave the go-ahead for the sculptures in March this year and they have already been selected?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by secrets in symmetry View Post
    Do you have anything like a farmers' market, where tourists can buy local produce, and perhaps also locally-produced arts and crafts?
    There used to be a farmers market on a Saturday on Broad Street, but not seen it now for a few years now on my trips to Kirkwall. Not sure whats happened it - It was a good thing to have. And there are more arts and crafts outlets than you can shake a stick at. Trouble is that folks like cruise liner passengers can only buy a limited amount or value in each of their ports, and they tend to be on the lookout for low cost trinkets that don't take up much space. Some years ago, someone worked out that the average spend of the cruiser was a mere £10. Now, whilst we like to make them welcome and sell them a momento, thats not going to be the kind of revenue that is going to sustain an economy.

    Areas like the North of Scotland and the Islands would do an awful lot better from tourism if the season could be extended more than 3 months, and if spend could be retained. Whilst figures such as £32m per year are bandied about as the "worth" of the industry to the local economy, I would be interested to understand what the retained worth would be as the money passes though the 2nd, 3rd and 4th transactions. I suspect that £32m is the gross value of what tourists spend. By the time the net value is calculated, I suspect its an awful lot less.

  7. #27
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    Areas such as the North of Scotland would do much better if the tourist trade wasn't ripped off by cheap tat and rubbish made "gifts" that are bought wholesale and which the sellers claim were "Made in the area" I was amazed at the tat in Kirkwall the last time i was up there! African gems, Swarovsky crystal & beaded jewellery, aluminium stamped jewellery with cow designs and CND signs on it. WTF! That lot had absolutely nothing to do with Orkney nor anything to do with its heritage and traditions and has just been bought from a wholesaler down south! I feel sorry for the few true remaining Orkney crafters who must be holding their heads in despair at those who have come from afar, muscled in and opened up their tat wholesale junk shops claiming it to be "Orkney crafted". Provenance should be the holy grail of all crafters, not a wholesale suppliers catalogue

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gaz View Post
    Areas such as the North of Scotland would do much better if the tourist trade wasn't ripped off by cheap tat and rubbish made "gifts" that are bought wholesale and which the sellers claim were "Made in the area" I was amazed at the tat in Kirkwall the last time i was up there! African gems, Swarovsky crystal & beaded jewellery, aluminium stamped jewellery with cow designs and CND signs on it. WTF! That lot had absolutely nothing to do with Orkney nor anything to do with its heritage and traditions and has just been bought from a wholesaler down south! I feel sorry for the few true remaining Orkney crafters who must be holding their heads in despair at those who have come from afar, muscled in and opened up their tat wholesale junk shops claiming it to be "Orkney crafted". Provenance should be the holy grail of all crafters, not a wholesale suppliers catalogue
    You are one of those pesky anti-globalists that we are made to be against.
    Last edited by Rheghead; 25-Aug-13 at 23:10.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gaz View Post
    Rheg, sorry if i'm wrong and i'm not doubting you but i was under the impression that HC gave the go-ahead for the sculptures in March this year and they have already been selected?
    No. That is not the case.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gaz View Post
    Rheg, sorry if i'm wrong and i'm not doubting you but i was under the impression that HC gave the go-ahead for the sculptures in March this year and they have already been selected?
    I have evidence that a local councillor actually voted against his own personal intention due to his perception that he would be in the minority. He didn't want to be perceived as the odd one out. Funny that if they all felt that way due to a loud vocal minority. Democracy isn't served that way.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    No. That is not the case.
    So has this been stopped then?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...lands-21831872

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    You are one of those pesky anti-globalists that we are made to be against.
    Since when was i for a one-world government?

  13. #33

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    I'm sure that Alex Salmond guy will save Caithness with his "oil" as soon as the evil English demolish that nasty Dounreay golf ball thing.... maybe he could do a deal with them and buy it to store all of Scotland's "oil" in. What we need up here are more windmills, that would bring the tourists flocking in.... we also need more midges imported up as tourists (and locals) would keep the chemists alive by buying plenty of Avon skin so soft..... I don't think there are enough sheep, we need to invest in sheep, they are the future..... their droppings could be converted into "fuel" which would power the pumps that will be pumping Alex Salmonds oil into the great white ball.... we also need to accept that this is basically bogland and wilderness so need to get our wellies on and go digging for worms with our shovels...... the worm industry is big business http://www.redwormcomposting.com/buy-composting-worms/ make your own compost, grow your own vegetables.... we all have the space up here to be self sufficient.... there's no need to work inside a giant golf ball...... make some compost, grow your own and barter with your neighbour..... "I'll give you two cabbages and a sack of potatoes for one of your hens"..... it's the old way, it's the only way the Caithness economy can survive..... Once the English taxpayer stops subsidising the Scots bang go your free prescriptions so what better time to start growing "alternative" medicine..... there will be no NHS so Caithness could pioneer in "alternative medicine".... we could have local shamans, witch doctors, grand elders, witches.... the works.......

    It's not a case of going forward that will boost the economy it's more a matter of going back 300 years in time and living as we did then..... that would really attract the tourists (and general hippie type moondancing people)...... let's get rid of our cars, buy a donkey instead..... get rid of electricity and totally detach from the rest of the world..... have a good old knees up in a candle lit barn once a week drinking home made hooch...... you don't want to make this place the "same" as everywhere else, you want to make it unique and THAT is what it's selling point would be.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by haggiseater19 View Post
    Hi Secrets, I am afraid I am the last haggis eater standing - the other 18 left due to the poor employment opportunities in the county. This haggis eater would like to fight for a future but fears he may have to join the other 18 in new pastures.


    There was an article in the Scotsman regarding the Orkney Pelamis Marine Energy Project being a failure and E.ON withdrawing their support and money due todelays, failures and the costs involved in producing something commercially viable. Now, it seemed to me that our Socio-Economic gurus had wave and tidal energy pegged as the cash cow that would provide for Caithness (and Orkney) way beyond my time ...... where does this leave us now?


    Also, with our improved network infrastructure any energy / power that is created from the Firth will be transmitted south and once again we will see no benefit from something upon our own doorstep. I would have thought there could be some levy placed on every kilowatt that gets transmitted south to the benefit of the area it is being taken from (us)! I wonder if that has ever been discussed or do Edinburgh / Inverness need all the cash for themselves?
    I'm not surprised that E.ON abandoned Pelamis. IIRC the last firm result I read from Pelamis was that 1 Pelamis could power 30 or 40 kettles. They didn't put it like that of course....

    Maybe they'll improve both the design and the technology, but I've never been convinced that Pelamis would be worthwhile. Surely there must be better approaches to extracting energy from the waves....

    I'm more sanguine about tidal, and it would surely generate enough work to feed at least 18 haggis eaters.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gaz View Post
    Since when was i for a one-world government?
    Erm, anti-globalists are against a one-world government. So are you an anti-globalist?
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gaz View Post
    Yes it has been stopped.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheghead View Post
    Yes it has been stopped.
    It was in the Groat back in May.

    Planning chief says sorry over Dunnet debacle

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by orkneycadian View Post
    There used to be a farmers market on a Saturday on Broad Street, but not seen it now for a few years now on my trips to Kirkwall. Not sure whats happened it - It was a good thing to have. And there are more arts and crafts outlets than you can shake a stick at. Trouble is that folks like cruise liner passengers can only buy a limited amount or value in each of their ports, and they tend to be on the lookout for low cost trinkets that don't take up much space. Some years ago, someone worked out that the average spend of the cruiser was a mere £10. Now, whilst we like to make them welcome and sell them a momento, thats not going to be the kind of revenue that is going to sustain an economy.

    Areas like the North of Scotland and the Islands would do an awful lot better from tourism if the season could be extended more than 3 months, and if spend could be retained. Whilst figures such as £32m per year are bandied about as the "worth" of the industry to the local economy, I would be interested to understand what the retained worth would be as the money passes though the 2nd, 3rd and 4th transactions. I suspect that £32m is the gross value of what tourists spend. By the time the net value is calculated, I suspect its an awful lot less.
    I was thinking about self-catering tourists and campers/caravanners when I asked about the Farmers' Market. I appreciate that cruise liner passengers are unlikely to spend much in a food market.

    Do you have any ideas for how to extend the season? I don't....

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