Labour for Independence

[squidge]

What doesnt make sense equus?

[equusdriving]

What doesnt make sense equus?

are you kidding? or do you mean other than most of the so called facts and figures spouted by the "rose tinted glasses wearing , anti English/British/Westminster chip on the shoulder" brigade"

and does this mean I am not on ignore again?

[squidge]

No Im serious Equus - what facts and figures do not make sense.

And do you mean anti English or anti westminster or anti british or are you using those terms interchangeably to suggest all Independence supporters are Racist - and what chip on the shoulder are you talking about

Maybe if you are having difficulty understanding something then I can explain it to you. Thats all - maybe I cant but I hate to think of you as confused of caithness.

Are there real issues Equus or just boring tired old insults?

[equusdriving]

No Im serious Equus -

so am I

And do you mean anti English or anti westminster or anti british or are you using those terms interchangeably

well whatever cap fits, in your case anti-Westminster and anti- British

to suggest all Independence supporters are Racist

there you go again, where did I suggest or say " all Independence supporters are Racist "

and what chip on the shoulder are you talking about

Thats the woe is us everyone is against us chip

Maybe if you are having difficulty understanding something then I can explain it to you

therein lies the problem, how can you explain, what you don't know?

Are these real issues or are they just the thinly disguised boring insults that seem to be all you post on this subject?

mmmm funny how you spend so much time replying to them, I suppose that says more about you

[squidge]

I maybe anti westminster although i try to be pro independence rather than anti anything. I am absolutely NOT anti british. That would be silly, I AM british, i will remain british if there is a yes vote, I am happy to BE british so Im not sure why you would think I am anti british. This referendum is not about nationality Equus, its about democracy, what sort of democratic government do we want- one voted for by Scotlands electorate, with the power and mandate to make decisions based on the priorities of Scotland - or not.

Equus i did not say that you said all nationalists are racist, i asked you what you meant, asked you to clarify the point you were making.... Sheesh!

What woe is me chip are you talking about too Equus, I already said on This thread that I am happy, that Scotland is a good place to be. I simply think we have an opportunity to be better.

I can explain what I know and what I understand, if you dont ask the questions then i cant answer them. Some things I dont know but I will always say if I dont know something. But you are probably happier just making pronouncements about my character than engaging in any sensible discussions. Which is a bit weird cos I dont think we have ever met so im not sure what gives you the knowledge to do so.

I do reply you are right. Not sure what more that tells you about me but tonight It probably tells you that we had an awesome time at the Fort George Celebration of the Centuries today. Talked to so many folk about medieval food that my voice is a bit croaky and Im buzzing so I cant sleep. And Why should i let you call me names and spout nonsense and insults without challenging them? Why would I? I wouldnt let you away in real life with saying some of the things you say so why would you think Id let you away with them in cyber world? But then you probably wouldnt say some of the things you say in real life.

[Rheghead]

I AM british, i will remain british if there is a yes vote, I am happy to BE british so Im not sure why you would think I am anti british. This referendum is not about nationality Equus, its about democracy, what sort of democratic government do we want- one voted for by Scotlands electorate, with the power and mandate to make decisions based on the priorities of Scotland - or not.

"I'm British and I want a Parliament that is democratically decided by the British people."

I stuck with the subject of British in my statement whereas you smoothly swapped over to the subject of Scotland in the narrative...

I've seen this style of debating on countless subjects before.

like

'I've nothing against wind farms but...'

'I'm not against travellers but...'

etc etc

[Phill]

Funny how there is a lot of clever wordsmithery over the semantics of, what is in effect, irrelevant detail.

[squidge]

Its not completely irrelevant detail Phil. See Rheg and Equus would have people believe that this referendum is about nationality when it is not. The reason why I moved smoothly to the issue of Scotland is because the referendum is about Scotland.

My nationality is not at issue, i dont think i even used the word 'but' at all. I could be french, polish, indian or pakistani, it is immaterial. I would not have even mentioned it apart from Equus making his unfounded and nonsensical comments. My home is here, my life is here, I am invested in the place that I live, with my work, the voluntary work I do, my children go to school here and I love living here. I will still be British after Independence. Just like I would still be French, polish indian or pakistani. The referendum is not about nationality so the suggestion that by supporting independence makes me anti british is daft.

This referendum is about democracy not nationality. Rheg is happy with a Westminster Government, Rheg has alteady said that he thinks that things are fine so why rock the boat. That is fine for Rheg but it is not for me. I would prefer an Independent Scotland. Surprise surprise... Thats Not because I am anti british or in thrall to my handsome husband or because i am thick.

I welcome wholeheartedly questions and discussions and opportunities to ask and answer questions and yet, instead I have thinly veiled insults and patronising nonsense from people I absolutely know can do better. Its as boring for me as it is for others but i cant sit and let people say things that are not true. Which brings us back to the referendum being about the sort of government, society and democracy we want NOT about my or anyone elses nationality.

[Rheghead]

This referendum is about democracy not nationality.

How can it be about democracy? The last and only vote that we had about democracy was when we voted if we were going to get proportional representation and that was democratically voted out by a simple majority.

Now and I know what you are going to say. We have proportional representation already, well that is fine. But it is under one where Rob Gibson SNP actually lost the election but still got into power and one where no one party was going to have an overall majority.

So I tell you what, this referendum is not about democracy, it is about political escapism to some pseudo-socialdemocratic utopia that doesn't exist and can never exist. Not because we want a vote on it but because we can have a vote on it due to the failure of the Labour party and Libdems in the Scottish parliament making an absolute shambles with what they tasked to do, ie run the bloomin country!

Under independence, we will not have the political and economic strength of Union, we will be out on a limb, both politically but also economically and geographically. That same Scottish parliament will have powers to do what it likes on a broader range of issues that could and probably will jar with its closest neighbour who is stronger and more capable of lifting itself out of economic downturns.

That same Scottish system will have no fallback, no safety net and its minister's failures will have a full impact on us. Do you trust them?

Meanwhile, in Union, the Scots have brought and nurtured socialism throughout Westminister. Scots have brought political balance. Scots have over represented themselves in high political office at Westminster. Scottish social influence has mixed symbiotically with the economic powerhouse of the south and brought the best for the whole Union.

I speak of what history can show to have already happened. The SNP can only sell an ideal that just appeals every Scot's heart but not his head.

No, this referendum is not about democracy, it is about a dreamocracy...

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Ooooh much better Rheg. Much much better than the mysoginistic nonsense. Forgive me for waiting til tomorrow to respond but I know you will understand that after two days speaking to hundreds of people and sitting sleepily here waiting for my head to stop buzzing with the really good feedback we have had and with random medieval food facts, im a bit shattered. Ask me about the Bishop of yorks pie and ill probably be able to talk about it in my sleep but anything more is a bit beyond me until I have slept.....

[ywindythesecond]

How can it be about democracy? The last and only vote that we had about democracy was when we voted if we were going to get proportional representation and that was democratically voted out by a simple majority.

Now and I know what you are going to say. We have proportional representation already, well that is fine. But it is under one where Rob Gibson SNP actually lost the election but still got into power and one where no one party was going to have an overall majority.

So I tell you what, this referendum is not about democracy, it is about political escapism to some pseudo-socialdemocratic utopia that doesn't exist and can never exist. Not because we want a vote on it but because we can have a vote on it due to the failure of the Labour party and Libdems in the Scottish parliament making an absolute shambles with what they tasked to do, ie run the bloomin country!

Under independence, we will not have the political and economic strength of Union, we will be out on a limb, both politically but also economically and geographically. That same Scottish parliament will have powers to do what it likes on a broader range of issues that could and probably will jar with its closest neighbour who is stronger and more capable of lifting itself out of economic downturns.

That same Scottish system will have no fallback, no safety net and its minister's failures will have a full impact on us. Do you trust them?

Meanwhile, in Union, the Scots have brought and nurtured socialism throughout Westminister. Scots have brought political balance. Scots have over represented themselves in high political office at Westminster. Scottish social influence has mixed symbiotically with the economic powerhouse of the south and brought the best for the whole Union.

I speak of what history can show to have already happened. The SNP can only sell an ideal that just appeals every Scot's heart but not his head.

No, this referendum is not about democracy, it is about a dreamocracy...

Stunned. Absolutely Stunned
I agree 100% with Reggy!

I can understand why there is an emotional tendency towards an independent Scotland, but I cannot understand why anyone would want the current SNP leadership to be in charge of it! From the top down they are liars. If not personally lying, they do not dispute lies told under "collective responsibility"

[nirofo]

How can it be about democracy? The last and only vote that we had about democracy was when we voted if we were going to get proportional representation and that was democratically voted out by a simple majority.

Now and I know what you are going to say. We have proportional representation already, well that is fine. But it is under one where Rob Gibson SNP actually lost the election but still got into power and one where no one party was going to have an overall majority.

So I tell you what, this referendum is not about democracy, it is about political escapism to some pseudo-socialdemocratic utopia that doesn't exist and can never exist. Not because we want a vote on it but because we can have a vote on it due to the failure of the Labour party and Libdems in the Scottish parliament making an absolute shambles with what they tasked to do, ie run the bloomin country!

Under independence, we will not have the political and economic strength of Union, we will be out on a limb, both politically but also economically and geographically. That same Scottish parliament will have powers to do what it likes on a broader range of issues that could and probably will jar with its closest neighbour who is stronger and more capable of lifting itself out of economic downturns.

That same Scottish system will have no fallback, no safety net and its minister's failures will have a full impact on us. Do you trust them?

Meanwhile, in Union, the Scots have brought and nurtured socialism throughout Westminister. Scots have brought political balance. Scots have over represented themselves in high political office at Westminster. Scottish social influence has mixed symbiotically with the economic powerhouse of the south and brought the best for the whole Union.

I speak of what history can show to have already happened. The SNP can only sell an ideal that just appeals every Scot's heart but not his head.

No, this referendum is not about democracy, it is about a dreamocracy...

WOW!!! Rheghead, what can I say ?

[squidge]

Somewhat recovered from the weekends exertions......

How can it be about democracy? The last and only vote that we had about democracy was when we voted if we were going to get proportional representation and that was democratically voted out by a simple majority.

Now and I know what you are going to say. We have proportional representation already, well that is fine. But it is under one where Rob Gibson SNP actually lost the election but still got into power and one where no one party was going to have an overall majority.

I agree with you - the proportional representation system that we have is not really that - how can people end up with politicians representing them who lost an election. In addition I find it bizarre that those politicians who represent a list seat - so were allocated a seat based on the party they represent - can then resign from that party and yet keep their list seat. That makes no sense and whilst I applaud those politicians who have done this because they have a particular principle I would have been more impressed if they had resigned their seats completely.

So there is no plan just now for the UK to have a further referendum on proportional representation. We have the system we have for better or worse. If, however Scotland was to gain its independence then we could have the democratic system we want to have. We know that the Greens favour proportional representation, we also know that the Lib Dems would be delighted to revisit this issue again. We also know that there are organisations working on this issue like the Electoral Reform Society, to get an understanding of the sort of democracy that we could choose to have if Scotland was Independent. The current system was devised for Scotland by the UK government at the start of Devolution. We do not have to keep it. Independence is not the end - its the start. There will be many things that we will have the opportunity to change and your proportional representation is one of them. So after the Referendum you can vote for a party who have this issue in their manifesto and MAKE it happen. Cos as sure as eggs is eggs its not going to happen at Westminster.

So I tell you what, this referendum is not about democracy, it is about political escapism to some pseudo-socialdemocratic utopia that doesn't exist and can never exist. Not because we want a vote on it but because we can have a vote on it due to the failure of the Labour party and Libdems in the Scottish parliament making an absolute shambles with what they tasked to do, ie run the bloomin country!

I disagree fundamentally that it is not about democracy. Scotland IS a country in its own right - there is not and never has been ANY political doubt about that - many of the most ardent unionists believe that absolutely and historically it was a country with its own crown and political system. You are right the referendum came about because of the failure of labour and the lib dems. You may not like the fact that we have the referendum at all but for whatever reasons including those you mentioned the Scottish Electorate voted for the SNP and the SNP made it quite clear that if elected they would hold a referendum. It wasnt a secret, it wasnt sprung upon some 'poor ignorant voter'. It was clearly stated that this would happen and so given that they achieved that majority they have a democratic mandate to hold that referendum.

But this isnt just about deciding if the democracy we want is Independence - it is about deciding if the democracy we want is a union with the UK. It might just as likely be one or the other. You can vote NO remember. Despite repeated attempts to make this referendum about Alex Salmond, about nationality, about a stupid historically inaccurate film, about one man's power trip or a bunch of lefty no marks wanting their "communist republic of scotland" it is fundamentally about none of these things.

The ONLY thing that the referendum will ask in September 2014 and the ONLY issue that the referendum is about is whether Scotland should be governed by an Independent Scottish Government or Whether Scotland should remain as part of the UK. That is IT.

To different people the answer they will give may depend on all those things I just mentioned and we see them here on this board as a microcosym of the whole world. We see people making decisions because they want a better society. We see people deciding because they have a dream of "pseudo-socialdemocratic utopia" ( Im not sure what that is BTW) We see people deciding because they think it is one mans power trip, we see people deciding because they want a republic or because they have a pathological hatred of Alex Salmond - those are all reasons to make your choice - based on what is important to you but they are not what the referendum is about. It is about the sort of democracy we have in the future and it is a democratic way of making that decision. That is a good thing you know - its the right way to go about things.

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Part two....

Under independence, we will not have the political and economic strength of Union, we will be out on a limb, both politically but also economically and geographically. That same Scottish parliament will have powers to do what it likes on a broader range of issues that could and probably will jar with its closest neighbour who is stronger and more capable of lifting itself out of economic downturns.

We will not have the same political strength as the Union. You are right. Scotland will be a small country. Small countries do very well across a whole range of indicators. They are not drawn into the huge power trips of the larger countries. As an Independent Scotland which it is looking like will be a member of the EU and a NATO then we will have opportunities to contribute to World politics at a level which will suit our contry and our priorities. There is academic research which I have linked to previously which pre dates the plan for a Scottish Referendum which shows that Smaller countries have a greater level of involvement and influence in Europe on the issues which are pertinent to them; that smaller countries avoid grandstanding and get on with the business of politics - delivering the best possible results for the people of the country that they represent based on the priorities of that country. Scotland may not be a "superpower" but it wont be trying to act like one either.

As for economically being out on a limb. Well we are economically out on a limb now - we have limited influence on the economic levers because we have limited power to change them - we are however recovering slowly from the economic downturn. With the powers to change the economic levers then we could meet the priorities of Scotland and its people more directly. We could focus on jobs and growth and we could alter and change our benefit system in a way we cannot do now. If you are saying that we cant afford it then I disagree. Even without oil we can meet the costs of running our own country. I'm not going to say much more about this cos this post is long enough as it is. If there are specific issues then we can maybe discuss them one by one in a bit more detail.

That same Scottish system will have no fallback, no safety net and its minister's failures will have a full impact on us. Do you trust them?

Meanwhile, in Union, the Scots have brought and nurtured socialism throughout Westminister. Scots have brought political balance. Scots have over represented themselves in high political office at Westminster. Scottish social influence has mixed symbiotically with the economic powerhouse of the south and brought the best for the whole Union.

I dont trust any politician which is why I check and recheck and recheck again to the minutest of detail and the boredom of the whole world what is said.

You are right to say that Scots and the scottish social influence has been massive and vital within the union and that is why I have confidence that Scots and the scottish social influence can bring a success to an Independent Scotland. I have no doubts about the ability of people within Scotland to be the best they can be and to do the best for Scotland. Independence means the politicians making decisions about what happens in Scotland are MORE accountable to the scottish Electorate - not less. Precisely because its ministers failures will have a full impact on us. Voting yes will ultimately give us a Government which is elected by the people of Scotland based on what the people believe are the priorities of Scotland. That government will be wholly focused on representing Scotland and delivering what is best for Scotland. It will be accountable solely to the people of Scotland and should it fail then it will be replaced by one chosen by the people of Scotland. That does not happen now, the Westminster government is not accountable to the people of Scotland the Scottish electorate has made little difference to the results of the Westminster elections. That means that who ever has secured power in an election would have done so without the Scottish vote whether Scotland voted with or against that party.

These last two points you make Rheghead suggest that you think that Scotland is too poor and too small to be a success. I am sorry about that. I do not agree that is the case.

I speak of what history can show to have already happened. The SNP can only sell an ideal that just appeals every Scot's heart but not his head.

The SNP can sell the vision they like. There is no guarantee that they will form the first government of an Independent Scotland. There is no guarantee that the political landscape will remain the same. You are right when you talk about history but in doing so you gloss over recent history which has seen Scotland suffer with high unemployment, poor health and poor social welfare. You are absolutely right to say the Union has served us well. I have agreed with you on this before but it is no longer doing so. I love history, it informs us and it enlightens us but it is not all there is - there is a future too and whilst we should acknowledge the past we should also not let it hold us back. The future is ours too and it is for the taking.

No, this referendum is not about democracy

And here we are - right back where we started. I hope that I have shown you why I disagree - and that it is not because I am thick, stupid, anti english, anti british, carrying around some massive chip on my shoulder, deluded because of my deep affection for my friends and family or some sort of Crank as Golach so delicately puts it. I hope you can see that I have opinions and reasons which although different are as valid to me as yours are to you.

it is about a dreamocracy...

I hope so - without dreams nothing ever changes.