bird strikes & wind farms

[Kenn]

Have been following the various points with great interest and maybe some one can tell me if there is a way that wind turbines can be made visible to birds ?
I remember many years back the concerns about swans flying into high voltage cables and eventually a simple solution was found, hang reflective discs every few feet along them.This seems to have been adopted throughout this country and elsewhere with great success.Whilst I appreciate that this would not be viable on a wind turbine's blades as it would interfere with what little efficiency they have, there surely must be some way to make them bird friendly.
Thinking caps on folks.

[Rheghead]

All that Steel ,concrete and Landscape wasted on a power source that will hardly boil a kettle ...

Have you any suggestion that the energy used to create a windfarm will outweigh the energy that can be retrieve from one over its life time or are you just making guess work?

[dozy]

Rheghead
I never guess on anythings. it facts that stand up .I do find that some people dont understand what the total carbon footprint means.Its not just taking a look that the Turbines and saying YES its 40 tonnes of steel 30 Tonnes of composite materials and 1000 tonnes of Concrete.The calculation is more complicated.
You have to start with the first meeting or phone call and ADD all the people,the travel ,the mining of the raw material the machines used and fossil fuel comsumed.All the transport needed and machining of the raw metals and the list goes on right up to the scrapping and energy needed on recycle whats left and thats just the Turbine .Then add in the on site installation like the roads across the peatland ,the service engineers and the powerlines .
You work it out and then say that Turbines will save CO2 .
If we would take the subsidy that the Taxpayer is giving Companies on just 1 turbine and spent it on Energy saving lightbulbs we could have 8 less turbines destroying the Landscape
Saving on the energy production we have now will reduce CO2 and will inturn save the Environment and wildlife.
Yours is a " leave the fridge door open and it will reduce Global Warming" is just as stupid as it sounds.....

[Rheghead]

Rheghead
I never guess on anythings. it facts that stand up .I do find that some people dont understand what the total carbon footprint means.Its not just taking a look that the Turbines and saying YES its 40 tonnes of steel 30 Tonnes of composite materials and 1000 tonnes of Concrete.The calculation is more complicated.
You have to start with the first meeting or phone call and ADD all the people,the travel ,the mining of the raw material the machines used and fossil fuel comsumed.All the transport needed and machining of the raw metals and the list goes on right up to the scrapping and energy needed on recycle whats left and thats just the Turbine .Then add in the on site installation like the roads across the peatland ,the service engineers and the powerlines .
You work it out and then say that Turbines will save CO2 .
If we would take the subsidy that the Taxpayer is giving Companies on just 1 turbine and spent it on Energy saving lightbulbs we could have 8 less turbines destroying the Landscape
Saving on the energy production we have now will reduce CO2 and will inturn save the Environment and wildlife.
Yours is a " leave the fridge door open and it will reduce Global Warming" is just as stupid as it sounds.....

Dozy, I never guess on anything either and when I see a statement like yours then I tend to find out if it is correct or not.


Of course you can simply blindly dismiss it as propaganda for the wind industry but I have never seen a convincing calculation by any anti windies to suggest that the energy that it takes to make a windfarm actually outweighs or is a significant comparison of the energy that we get from them. Go do the calculation and tell me what you come up with. They recoup their energy within a few months of operation. I guess you will never come up with one that can be cross referenceable.

And yet the Energy balance of wind farms is shown by three separate studies to be strongly in favour of the energy that they produce. The studies are there to be shot down in flames but do stand up to criticism because they are true.

Your comment about using the subsidy used on windfarms to buy light bulbs doesn't make sense. Why would one part of a strategy to reduce CO2 emissions be used to jeopodise another?

[KittyMay]

Dozy, I never guess on anything either and when I see a statement like yours then I tend to find out if it is correct or not.


Of course you can simply blindly dismiss it as propaganda for the wind industry but I have never seen a convincing calculation by any anti windies to suggest that the energy that it takes to make a windfarm actually outweighs or is a significant comparison of the energy that we get from them. Go do the calculation and tell me what you come up with. They recoup their energy within a few months of operation. I guess you will never come up with one that can be cross referenceable.

And yet the Energy balance of wind farms is shown by three separate studies to be strongly in favour of the energy that they produce. The studies are there to be shot down in flames but do stand up to criticism because they are true.

Your comment about using the subsidy used on windfarms to buy light bulbs doesn't make sense. Why would one part of a strategy to reduce CO2 emissions be used to jeopodise another?

Are you admitting to not having calculated the true carbon footprint yourself and being quite content to quote wind industry figures?

As to your argument against spending less money to produce greater benefits - astonishing.

[dozy]

The studies you mention have how been shown to be not correct. In their calculations they have taken that the Wind study graphs are a constant,this was never true and the new Climate Change Forecast shows that the figures where off by a factor 60% so the total energy return is greatly reduced .The new figures will be published shortly and the Turbine Industry will have a hard time justifying an 20% efficiency far short of the claimed 33% that they are pushing at the moment.The change in Climate/Weather should have the Government pushing methods inwhich every house should produce a greater proportion of it energy consumption and that should start with reducing demand .
The Wind Turbine Industry has nothing to do with saving the Planet, Environment or CO2 .Its just the way of CONNING the public into believing that we are doing our bit, but it the TAXPAYERS money that is being wasted and it could be put to better use .....
I have stated before that i have reports from Denmark and Germany on why they are taking there turbines down and are more than happy to have the STUPID BRITS buy them .I am in contact with them daily as one Engineer to another on a new cross tidal project of the North of Scotland and it will produce 150MWh ever hour ......Can you tell me how many 2mw turbines you would have to erect to supply the same amount of power...The system has no tidal change lag ......

[Rheghead]

The studies you mention have how been shown to be not correct. In their calculations they have taken that the Wind study graphs are a constant,this was never true and the new Climate Change Forecast shows that the figures where off by a factor 60% so the total energy return is greatly reduced .The new figures will be published shortly and the Turbine Industry will have a hard time justifying an 20% efficiency far short of the claimed 33% that they are pushing at the moment.The change in Climate/Weather should have the Government pushing methods inwhich every house should produce a greater proportion of it energy consumption and that should start with reducing demand .
The Wind Turbine Industry has nothing to do with saving the Planet, Environment or CO2 .Its just the way of CONNING the public into believing that we are doing our bit, but it the TAXPAYERS money that is being wasted and it could be put to better use .....
I have stated before that i have reports from Denmark and Germany on why they are taking there turbines down and are more than happy to have the STUPID BRITS buy them .I am in contact with them daily as one Engineer to another on a new cross tidal project of the North of Scotland and it will produce 150MWh ever hour ......Can you tell me how many 2mw turbines you would have to erect to supply the same amount of power...The system has no tidal change lag ......

Well done, blindly rejected as predicted, well you have got it all wrong if you think that the capacity factor has anything to do with energy balance...

[Rheghead]

Are you admitting to not having calculated the true carbon footprint yourself and being quite content to quote wind industry figures?
.

Can you give me some data about the construction and the materials that go into a wind farm then I will have a go.

[Rheghead]

The Wind Turbine Industry has nothing to do with saving the Planet, Environment or CO2 .Its just the way of CONNING the public into believing that we are doing our bit, but it the TAXPAYERS money that is being wasted and it could be put to better use .....
.

Can you explain to me how 'taxpayers'' money is being wasted? The money doesn't come from taxation.

[nirofo]

Rheghead
I never guess on anythings. it facts that stand up .I do find that some people dont understand what the total carbon footprint means.Its not just taking a look that the Turbines and saying YES its 40 tonnes of steel 30 Tonnes of composite materials and 1000 tonnes of Concrete.The calculation is more complicated.
You have to start with the first meeting or phone call and ADD all the people,the travel ,the mining of the raw material the machines used and fossil fuel comsumed.All the transport needed and machining of the raw metals and the list goes on right up to the scrapping and energy needed on recycle whats left and thats just the Turbine .Then add in the on site installation like the roads across the peatland ,the service engineers and the powerlines .
You work it out and then say that Turbines will save CO2 .
If we would take the subsidy that the Taxpayer is giving Companies on just 1 turbine and spent it on Energy saving lightbulbs we could have 8 less turbines destroying the Landscape
Saving on the energy production we have now will reduce CO2 and will inturn save the Environment and wildlife.
Yours is a " leave the fridge door open and it will reduce Global Warming" is just as stupid as it sounds.....

You also forgot to mention that when the ground/peat etc is dug for each windmill foundation there is a release of CO2 to the atmosphere, couple that to the well known and published maximum power output efficiency of 30% that the windfarms are capable of and it paints a very different picture to those who care to do their homework without being blinded by the green at any cost brigade. These windmills are not worth the cost of the metal they're made from, they are a waste of resources that would be better spent elsewhere. They will never replace the need for conventional and nuclear power stations, all our hard earned tax payers money should be used to produce energy efficient power stations and not squandered on worthless windfarms that don't help to reduce the worlds total CO2 emissions one jot.

nirofo.

[Rheghead]

You also forgot to mention that when the ground/peat etc is dug for each windmill foundation there is a release of CO2 to the atmosphere, couple that to the well known and published maximum power output efficiency of 30% that the windfarms are capable of and it paints a very different picture to those who care to do their homework without being blinded by the green at any cost brigade. These windmills are not worth the cost of the metal they're made from, they are a waste of resources that would be better spent elsewhere. They will never replace the need for conventional and nuclear power stations, all our hard earned tax payers money should be used to produce energy efficient power stations and not squandered on worthless windfarms that don't help to reduce the worlds total CO2 emissions one jot.

nirofo.

Put facts and figures together and lets have a look at your findings. The windturbines recoup their energy of installation within a few months.

Can you explain how peat cutting is not green? It can be argued that peat for fuel is renewable, in fact the Fins reckon they can cut peat for energy sustainably.

[KittyMay]

Can you give me some data about the construction and the materials that go into a wind farm then I will have a go.

Sorry, no. I don't know the facts so have never commented on the carbon footprint of any power station.

Am worried about hijacking a birdwatching thread. How do you go about asking for a new forum for discussions on energy and climate change?

[Rheghead]

Sorry, no. I don't know the facts so have never commented on the carbon footprint of any power station.

Am worried about hijacking a birdwatching thread. How do you go about asking for a new forum for discussions on energy and climate change?

Three independent studies show that the wind balance of windfarms are very favorable. Unless you have some form of information which is beyond those researchers then it is folly to summmise that windfarms haven't a good energy balance.

I agree that this thread has gone off topic.

[KittyMay]

Can you explain how peat cutting is not green? It can be argued that peat for fuel is renewable, in fact the Fins reckon they can cut peat for energy sustainably.

Maybe the Fins have developed a clever peat cutting technique that prevents the carbon to escape whilst also speeding up the renewable peat growing process by a factor of about a million times.

[KittyMay]

Three independent studies show that the wind balance of windfarms are very favorable. Unless you have some form of information which is beyond those researchers then it is folly to summmise that windfarms haven't a good energy balance..

As I've just said - I've never commented on this topic.

[Rheghead]

Maybe the Fins have developed a clever peat cutting technique that prevents the carbon to escape whilst also speeding up the renewable peat growing process by a factor of about a million times.

Perhaps they have worked out that peat growth at 1mm per year will be enough carbon sink to mitigate their carbon profile?

[Rheghead]

As I've just said - I've never commented on this topic.

If you have an opinion then I'd love to hear it, especially if it is in favour of windfarms. If you think that their energy balance is favorable then you wouldn't mind pointing that out? hehe...

[nirofo]

[quote=Rheghead;187993]Put facts and figures together and lets have a look at your findings. The windturbines recoup their energy of installation within a few months.

Can you explain how peat cutting is not green? It can be argued that peat for fuel is renewable, in fact the Fins reckon they can cut peat for energy sustainably.[/quote]


You obviously do too much talking to find out what you're talking about, search the web, do a bit of googling, it's all there if you care to look for it, all the information you can imagine about windfarms, CO2 emissions, load factors, footprint, etc, etc. Anyway don't you know CO2 is naturally trapped in the ground in massive amounts nearly everywhere, especially in a biomass like peat. When peat is cut, dug or burned it releases large amounts, (for it's volume) of CO2. Peat is a non renewable fossil fuel which if used for powering power stations will give off more CO2 per tonne than it's equivalent in coal. No one is contradicting the fact that peat can be burned for energy production, but can you imagine the huge amounts that would be needed to supply all our energy needs, even forgetting the huge CO2 emissions that would result.

Incidentally, there's a forum on the internet discussing the pros and cons of windfarms going back about 2 years, it's part of Bird Forum and has many genned up people posting there. If you want a real insight into this topic I suggest you log on to the following web address and browse for a while, should take you several weeks. Keep you quiet for a while anyway !!

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=27198

nirofo.

[KittyMay]

If you have an opinion then I'd love to hear it, especially if it is in favour of windfarms. If you think that their energy balance is favorable then you wouldn't mind pointing that out? hehe...

Sorry to disappoint you but I lack the necessary knowledge on carbon footprints that allows for comment. However, I have read, probably about a hundred differing views on this subject and am extremely confident in my decision to ignore any figures produced by the wind industry.

Dozy may be quite correct and I am content to leave the calculations and investigation in his capable hands. The really sad thing is that I very much doubt if it were ever proven that wind was not carbon neutral it would have any effect on the outcome anyway. Wind worshipping would continue.

As to your remarks about peat. Maybe the government will use the same process for the development of peat as a fuel as for wind. Offer large subsidies to the biomass industry and let landowners decide if they want to sell off their bogs. This might seem lunacy, given the objective is to reduce carbon emissions, but it hasn't been a problem for the wind industry. (Fortunately, peat bogs are protected and SNH and RSPB would have apoplectic fits if this ever came to pass)

It appears our government (and your good self) are quite in favour of handing over the responsibility of national security to landowners and developers.

[dozy]

Its great that the WINDIES are also quoting how many homes the electricity from these useless machines are suppose to cater for ,but they never answer the question WHEN...Thats WHEN is the power available
Can the turbine provide BASE LOAD ......NO
Can they provide for DEMAND...............NO
You must agree that we are a supply and demand society and Turbines can't supply it ,when we demand it ...
I gave a challenge to a few Councillors and Windies. That i would supply a device that would only allow electricity to flow in their homes when the Turbines on the Causewaymare was turning......So NO wind.... No power ...None would take it up ..I wonder why .....