The Death Penalty

[Flynn]

Seems then that the "Let's mollycoddle the accused, just on the off chance that they might be innocent, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary" brigade, have no issue with kiddies being molested, women being raped or the innocent victim being murdered.I guess we should also dispense with prisons in case anyone mistakenly gets sent there too and is deprived of days, months or years of their lives which they will never be able to get back if we got it wrong. Safest then not to convict anyone of anything, just in case.

Really? Is that the best you can do? A strawman argument?

I will never condone executing innocent people. Ever.

[Flynn]

That would appear Flynn and Rob's reasoning, personally if they have reasonable doubt at court they are innocent if not why keep them at horrific cost to tax payers. (I'm beginning to sound like a tory commenting on benefits) so no more from me.

And what if that person turns out to be innocent? You have then committed murder.

[orkneycadian]

Why is it the anti death penalty club always gloss over the key fact? Its not for when there is doubt, only when there is no doubt, whatsoever.

DNA + irrefutable CCTV + reliable witness + the perp saying "Yeah, I done 'im good guv - 'e had it comin to 'im - An I'll be back to get 'is bruvver the week I get let out again"

[Oddquine]

Why is it the anti death penalty club always gloss over the key fact? Its not for when there is doubt, only when there is no doubt, whatsoever.

DNA + irrefutable CCTV + reliable witness + the perp saying "Yeah, I done 'im good guv - 'e had it comin to 'im - An I'll be back to get 'is bruvver the week I get let out again"

And why does the main thrust of those so keen on the death penalty concentrate so much on the cost to the taxpayer of jailing them for any length of time....far less for their natural life? Would they be considering that killing them would reduce ongoing Government costs..and save them an increase in income tax/VAT?

How often has DNA + irrefutable CCTV + reliable witness + the perp saying "Yeah, I done 'im good guv - 'e had it comin to 'im - An I'll be back to get 'is bruvver the week I get let out again" ever happened? We can all do completely irrational and , frankly, stupid to try to make a point on forums.....but in the end.....the only question which needs to be asked.....and answered honestly....is Would you personally be happy to have someone not guilty of murder excecuted for it.......and would you be just as happy if it was your child being executed despite his/her innocence?

[orkneycadian]

the only question which needs to be asked.....and answered honestly....is Would you personally be happy to have someone not guilty of murder excecuted for it.......and would you be just as happy if it was your child being executed despite his/her innocence?

Of course not. But thats the point that is so blatantly obvious to some, but so invisible to others....

If someone is not guilty, you do not execute them

If there are doubts over their innocence (or guilt), you do not execute them

If someone is downright guilty, beyond doubt, you do.

Why is that concept so simple to grasp?

OK, so now, reverse question time.

Would you, and answer honestly now, be willing to send someone to jail, perhaps never to be released again, or even at the very least 15 years, if they could be innocent?

[Alrock]

Of course not. But thats the point that is so blatantly obvious to some, but so invisible to others....

If someone is not guilty, you do not execute them

If there are doubts over their innocence (or guilt), you do not execute them

If someone is downright guilty, beyond doubt, you do.

Why is that concept so simple to grasp?

OK, so now, reverse question time.

Would you, and answer honestly now, be willing to send someone to jail, perhaps never to be released again, or even at the very least 15 years, if they could be innocent?

Preferable to death.... There is a chance that the truth would come to light & they can be released from jail... You can never be released from death....

[Alrock]

If... Upon conviction... The convicted was given the choice of life imprisonment or death & they chose death, would you respect their decision?

[orkneycadian]

Preferable to death.... There is a chance that the truth would come to light & they can be released from jail... You can never be released from death....

And how do you return their freedom to them, that you have deprived them of for much of their life by erroneously imprisoning them?In any case, your point again relates to an uncertain conviction. Not a certain one.

[Oddquine]

i d like to know your views if it was your wife ,husband ,son ,daughter, brother, sister, mother or father that was murdered . would you still think 8 or 9 years in a cushy nick would be punishment enough. im not a believer in god , but do snt it not state somewhere in it , an eye for an eye???

we do not have a deterent for crime in this country , human rights my arse . the dead victim s never got that option . it s about time some old values were reinstalled.

And would you be happy if your innocent child was hanged for something he/she did not do because circumstantial evidence?

[golach]

And would you be happy if your innocent child was hanged for something he/she did not do because circumstantial evidence?

Evidence is rarely circumstantial these days, what with the developement of forensic science these days, I watch CSI, they are magic

[Rheghead]

And would you be happy if your innocent child was hanged for something he/she did not do because circumstantial evidence?

I'm sure if it was the job of a parent to judge their kids in the courts (irrespective of the validity of the evidence) the jails would be largely empty.

[orkneycadian]

And would you be happy if your innocent child was hanged for something he/she did not do because circumstantial evidence?

What's the obsession with hanging innocent people?The point of debate is that it is only for the guilty, proven beyond all doubt.The innocent, the perhaps innocent and your innocent daughter really have nothing to fear.

[cptdodger]

Just out of interest, have any of you have done jury service ? I have done it twice, once in England, Maidstone Crown Court, and in Scotland, Dundee Sheriff Court. The two systems being completely different.

[Oddquine]

Of course not. But thats the point that is so blatantly obvious to some, but so invisible to others....

If someone is not guilty, you do not execute them

If there are doubts over their innocence (or guilt), you do not execute them

If someone is downright guilty, beyond doubt, you do.

Why is that concept so simple to grasp?

OK, so now, reverse question time.

Would you, and answer honestly now, be willing to send someone to jail, perhaps never to be released again, or even at the very least 15 years, if they could be innocent?

If it was a choice between executing them or not.......then I would be OK with them being jailed until they could prove their innocence....never seen the point, myself of posthumous pardons...because posthumous means too bliddy late! Those who have had posthumous pardons are just as much victims as the person they were erroneously hanged for killing..but they are victims of everyone in the country via the state......and their family has no comeback as in their child's killer being prosecuted and hanged to make them feel better........so the original victim's family gets closure because someone has died to compensate for their loss...and the family of the innocent person who was hanged, because he didn't do it, but might have been in the wrong place at about the wrong time doesn't.........despite the fact that he/she was effectively murdered by the state.

You are doing black and white..all the pro-death penalty supporters are.....but jury verdicts are never black and white......."the balance of probabilities" and "beyond any reasonable doubt" never is, by definition........if there are any other feasible probabilities or any doubts even one juror thinks is reasonable, there is no certainty. Verdicts, in all court cases, barring a full confession with convincing detail, is the interpretation, after discussion, of the evidence, of fifteen people like you and me, in Scotland...and would you think that neither of us would be viewing the case bar through our own POVs, and that the other thirteen jurors would be doing the same.....really?

[Oddquine]

What's the obsession with hanging innocent people?The point of debate is that it is only for the guilty, proven beyond all doubt.The innocent, the perhaps innocent and your innocent daughter really have nothing to fear.

But that is the point......the only people who could be executed with certainty of their culpabilty are those who confess to the crime with enough detail to prove it. Anyone sentenced after a trial in the UK is as likely to be innocent as not, given that trials in the UK are little more than stages for lawyers to show they are more clever/devious than their opponent.

Way back in the 1970s when I was at college, our Law Lecturer took us to a murder trial in Inverness....and after a day sitting watching it, I, a reasonably intelligent person, left completely confused, and thanking God I wasn't a member of the jury having to come to a decision.

[Neil Howie]

It would be very very difficult (if not impossible) for the guilty to be "proven beyond all doubt".

Even where dna is involved (that's not to say that it is a very good tool, but we should be careful).

Yes, there is always a possibility that the state-of-the-art DNA testing result is faulty: there might have been a contamination of the materials or the testing might not have been conducted properly, and there have definitely been mistakes made in the past that were revealed later.

Indeed, there is a very well known case in Japan (Ashikaga Case) where a man was implicated by faulty DNA evidence and later exonerated by more sophisticated DNA evidence.

here

[Oddquine]

Evidence is rarely circumstantial these days, what with the developement of forensic science these days, I watch CSI, they are magic

CSI is fantasy..but fun to watch.

[rob murray]

Seems then that the "Let's mollycoddle the accused, just on the off chance that they might be innocent, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary" brigade, have no issue with kiddies being molested, women being raped or the innocent victim being murdered.I guess we should also dispense with prisons in case anyone mistakenly gets sent there too and is deprived of days, months or years of their lives which they will never be able to get back if we got it wrong. Safest then not to convict anyone of anything, just in case.

Get real : so you would stand in front of an innocent executed persons family and make the "its for the greater good..a mistake was made arguement....I find your comments absolutely disgusting, I am not making a mollycoddle the accused arguement and don't dare drag me into the kiddie molestation / rapes points you make as if I condone this, I have personal experience in dealing with the horrific murder of a close relative, the murderers did their time....would it have brought my relative back if they had been hanged !!! No...: I think people like you get a thrill out of this garbage so crawl back into your cess pit

[orkneycadian]

If it was a choice between executing them or not.......then I would be OK with them being jailed until they could prove their innocence

So you are happy to send someone that could be innocent to jail? To deprive them of their freedom. To deprive them of their family, maybe depriving them of seeing their children and grandchildren grow up? To wreck their career, perhaps cause them to lose their home if being in jail means they cannot keep up the mortgage payments on their house, to perhaps cause a marital breakup, to possibly cause them to descend into drug use out of boredom whilst behind bars, to cause them to "turn criminal" due to the criminal associations they will form whilst being wrongly held. You are happy to do this to an innocent person? And you believe treating innocent people in this way is civilised?

[orkneycadian]

Get real : so you would stand in front of an innocent executed persons family and make the "its for the greater good..a mistake was made arguement....

Again, why do the anti's have such an obsession with executing the innocent? I can't get my head round this fixation that they have.