The Death Penalty

[MerlinScot]

Which means this guy was perfectly sane when he carried out this atrocity. I'm sorry if this offends anybody, but I for one would not lose any sleep (if Norway had the death penalty) if he had been given the death penalty.

Well in that case death penalty would have been appropriated... anyway, given that in Norway there is no death penalty, life imprisonment could be used... the 'funny' part about that massacre is that Norway's justice system never faced such a slaughter in its history so I guess there was not a punishment suitable for such a criminal.

[jacko]

The major problem with the death penalty is those who have been found guilty and then many years late found to of been innocent. There have been a number of instances where this has happened, including so called 'child killers'.

How do you bring these people back to life, once they have been hung?

Your right , but with modern forensic s , DNA and different policing method s today , that would be somewhere like a 99.99 chance of occurring .
Why should the like,s of Hyndley ,Brady , Robert Black and the Yorkshire Ripper , ETC ETC be allowed to live a life . a life of far better comfort than our pensioners have . at the expense of the TAX PAYER,.??.... sorry , but i am in favour of the return of the death penalty for such hidious crimes. and take away all the goody s the cons get in jail, these were implimented to keep the con s pacified. get tough with these parasites , treat them with the contempt that they deserve .

[Flynn]

Sorry... Should have been more specific...

As the Criminal.

Even if you were innocent and wrongly convicted?

[gerry4]

Tell this to a crime victim's family. There are more guilty criminals out of jail than innocent people in. A perfect justice system doesn't exist.
Do you know that the 'excuse' you just mentioned is the reason why 95% of sex offenders are at large in Scotland? Well I'd prefer them hung, to be honest..instead of looking over my shoulder all the time when it's dark.

You would be happy then if you were falsely convicted of murder or a sex crime and hung? There have been many cases of wrongful conviction.

[Oddquine]

In the past mistakes were made, with the advance in science DNA and the likes the likelihood of mistakes are very much at a minimal.

I wish! Most forensic evidence is down to interpretation by individuals or as a result of running a computer programme written by individuals and the comparators input by individuals. Wherever people are involved, you are going to get mistakes. Improper handling of evidence will produce flawed results and visual matching of evidence against comparators is a subjective exercise

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...lysis-methods/

Some excerpts.......

In 2009, a Houston police crime lab audit found irregularities in more than half of fingerprint examinations sampled. Officials hired consultants to review 4,300 cases and work through a 6,000 case backlog.

Houston shut its police crime lab's DNA division for several years after 2002 because of problems with the education and training of examiners, misleading testimony and improper evidence storage, leading to at least three exonerations and retesting of thousands of cases.

Professionals declared erroneous handwriting matches or genuine signatures in 6.5 percent and 3.4 percent of cases, respectively, in recent studies.

The Santa Clara County, Calif., district attorney replaced his crime lab chief after a murder case was dropped in 2007 and a wrongful armed robbery conviction was overturned in 2003 because of errors by a laboratory fiber expert.

The North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation eliminated its bloodstain pattern analysis unit in 2011 after an examiner was videotaped celebrating after reproducing a result sought by a prosecutor.

CSI and NCIS are not real life.......if only because they tend to catch the mistakes before a conviction....mostly.

I am not against the death penalty per se. I would never say I was, because I know nobody who has been murdered...my opinion might well become more polarised if that ever happened.....but I'm inclined to think I would need to be a lot more certain of a righteous conviction than is possible currently. An eye for an eye only works if you can be certain the eye you are taking actually belongs to the killer. Any convenient person's eye does not give the same closure.

As it is presently, I am against the death penalty because there are still too many mistakes being made in investigation and forensics, through incompetence, poor training etc. I do believe that, until we can prove, without any reasonable doubt, the guilt of an individual, executing that individual is little different to murder in itself. I wouldn't commit murder myself....why would I approve the state doing it in my name?

I'd make life imprisonment life imprisonment, though....but can anyone explain to me, why is it murder if you regularly carry a knife or gun out with you and use them to kill someone once.....either when sober or under the influence of drink or drugs.....and is not murder if you get into a car, and kill someone either by driving under the influence of drink or drugs... or by driving at speed recklessly or dangerously even when sober?

[macadamia]

The second a murderer kills, two things happen. He resigns his membership of the human race, and is conscious of having done so. Secondly, he becomes the least of all breathing creatures, and he knows it. From that moment, he lives in a prison of his own making. He can no longer mix in free society. The shadow of his crime hangs over him. The days of his remaining life drag behind him, an anchor of misery. His torment is to relive, like a loop of film, the occasion, reality and substance of that murder. He knows he is guilty, and he knows he is different to others in a diabolical way. He can never relax again. He can never enjoy easy social interaction, fall in love, or laugh spontaneously. He is ever on guard against himself.

Putting him in prison for a fixed term, short, long, or for life, or ending his life, is of no great extra moment, except to give society some relief, and illusion of justice. He is not ours to judge. He has judged himself.

And been found most terribly wanting.

[tonkatojo]

I wish! Most forensic evidence is down to interpretation by individuals or as a result of running a computer programme written by individuals and the comparators input by individuals. Wherever people are involved, you are going to get mistakes. Improper handling of evidence will produce flawed results and visual matching of evidence against comparators is a subjective exercise

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...lysis-methods/

Some excerpts.......

In 2009, a Houston police crime lab audit found irregularities in more than half of fingerprint examinations sampled. Officials hired consultants to review 4,300 cases and work through a 6,000 case backlog.

Houston shut its police crime lab's DNA division for several years after 2002 because of problems with the education and training of examiners, misleading testimony and improper evidence storage, leading to at least three exonerations and retesting of thousands of cases.

Professionals declared erroneous handwriting matches or genuine signatures in 6.5 percent and 3.4 percent of cases, respectively, in recent studies.

The Santa Clara County, Calif., district attorney replaced his crime lab chief after a murder case was dropped in 2007 and a wrongful armed robbery conviction was overturned in 2003 because of errors by a laboratory fiber expert.

The North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation eliminated its bloodstain pattern analysis unit in 2011 after an examiner was videotaped celebrating after reproducing a result sought by a prosecutor.

CSI and NCIS are not real life.......if only because they tend to catch the mistakes before a conviction....mostly.

I am not against the death penalty per se. I would never say I was, because I know nobody who has been murdered...my opinion might well become more polarised if that ever happened.....but I'm inclined to think I would need to be a lot more certain of a righteous conviction than is possible currently. An eye for an eye only works if you can be certain the eye you are taking actually belongs to the killer. Any convenient person's eye does not give the same closure.

As it is presently, I am against the death penalty because there are still too many mistakes being made in investigation and forensics, through incompetence, poor training etc. I do believe that, until we can prove, without any reasonable doubt, the guilt of an individual, executing that individual is little different to murder in itself. I wouldn't commit murder myself....why would I approve the state doing it in my name?

I'd make life imprisonment life imprisonment, though....but can anyone explain to me, why is it murder if you regularly carry a knife or gun out with you and use them to kill someone once.....either when sober or under the influence of drink or drugs.....and is not murder if you get into a car, and kill someone either by driving under the influence of drink or drugs... or by driving at speed recklessly or dangerously even when sober?

Nay I disagree with life meaning life imprisonment, if someone takes a life and it is proved they should forfeit theirs not be kept for years till they expire.
Also I do not make my comments on USA ifs and buts I comment on this country GB as I live here and personally have no influence over there.
As for car hit and run driving under the influence of drugs/drink it is premeditated in my opinion and not an excuse and the same penalty as any other murder should apply, but it is only my opinion.

[Flynn]

Nay I disagree with life meaning life imprisonment, if someone takes a life and it is proved they should forfeit theirs not be kept for years till they expire.
Also I do not make my comments on USA ifs and buts I comment on this country GB as I live here and personally have no influence over there.
As for car hit and run driving under the influence of drugs/drink it is premeditated in my opinion and not an excuse and the same penalty as any other murder should apply, but it is only my opinion.

Life imprisonment - if it actually means life and they are guaranteed to spend their days until they die behind bars - is more of a deterrent than a quick and easy death sentence. The fact is the death penalty doesn't deter people from murder. All it does is ensure that sometimes entirely innocent people, the mentally ill, and those who cannot afford a good barrister - are put to death.
We have an existing example in the USA's various Death Rows, almost all those on Death Row are poor, uneducated, black, or mentally ill - and they repeatedly put people to death who have had new evidence proving they were innocent because the victim's families demand vengeance, even if it means the death of an innocent.

That isn't justice, not by a long chalk.

[MerlinScot]

You would be happy then if you were falsely convicted of murder or a sex crime and hung? There have been many cases of wrongful conviction.

I've been a victim of crime and surely I've always been more concerned about the herd of criminals getting away with their actions than the few innocent people who get falsely convicted.
And if I was one of the latter but I knew that thanks to the justice system hundreds of criminals are secured under bars or hung, I would accept my fate.
Yet, it's not like that and many criminals escape justice. I've volunteered for many charity associations and supported crime victims too, so believe me... there are not many wrongful convictions.

The problem is that to defend a bunch of innocent people, we forgot all the crime victims who have no justice at all, hundreds if not thousands of them every year.

[Alrock]

Even if you were innocent and wrongly convicted?

In that case then probably No, I'd be hanging on to the hope that the conviction would be overturned.... So, by virtue of being innocent then the death penalty would have had no deterrent effect whatsoever.

However... If I was guilty then the death penalty would be my preferential choice so once again no deterrence.

Life imprisonment would be more of a deterrence, however, I'm sure that if I did murder anybody I'd get away with it so nothing would be enough to deter me, or, I'd be in the frame of mind where I just didn't care so once again no deterrence.

[tonkatojo]

Life imprisonment - if it actually means life and they are guaranteed to spend their days until they die behind bars - is more of a deterrent than a quick and easy death sentence. The fact is the death penalty doesn't deter people from murder. All it does is ensure that sometimes entirely innocent people, the mentally ill, and those who cannot afford a good barrister - are put to death.
We have an existing example in the USA's various Death Rows, almost all those on Death Row are poor, uneducated, black, or mentally ill - and they repeatedly put people to death who have had new evidence proving they were innocent because the victim's families demand vengeance, even if it means the death of an innocent.

That isn't justice, not by a long chalk.

What goes on in USA does not have any bearing to me, I am concerned with this country as I have no influence on USA justice.
I am concerned as to why I/we as taxpayers should keep someone proved guilty till they expire, or are you saying we should keep them on the hope some super Sherlock will prove them innocent ?. I advocate that if there is any doubt they should have been proved innocent.

[Flynn]

What goes on in USA does not have any bearing to me, I am concerned with this country as I have no influence on USA justice.
I am concerned as to why I/we as taxpayers should keep someone proved guilty till they expire, or are you saying we should keep them on the hope some super Sherlock will prove them innocent ?. I advocate that if there is any doubt they should have been proved innocent.

I use the USA of an example of how capital punishment does not work, frequently murders the innocent, and tends not to apply to the rich and the powerful.

If you think that will be any different in the UK you're very much mistaken.

[Flynn]

And if I was one of the latter but I knew that thanks to the justice system hundreds of criminals are secured under bars or hung, I would accept my fate.

I do not believe that for one second.

[tonkatojo]

I use the USA of an example of how capital punishment does not work, frequently murders the innocent, and tends not to apply to the rich and the powerful.

If you think that will be any different in the UK you're very much mistaken.

With the current government of UK doing away with as much legal aid as possible you have a point, but the I'm alright tory doesn't give a toss.

[MerlinScot]

I do not believe that for one second.

You should. The important part is "thanks to the justice system hundreds of criminals are secured", which is not the case, far from that.

[Flynn]

Better hundreds go free than one innocent life be taken.

[MerlinScot]

Better hundreds go free than one innocent life be taken.

That's what happens. But your statement is an offence to all crime victims, Flynn.
You shouldn't disregard the feelings and the plights of all people, of any gender or race, who don't see any justice at all every year.

[Flynn]

That's what happens. But your statement is an offence to all crime victims, Flynn.
You shouldn't disregard the feelings and the plights of all people, of any gender or race, who don't see any justice at all every year.

I see that as less of an affront than that you offer to all the families you would condemn to lose innocent loved ones in an unjust society that puts the innocent to death 'just in case'.

[jacko]

The second a murderer kills, two things happen. He resigns his membership of the human race, and is conscious of having done so. Secondly, he becomes the least of all breathing creatures, and he knows it. From that moment, he lives in a prison of his own making. He can no longer mix in free society. The shadow of his crime hangs over him. The days of his remaining life drag behind him, an anchor of misery. His torment is to relive, like a loop of film, the occasion, reality and substance of that murder. He knows he is guilty, and he knows he is different to others in a diabolical way. He can never relax again. He can never enjoy easy social interaction, fall in love, or laugh spontaneously. He is ever on guard against himself.

Putting him in prison for a fixed term, short, long, or for life, or ending his life, is of no great extra moment, except to give society some relief, and illusion of justice. He is not ours to judge. He has judged himself.

And been found most terribly wanting.

but according to radical muslim ruling he will become a martyr and go straight to their heaven to collect his seven virgin,s. (what a load of arse muck )

seems to me those radicals are so bloody stupid letting themselve s be brainwashed into that line of thinking . ignorance at it s peak.

[MerlinScot]

I see that as less of an affront than that you offer to all the families you would condemn to lose innocent loved ones in an unjust society that puts the innocent to death 'just in case'.

Well, then I should post your comment on a Victim Support forum or Rape Crisis forum so you can explain to them that they should be patient and condoning because to save 0,01% of innocent unlucky people we left the rest of rapists, abusers and murderers out of jail or, if convicted, they were behind bars for a ridiculous amount of time.
And you have to explain this to the parents of raped and tortured children, to the husbands of murdered wives, to the children of a robbed, raped and killed mother.
If you are able to do that, only then I will respect your opinion. Until you keep disregarding 'victims' on a neutral ground... well that's easy, isn't it?

Yours is an unjust society Flynn. And I'm nearly 100% sure that you reason like that because you were not involved directly with the problem and therefore, in a way or another you don't really care. The innocentist 'herd', in any argument, is always the one untouched by the issue.