Against windfarms for good techinological reasons

[garycs]

I do support the idea of wind turbines to a point. Personally I would prefer to see smaller community turbines, or individual domestic turbines, providing power for a group or individual houses via a grid-connect inverter. This basically means that the first part of any load is fulfilled by the turbine with the national grid providing the backup. Unless you are very carefull and organised you're not going to get your entire electricity supply in this way, but it is a far more "honest" solution, no underhand subsidies or carbon credit trading, and has the benefit of being an emergency power supply in the event of a power cut.

I suppose some folk would complain at the idea of every rural property having a small turbine, but I've driven round the northern side of St John's Loch many times and the turbine there isn't at all intrusive.

Of course it wouldn't be a option in built up areas, but no reason why solar panels can't be used in a similar way, they are quite expensive (about £5 per watt of output) but surely it would be better for the government to make them available through councils at a subsidised rate rather than throwing subsidies at the big wind power companies.

I also firmly believe that if you install this sort of equipment you're far more aware of your home's power consumption, it becomes almost a challenge to use only the power you generate and to opt for things like energy saving light bulbs.

Simple fact: If all tungsten filament bulbs were replaced with compact fluorescent bulbs the peak electricity demand in the UK would drop by 3GW, about the same as the output of a large power station.

[MadPict]

Garycs,
If I recall correctly for those who generate their own electricity there is the option to 'sell' surplus electricity back to the electric companies - it gives you credit for any power off the grid that you consume when the wind fails to blow. I supppose if you generate enough you could reach a point where your power would be totally free?

I don't have a problem with alternative forms of power generation and would agree that individuals should be given subsidies to have solar panels/wind turbines fitted to their properties (if planning laws allow). You get subsidies for insulating your home - why not for green energy measures.

Like the system a few years ago of the tax breaks for planting fir trees in Caithness I have my suspicions about who really benefits from these huge windfarm projects....

[garycs]

Madpict,

Yes, you can sell any excess to the grid I think you get about 4p/kwh but you do need a higher spec of controller/inverter which is much more expensive and could be prohibitive. You can make use of the excess by storing in deep cycle batteries for use when demand rises (this would also provide an even better emergency supply in case of power cut) or using a low power immersion heater to top up a hot water tank.

I tend to take a slightly cynical view of who benefits from the various schemes, I'll bet half contents of my bank account that in 10 years time there will be a retired government minister sitting on the board of all these big "Green" companies; and the other £2.50 that they have similar positions with oil companies.

[ywindythesecond]

[quote=garycs;178634]
I suppose some folk would complain at the idea of every rural property having a small turbine, but I've driven round the northern side of St John's Loch many times and the turbine there isn't at all intrusive.(end of quote)

By coincidence, I went to see the same small turbine today at the owners invitation and it was very interesting.
I estimate it to be 6-8 metres high and it was birling at a tremendous rate in todays strong wind.
Its output is rated at 6kw and it achieves about 4kw on average, an excellent result.
Surplus power is sold back to the power company at just below half of the cost of the power they supply, which again is a really good deal.
Theoretically, the owner is entitled to Renewable Obligation Certificates which can be traded at around £40 a time, but there is some procedural hiccup there.
The turbine itself is not a thing of beauty. It looks like a demented hornet, but it works, it saves money, it provides clean electricity, it pays for itself without public subsidy, and it is small and localised, not big and everywhere.
Not like the proposed Dunbeath Windfarm. Check caithnesswindfarms.co.uk for an online objection. Tomorrow is the last day for objections to be lodged, although the Energy Consents Unit man told me they always allow 10 days grace.
I left the owner of the small turbine heading for her computer to lodge her objection.
ywindy

[mareng]

I just wonder how many of the people who say windfarms a good idea live near one or will in the future?

Well, I live in Edinburgh, but if I lived in Caithness again and had sufficient land (and I don't mean an estate) - I would be looking very closely at a wind turbine. Obviously, if the sums were completely nuts - I wouldn't have one - but otherwise........... I'd have it.

On "ywindythesecond's" last post - thanks for the frank appraisal of the St John's loch installation.

I'm going to reinforce what I said on many occasions..................

"If it is perceived to be an intrusion by a future generation, it can be removed with nary a scar on the landscape."

[ywindythesecond]

Well, I live in Edinburgh, but if I lived in Caithness again and had sufficient land (and I don't mean an estate) - I would be looking very closely at a wind turbine. Obviously, if the sums were completely nuts - I wouldn't have one - but otherwise........... I'd have it.


"If it is perceived to be an intrusion by a future generation, it can be removed with nary a scar on the landscape."

Thanks Mareng
By a curious co-incidence, the chap who owns the land the Causewaymire Windfarm is on also lives in your part of the world. He is now making his living by working for windfarm developers and it was he who hand delivered the neighbour notifications for the proposed Burn of Whilk (Yarrows) Windfarm.
Can you please explain how living in Edinburgh entitles you to your strong opinion on windfarms in Caithness?
ywindythesecond

[fred]

Can you please explain how living in Edinburgh entitles you to your strong opinion on windfarms in Caithness?

Please don't.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion as where they live and everyone is entitled to express it.

[Conscience]

Can you please explain how living in Edinburgh entitles you to your strong opinion on windfarms in Caithness?
ywindythesecond

I think the issues facing people are the same anywhere a windfarm is proposed. Some will want them, some will not, some will say they ruin the environment . This is certainly the case of windfarms I have seen in Wales, where previously beautiful areas are now scarred with these monstrosities.

[mareng]

I think the issues facing people are the same anywhere a windfarm is proposed. Some will want them, some will not, some will say they ruin the environment . This is certainly the case of windfarms I have seen in Wales, where previously beautiful areas are now scarred with these monstrosities.

I have lived in Caithness for a large number of years, and perceive that it will never fare well in terms of tourism revenue (so let's not put all our/your eggs in that basket).

As I stated in a previous post - I would not balk at the vision of my own wind turbine every morning as I opened my curtains.

I also find the 'farms' to have a "balletic presence", be they on the Cawswaymire or on the A68 (I think) south of Edinburgh. I struggle to take my eyes off them, to be honest.

I also perceive that windfarms have no adverse legacy on the landscape, so for someone to assert that "beautiful areas are now scarred with these monstrosities" - this smacks of selfishness.

I would recommend that you "put up with the eyesore" for your lifetime - go on....make that (small) sacrifice and let the next generation evaluate the impact based on gained experience. There are few industries that will allow that indulgence.

Yes, I think that tidal energy will ultimately be the better choice but, until that time - let's not dismiss wind power.

I remember the almost - "glee" that the tidal power experiment failure was met with in Caithness-circles. To me it smacked of: "Serves you right for trying to make money out of nothing" (the energy that has always been there, but not exploited). I sense that I will have to defend this position, so will leave that for another posting.

So.......... that's my outlook in a nutshell, so to speak.

[mareng]

Please don't.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion as where they live and everyone is entitled to express it.

Fred - you are correct, of course.

But, I would be happy to install (subject to "justification to myself" being satisfied - and it may not have to be absolutely financially sensible for that) a turbine in my garden/small holding, be it in Lothian or Caithness.

As justification for commenting on "Caithness issues", I have lived there for over 15 years, have parents either from there, or have strong connections with the county, and perhaps can view issues without any rose-tinted glasses which some residents can be coloured by.

[ywindythesecond]

Fred - you are correct, of course.

But, I would be happy to install (subject to "justification to myself" being satisfied - and it may not have to be absolutely financially sensible for that) a turbine in my garden/small holding, be it in Lothian or Caithness.

As justification for commenting on "Caithness issues", I have lived there for over 15 years, have parents either from there, or have strong connections with the county, and perhaps can view issues without any rose-tinted glasses which some residents can be coloured by.

First of all, thanks Fred for reminding me of my manners.
Mareng, I support and encourage wind turbines in gardens. I think you dont quite understand the size and scale of the installations proposed for not just Caithness, but all over the country. And it is not for good environmental reasons, it is for greed. And it doesn't work environmentally either.

Go on, ask me, how many football fields are needed for one industrial wind turbine? Have a guess yourself first.

ywindythesecond

[Conscience]

I have lived in Caithness for a large number of years, and perceive that it will never fare well in terms of tourism revenue (so let's not put all our/your eggs in that basket).

As I stated in a previous post - I would not balk at the vision of my own wind turbine every morning as I opened my curtains.

I also find the 'farms' to have a "balletic presence", be they on the Cawswaymire or on the A68 (I think) south of Edinburgh. I struggle to take my eyes off them, to be honest.

I also perceive that windfarms have no adverse legacy on the landscape, so for someone to assert that "beautiful areas are now scarred with these monstrosities" - this smacks of selfishness.

I would recommend that you "put up with the eyesore" for your lifetime - go on....make that (small) sacrifice and let the next generation evaluate the impact based on gained experience. There are few industries that will allow that indulgence.

Yes, I think that tidal energy will ultimately be the better choice but, until that time - let's not dismiss wind power.

I remember the almost - "glee" that the tidal power experiment failure was met with in Caithness-circles. To me it smacked of: "Serves you right for trying to make money out of nothing" (the energy that has always been there, but not exploited). I sense that I will have to defend this position, so will leave that for another posting.

So.......... that's my outlook in a nutshell, so to speak.

How is it selfish to want to preserve the beauty of our country? To me it is selfish to want to turn everywhere into an industrial landscape, blighted with 200 foot tall towers, whirring away (these things are not quiet by the way). With service roads over green field land that has never been built on before.

Balletic? They are ugly blots on the landscape. They serve no great purpose, they do not replace oil fired power stations, they do not replace nuclear power stations. Those are still required to keep the supply flowing when the wind stops. If we have to have these things then put them off-shore. Do not ruin our countryside with them.

You don't realise how precious what you have is, until it is gone. And once it is gone, it is gone.

[MadPict]

A vision of the future? (replace the mountains in the background with Morven)

[mareng]

As per my previous post - I wouldn't object to a lot more windfarms in Caithness, but......... I don't like seeing development on the basis of a "nice little earner through tax breaks" without moral benefits.

Obviously I have some reading to do (regarding those issues) to wholeheartedly support windfarm development, but up to now - all my comments should be read on the basis of scientific/ aesthetic/ environmental issues.

[mareng]

How is it selfish to want to preserve the beauty of our country? To me it is selfish to want to turn everywhere into an industrial landscape, blighted with 200 foot tall towers, whirring away (these things are not quiet by the way). With service roads over green field land that has never been built on before.

Balletic? They are ugly blots on the landscape. They serve no great purpose, they do not replace oil fired power stations, they do not replace nuclear power stations. Those are still required to keep the supply flowing when the wind stops. If we have to have these things then put them off-shore. Do not ruin our countryside with them.

You don't realise how precious what you have is, until it is gone. And once it is gone, it is gone.

Selfish: I have to disagree on the legacy remaining from a turbine - Turf over the road and the foundation.......... done.

Balletic: This is purely subjective, but I stand by my statement that I would have one in my back garden. (I've always admired the one at Berriedale, as have a majority of children as they travel south/north)

And once it is gone, it is gone: I don't see this. They leave no lasting impact/legacy as far as I can see.

[ywindythesecond]

[quote=mareng;178753]As per my previous post - I wouldn't object to a lot more windfarms in Caithness, but......... I don't like seeing development on the basis of a "nice little earner through tax breaks" without moral benefits.

quote]

Mareng,


http://www.socme.org/goldrush.html

Regarding moral benefits and "nice little earners", this is what opened my eyes.

ywindythesecond

[MadPict]

Sure their physical footprint might be small and easily removed/disguised/covered over but the fact that these things are made out of steel and stand on plinths made from concrete.

7. Building Works

In addition to the wind turbines themselves, environmental impact is created by the foundations, the access roads and transmission lines.

The hole excavated for a turbine's foundation has a volume of 200 - 800 m3 depending on site conditions. This would need a maximum of about 1700 tonnes of concrete and aggregate for a gravity base. Only a quarter or less of the concrete will be cement - the energy intensive component which emits CO² in manufacture.

An average gravity base for a 2.5 MW turbine requires about 40 truckloads of concrete - up to about 250 m3 compared with only 40 m3 for the smaller 250 kW turbines, common a few years ago (Civil Engineering, November 2005).

That's EACH turbine. They are not green to manufacture. So for a farm of 20 turbines thats 34,000 tones of concrete for the bases alone.

All for an efficiency of what? 30%?

If it was 90% it might be acceptable. But it isn't and therein lies it's weakness. It can't be relied on to produce constant power.

[mareng]

How is it selfish to want to preserve the beauty of our country? To me it is selfish to want to turn everywhere into an industrial landscape, blighted with 200 foot tall towers, whirring away (these things are not quiet by the way). With service roads over green field land that has never been built on before.

Balletic? They are ugly blots on the landscape. They serve no great purpose, they do not replace oil fired power stations, they do not replace nuclear power stations. Those are still required to keep the supply flowing when the wind stops. If we have to have these things then put them off-shore. Do not ruin our countryside with them.

You don't realise how precious what you have is, until it is gone. And once it is gone, it is gone.

Sure their physical footprint might be small and easily removed/disguised/covered over but the fact that these things are made out of steel and stand on plinths made from concrete.



That's EACH turbine. They are not green to manufacture. So for a farm of 20 turbines thats 34,000 tones of concrete for the bases alone.

All for an efficiency of what? 30%?

If it was 90% it might be acceptable. But it isn't and therein lies it's weakness. It can't be relied on to produce constant power.

Remove the turbines, turf over the plinths.

Is it really an ecological disaster if, 6" below the turf - there's a deep concrete foundation?

Is anything "green to manufacture"? I think you are singling out wind turbines in this respect to bolster your argument.

Do you take a foreign holiday?, travelling by air? Take your "moral high ground" to that moral conundrum and see how it flies.

Yes, there are downsides to every development, but come on......... are you really demonising concrete production?

[dozy]

We would all like to be as green as possible ,but and theres always a but.When green renewable energy generation DESTROYS the Environment it is supposed to be protecting ,when theres a problem .If the folk in the cities had to generate their electricity locally things would be different . Its the I have the right to destroy were you stay ,because i have the power and the money.Thats what rubs folk up the wrong way,we are having these forests of Steel Industrial Towers forced on us and a very fragile environment is being destroyed .
If the folk in Edinburgh are Windtower Friendly get the executive to put 20 on top of Arthurs Seat and splash the rest as close the the source of demand as possible .Half the electricity produced is lost in the transfer ,so why would anyone that has the environment at its core want to ship electricity Hundreds of miles .
If you were looking at the P&J on Tuesday page 5 inner right hand column ,it stated that micro-turbine manufacturers had given false figures and you would be better spending your money on insulation and energy bulbs long before Windturbines .Its this halfbaked get rich quick schemes that will strangle the micro-renewables at birth.
If we as a County are to have Turbines ,surely we should get all the benefit .We should have a TRUST that will buy and run the Turbines and the money should be used to increase the Health and Fitness of all the residance
of the county as a whole .
The Trust should help all homes and public building become renewable energy
generators ,be it new types of micro wind or solar along with energy saving bulbs and insulation....
There is a new type of windturbine that is looking at setting new targets for micro generation ,its sits along the ridge of your roof and is a helix design and can be 15 ft or over and is producing 2.2kwph .So the longer the ridge on your roof the more power you can get ,the roof itself help generate power from the updraught ...
Lets hope that the folk of Caithness want to protect what nature has taken Thousands of years to give us or are we to see it all to go under steel and concrete.........

[Stumurf]

but they will produce power and as times goes on they will become more and more efficient with practically no legacy.

All power producing equipment has its footprint to create it, the difference is that some of them just have a 1 off payment and from that point we just sit back while power is produced, allbeit at the moment, limited but has no lasting damage or will cause any problems in the future.

as for tourism, i have found plenty of evidence that windfarms can actually be a tourist attraction... and as time progresses the windmills could become less of an eyesore, (why are they always white?) as society realises the benefit of having energy produce as cleanly as possible.

and does all this take into the consideration that maybe one day people will use power more responsibly and we wont need to produce so much?