Atheist Census

**M Swanson** · 03-Jan-13, 18:55

How it's explained has nothing to do with it for me Rheg. The conclusion is simple enough. A chance of there being a God, is exactly that and there's no need for me to be interested in the size, or anything else the agnostic Dawkins has to offer. If that changes then so may my attitude to it. Not that I believe it will. I had hoped that by this stage we may have all found some common ground in agreeing that nothing can be proven, either way. It only needs to be complex if someone makes it so. It's easy for folks like me who believe in God. It's called faith and something that no atheist will ever truly understand, imo.

**Serenity** · 03-Jan-13, 18:57

Originally Posted by M Swanson

That's about it in a nutshell, Rob. No argument here, except that Dawkins has declared himself an agnostic, not an atheist. Now that makes a lot more sense to me. Especially in the light of him stating that there is a chance, that God exists. Makes me wonder what all the fuss is about and why atheists are swinging from his shirt tails.

I had to laugh, when at the end of an interview, he became so frustrated that he said, "Oh! God."

Atheism is not necessarily a statement that there is no god, it is most generally that the person who calls themselves an atheist does not have a belief in a god. Look up hard vs soft atheism and the spectrum of thiestic probability http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectru...ic_probability for much more info. I am with Dawkins at somewhere between 6 and 7.

As for your last statement, how absurd. That phrase is part of language. Does everyone who has ever uttered the phrase "by Jove" believe in the Roman God of said name?

**Serenity** · 03-Jan-13, 18:59

Originally Posted by M Swanson

How it's explained has nothing to do with it for me Rheg. The conclusion is simple enough. A chance of there being a God, is exactly that and there's no need for me to be interested in the size, or anything else the agnostic Dawkins has to offer. If that changes then so may my attitude to it. Not that I believe it will. I had hoped that by this stage we may have all found some common ground in agreeing that nothing can be proven, either way. It only needs to be complex if someone makes it so. It's easy for folks like me who believe in God. It's called faith and something that no atheist will ever truly understand, imo.

I know there is little point to this, but isn't it funny how your faith is in the one man made god that you were (most probably) brought up to believe in and surrounded by culturally?

**M Swanson** · 03-Jan-13, 19:02

Thanks Serenity. I'm awa' for dinner, but I'll definitely check out your link later.

I found the use of the phrase funny. What's so wrong with that?

**Serenity** · 03-Jan-13, 19:04

Originally Posted by Rheghead

I find it interesting that the atheist statistics show that men who are better educated (ie know a few more things than others) are shown to be the biggest group of atheist.

http://www.atheistcensus.com

Does this mean that women or people with a lack of higher education are more credulous?

Does it also mean people over the age of 45 are more credulous?

Maybe yes to all 3 of the above, but there will also be a certain bias towards people who are a - aware of such a census, and b - feel the need to sign it.

**Rheghead** · 03-Jan-13, 19:10

Originally Posted by M Swanson

It only needs to be complex if someone makes it so. It's easy for folks like me who believe in God. It's called faith and something that no atheist will ever truly understand, imo.

I think Richard Dawkins understands it, only too well. You've illustrated his point yourself and you are right, it is easy for you to believe in God no matter how big the odds against it being reality. Dawkins would say that is intellectually lazy, most people with faith would take that as an insult but you've phrased it better, it is the easy thing to do.

**Rheghead** · 03-Jan-13, 19:12

Originally Posted by Serenity

Does it also mean people over the age of 45 are more credulous?

No, I just think people over the age of 45 are a few years closer to death and so they suspend their rationality out of a fear of the unknown.

**billmoseley** · 03-Jan-13, 19:45

Does it really matter who believes in what as long as you lead a good life respect others and do your best.

**Rheghead** · 03-Jan-13, 20:03

Originally Posted by billmoseley

Does it really matter who believes in what as long as you lead a good life respect others and do your best.

I agree 100% with that but when you see all the sectarian violence and religious intolerance around the world then it seems to me the best way to universal peaceful is a world without faith. It makes you think? Religious people like to quote Hitler, Stalin and others to dispute that but I think if we analyse each case then I think it is a disingenuous agument.

**M Swanson** · 03-Jan-13, 20:13

Originally Posted by Rheghead

I agree 100% with that but when you see all the sectarian violence and religious intolerance around the world then it seems to me the best way to universal peaceful is a world without faith. It makes you think? Religious people like to quote Hitler, Stalin and others to dispute that but I think if we analyse each case then I think it is a disingenuous agument.

"Disingenous," Rheg? LOL You blame religion and God, instead of Man, for "sectarian violence and intolerance," then so glibly dismiss the slaughter of an estimated 41 million poor souls at the hands of the atheists, Hitler and Stalin as "disingenuous?" How on earth did you arrive at that? And yes, I think their beliefs mattered a great deal.

**billmoseley** · 03-Jan-13, 20:20

I'm with Rheg on this one. take religion out of the world and i wonder how many wars there would have been?

**Rheghead** · 03-Jan-13, 20:26

Originally Posted by M Swanson

"Disingenous," Rheg? LOL You blame religion and God, instead of Man, for "sectarian violence and intolerance," then so glibly dismiss the slaughter of an estimated 41 million poor souls at the hands of the atheists, Hitler and Stalin as "disingenuous?" How on earth did you arrive at that? And yes, I think their beliefs mattered a great deal.

I don't blame God, how could I? I blame people with faith for sectarian violence.

Hitler wasn't an atheist, he was a roman catholic and he killed millions because of his sectarian views towards another religious group. Stalin was an atheist but he didn't kill millions because of his atheist views.

**M Swanson** · 03-Jan-13, 20:27

Originally Posted by Serenity

Atheism is not necessarily a statement that there is no god, it is most generally that the person who calls themselves an atheist does not have a belief in a god. Look up hard vs soft atheism and the spectrum of thiestic probability http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectru...ic_probability for much more info. I am with Dawkins at somewhere between 6 and 7.

Sorry Serenity, but as far as I'm concerned the spectrum's a waste of my time. I think it's more of a case of can't provide the evidence, so let's dwell on the next best thing ..... probabilities. Definitely not for me!

I think it odd that Dawkins has a religious-style cult that follow him everywhere and seem to revere him as a God. It has an almost evangelical feel to it.

Mind you, I've watched a couple of televised interviews and even if I was an atheist I think I'd be appalled at his lack of respect for other people's beliefs, because they don't match his. Still, each to their own!

**M Swanson** · 03-Jan-13, 20:41

Originally Posted by Rheghead

I don't blame God, how could I? I blame people with faith for sectarian violence.

Hitler wasn't an atheist, he was a roman catholic and he killed millions because of his sectarian views towards another religious group. Stalin was an atheist but he didn't kill millions because of his atheist views.

Well, that's good Rheg, because it places the blame for sectarian violence firmly at the door of Man.

At the time that Hitler took control of Germany he was not a Christian. He certainly didn't do what he did, because of a Christian faith...... he didn't have one. He killed millions of religious folks, because he thought that they held too much power and wealth. But anyone was fair game, irrespective of their religion. As for Stalin, he hated religion and killed millions because of it. He was an atheist and responsible for possibly the worst barbarity ever. Why is it "disingenous," to state this?

**Flynn** · 03-Jan-13, 20:43

Prove there is a 'god'. Any evidence will do. Something it made. Something it wrote. Soemeone who has seen it. In thousands of years someone must have seen it, right?

**M Swanson** · 03-Jan-13, 20:46

Originally Posted by billmoseley

I'm with Rheg on this one. take religion out of the world and i wonder how many wars there would have been?

Hmmmmm! If I was a gambling woman, I'd put a few bob on just as many Bill. It would just be blamed on something else, that's the only difference I can see.

**Flynn** · 03-Jan-13, 20:54

Originally Posted by M Swanson

Hmmmmm! If I was a gambling woman, I'd put a few bob on just as many Bill. It would just be blamed on something else, that's the only difference I can see.

Without religion there would have been no crusades. No inquisitions. No middle east conflict. No witch hunts. No genocides. There is more blood on the hands of religion than anything else in history.

**Rheghead** · 03-Jan-13, 20:58

Originally Posted by M Swanson

At the time that Hitler took control of Germany he was not a Christian. He certainly didn't do what he did, because of a Christian faith...... he didn't have one. He killed millions of religious folks, because he thought that they held too much power and wealth. But anyone was fair game, irrespective of their religion. As for Stalin, he hated religion and killed millions because of it. He was an atheist and responsible for possibly the worst barbarity ever. Why is it "disingenous," to state this?

It is disingenuous because what you said is simply not true.

There is a body of evidence that suggests that Hitler believed in God.

1. Nazi belts had inscribed 'Gott mit uns', why say that if Hitler was an atheist?
2. In his Mein Kampf, he thanks Heaven for having the opportunity to live in such times.
3. Herman Goering states that only a Catholic could unite Germany. Was he lying?
4. Hess in a letter said Hitler was a good Catholic
5. In a speech in Berlin 1933, he spoke of undertaking a 'fight' against the atheistic movement within Germany. Erm, that is against himself then? lol
6. He told Gerhardt Engel that he would remain a catholic forever.

The list goes on....

So yes, it is disingenuous to claim Hitler was an atheist.

And there is not a shred of evidence that shows Stalin killed because of other people's religious views.

**M Swanson** · 03-Jan-13, 21:14

It can suggest what it likes Rheg, but the atheist Hitler wasn't as stupid as some would have us believe. He had to tap into the hearts and minds of many German believers in order for them to fight his war. Are you really surprised that in 1933 he should have made such a speech in Berlin? "And doesn't God is with us," also fit this criteria? Goering lie? Are you serious? I think the list had better stop here, if this is the top six, Rheg.

I've never yet met a Christian, or anyone else, who believed Hitler did what he did in the name of God. Or condoned it in any way, shape, or form!

**Rheghead** · 03-Jan-13, 21:41

Originally Posted by M Swanson

It can suggest what it likes Rheg, but the atheist Hitler wasn't as stupid as some would have us believe. He had to tap into the hearts and minds of many German believers in order for them to fight his war. Are you really surprised that in 1933 he should have made such a speech in Berlin? "And doesn't God is with us," also fit this criteria? Goering lie? Are you serious? I think the list had better stop here, if this is the top six, Rheg.

I accept that individual atheists can do evil things but they don't do them in the name of atheism because that is absurd. Religious wars on the other hand are carried out in the name of their god.

No the list goes on including about Hitler claiming to carry out God's work etc etc.

His language seems to be of a very religous sermon like manner. Of course he could be just doing that as a tool to get his followers on board to carry out his evil acts, but the evidence is what we have to go on and that is what he said and wrote. He did say things against Christianity, but who's brand of christianity? But he seems to distance himself from 'christianity' after 1941 but by no means renouncing his faith.

Originally Posted by M Swanson

I've never yet met a Christian, or anyone else, who believed Hitler did what he did in the name of God. Or condoned it in any way, shape, or form!

I'm not surprised by that, would you want to claim to share the same religious views as Hitler

It is much easier to deny the evidence about him.