What is the SNP?

[John Little]

Resident in Scotland, not Scottish but think things will be better if Scotland is independent. You tell me.

[squidge]

I am that word i cant spell - seccestionist lol lol

Now is a seccestionaist bad and nationalist good or at least better

[John Little]

I am that word i cant spell - seccestionist lol lolNow is a seccestionaist bad and nationalist good or at least better

A Secessionist wishes to break up my country into its component nations so that he or she may gain by it. Themselves or their families. This process involves asset stripping and relocating to a section of the UK population who happen to be resident in Scotland but not necessarily Scots

.The true Nationalist would not care about the hard economics of it - they would just want independence, come what may. That would be the honest path, but they are constrained to make a positive economic case because most folk care about it.

To me, the Secessionist argument is not a moral one.

[squidge]

Themselves or their families? - what about for the good of society as a whole? What about the argument that Scotland could create a better fairer society which could inspire and lead the way for other countries (namely England) to emulate?

[ducati]

Themselves or their families? - what about for the good of society as a whole? What about the argument that Scotland could create a better fairer society which could inspire and lead the way for other countries (namely England) to emulate?

From the people I have been speaking to, should this disaster come to pass, it will be a cold day in hell when England pays any further attention to Scotland at all.

[John Little]

Themselves or their families? - what about for the good of society as a whole? What about the argument that The United Kingdom could create a better fairer society which could inspire and lead the way for other countries to emulate?

Why ghettoise the residents of Scotland?

[squidge]

Why ghettoise the residents of Scotland?

Ghettoised means isolated, confined or restricted - there is no suggestion that Scots will be confined and restricted and no suggestion that people from other places will not be welcome in Scotland so ...... There is also implied that to influence others an Independent Scotland would be outward looking, contributing on a wider stage.

So..... What about for the good of society as a whole? What about the argument that Scotland could create a better fairer society which could inspire and lead the way for other countries to emulate? are these people immoral secceshionists too or nationalists.

[squidge]

Well,actually we're not governed by the Tories,we're governed by the SNP and Emperor Eck 1st.It never ceases to amaze me how many seperatists keep trying to resurrect the Tory bogey-man.

Ach whitechina we dont need to resurrect him he is alive and well and giving out contracts to ATOS as he stalks the sick and disabled

[John Little]

You wish to split Scotland away from the rest of the Uk. To gamble on the future of all parts of the UK. To build your own gated estate and live the good life.

The rest of us can only watch the seduction, powerless, while a demagogue spins his promises.How can the United Kingdom be Secessionist? They are not breaking away from anything. That would be you.

Now I am going to bed. Goodnight.

[squidge]

This isnt about ME john, its about trying to understand where the line is..... What is nationalist.... which people on this thread dismiss as stupid romantic nonsense based on a history which has turned too many people's heads tartan and shortbread tins and something to be sneered at. And what is seccessionist which people dismiss as selfish and grabbing for the sake of their own pockets and something to be sneered at. Im trying to see whether there is an inbetween..... when does nationalism become seccessionism and when does sessessionism become nationalism.

All I am doing is trying to understand yours and others point of view and you still havent answered my question

What about for the good of society as a whole? What about the argument that Scotland could create a better fairer society which could inspire and lead the way for other countries to emulate? are these people immoral secceshionists too or nationalists.

[John Little]

My 'You' is generic, applied to Nationalists generally and not to you specifically- language hath limitations.

I have not sneered at Nationalists; I have even stated that I can dig it.

Nationalism becomes Secessionism the moment that financial calculation comes into it, so that people who would never have thought of separatism suddenly begin to argue intensely about figures; not because of a yearning for self government but because of a rosy dream about 'gain'.

Would they still wish to secede without the 'renewables' ( which Rob Murray throws great doubts on)?
Or the great compromise over oil?
Or the idea that England will need water?

So out come the almost Churchillian glittering promises that when you are independent Scotland will emerge from the dark age into the broad sunlit upland pastures of a land flowing with milk and honey.

That's the promise, and the catch 22 is that you don't even have to deliver because when independence comes all you have to do is go red in the face and say 'Oops - sorry - got our figures wrong' and there's nothing to be done beyond a bit of name calling.
Beautiful - you can't lose (generic you).

Your question was not rhetorical then?

Scotland COULD (maybe) create a better, fairer society. It's easier when you are small.

I doubt very much if other countries would be inspired to emulate it save in some details. Britain pinched the idea of Labour Exchanges and National Insurance from the Kaiser's Germany but would not have wished to emulate their society.
The idea that countries emulate each other seems a little spurious.

I live in a country of 60 million. For 5 million (or a percentage of) to wish to break away, not particularly because they wish to run their own affairs but for gain does not seem moral, especially as 55 million of the body politic will have no say in it at all. Chortling that the foundation of the future independent economy will be founded on a fossil fuel which one affects to despise could be seen as hypocrisy.

None of this would be happening without the prospect of lucre. In my upbringing it smacks too much of selling out the UK for a mess of pottage, or 30 pieces of silver- or both.

Whatever else it's rank opportunism and the best advice I can give is 'Caveat emptor'.

[fred]

I could post this on another thread but I have sworn not to, so must start another.

The SNP were formed in 1934 and were gradually gaining popularity when WWII broke out. In the early years of the war they believed, as did many others, that Germany would win and were hoping to do a deal with Hitler to form a puppet government for an Independent Scotland. Their leader, Douglas Young was imprisoned for attempting to subvert the British war effort and Arthur Donaldson, who went on to be leader in 1960, was arrested in 1941 after subversive literature and weapons were found at his home. He was running an organisation which helped Scots avoid conscription.

Due to Germany losing the war they were somewhat unpopular after that and didn't manage to get an MP into Westminster for long until after they found oil in the North Sea and greed reared it's ugly head.

After oil was found their popularity grew in leaps and bounds but after failing to get devolution in 1979 a group of them decided to take direct action. The plan was to ally the SNP with the Socialist parties then organise a campaign of mass civil disobedience, use the power of the unions. After it was leaked to the press that they had been invited to Ireland by the IRA the members of this group were expelled from the party but sequentially allowed back in and one of them, Alex Salmond, is now their leader.

I don't think any of them, Nationalist or Unionist, gives a hoot about the people of Scotland or Britain, Independence is all about a shift of power between one part of the ruling elite to another and it galls me that they are using the crimes committed by the ruling elite of history against the common people as a weapon in their propaganda war.

[fred]

I could post this on another thread but I have sworn not to, so must start another.

The SNP were formed in 1934 and were gradually gaining popularity when WWII broke out. In the early years of the war they believed, as did many others, that Germany would win and were hoping to do a deal with Hitler to form a puppet government for an Independent Scotland. Their leader, Douglas Young was imprisoned for attempting to subvert the British war effort and Arthur Donaldson, who went on to be leader in 1960, was arrested in 1941 after subversive literature and weapons were found at his home. He was running an organisation which helped Scots avoid conscription.

Due to Germany losing the war they were somewhat unpopular after that and didn't manage to get an MP into Westminster for long until after they found oil in the North Sea and greed reared it's ugly head.

After oil was found their popularity grew in leaps and bounds but after failing to get devolution in 1979 a group of them decided to take direct action. The plan was to ally the SNP with the Socialist parties then organise a campaign of mass civil disobedience, use the power of the unions. After it was leaked to the press that they had been invited to Ireland by the IRA the members of this group were expelled from the party but sequentially allowed back in and one of them, Alex Salmond, is now their leader.

I don't think any of them, Nationalist or Unionist, gives a hoot about the people of Scotland or Britain, Independence is all about a shift of power between one part of the ruling elite to another and it galls me that they are using the crimes committed by the ruling elite of history against the common people as a weapon in their propaganda war.

[squidge]

Blimey Fred.... where did YOU appear from!

[theone]

I don't think any of them, Nationalist or Unionist, gives a hoot about the people of Scotland or Britain, Independence is all about a shift of power between one part of the ruling elite to another and it galls me that they are using the crimes committed by the ruling elite of history against the common people as a weapon in their propaganda war.

So, So true.

[golach]

So true Fred, well done for high lighting the true side of Eck.

[fred]

Blimey Fred.... where did YOU appear from!

I arrived here from a link to the thread on the main page.

[Jerrico]

The SNP is playing a deadly game with Islam, Salmond seems intent on copying Trotskyite agitators who seek to prosper by sweeping young Muslims into their ranks on an ‘anti-imperialist’ agenda. To the chagrin of English revolutionaries, their sects are proving only a halfway-house for young Muslims who prefer a revolutionary cause based on global Islam. Will Scottish nationalism prove a more attractive long-term draw for idealistic young Scottish Muslims? At a conference in Manchester last August Tamimi told his audience that they should see themselves as Muslims in Europe, not European Muslims. He urged them to pledge allegiance to an international Islamic cause rather than offer their primary loyalty to the state which, arguably, gives them far more freedom and economic opportunity than most Muslims can find across the Middle East. My fear is that by reaching out to young Muslims on a simplistic anti-British agenda, all Salmond will succeed in doing is radicalising them and ensuring that the balance of power swings decisively towards militant voices in the Scottish Muslim community.

[John Little]

First step; question the right of the Union to exist.

Second step; conjure up a vision of Shangri-La that appeals to the widest possible spectrum of the public, regardless of origin.

Third step; adjust your principles to manufacture the largest consensus.


Good Propaganda - someone really know what they are doing.



Fred; I agree with you - root and branch.

Thank you.

[Corrie 3]

The SNP is playing a deadly game with Islam, Salmond seems intent on copying Trotskyite agitators who seek to prosper by sweeping young Muslims into their ranks on an ‘anti-imperialist’ agenda. To the chagrin of English revolutionaries, their sects are proving only a halfway-house for young Muslims who prefer a revolutionary cause based on global Islam. Will Scottish nationalism prove a more attractive long-term draw for idealistic young Scottish Muslims? At a conference in Manchester last August Tamimi told his audience that they should see themselves as Muslims in Europe, not European Muslims. He urged them to pledge allegiance to an international Islamic cause rather than offer their primary loyalty to the state which, arguably, gives them far more freedom and economic opportunity than most Muslims can find across the Middle East. My fear is that by reaching out to young Muslims on a simplistic anti-British agenda, all Salmond will succeed in doing is radicalising them and ensuring that the balance of power swings decisively towards militant voices in the Scottish Muslim community.

Wow, we in the SNP are used to scaremongering tactics, lies, deceit, in order to get us to vote against Independence but your post is the biggest load of unproven twaddle I have ever come across......Do you have any links or proof of what you are saying is the truth?

C3..........(shakes head in disbelief)!!