What is the SNP?

**oldmarine** · 18-Aug-12, 19:39

I don't hate the English, I just like the Scots better. I did have a problem with the Chinese Communists when I was sent to China in September 1945 to accept the Japanese surrender and the Communist China troops shot and killed my fellow Marines when they were just doing their assigned job. Since then I have learned to forgive them because they were just following their government's orders.

**John Little** · 18-Aug-12, 19:44

Thank you Oldmarine - let us hope that shooting will never come into this debate.

As for me, though born in England most of my family originates from Scotland, the Isle of Man and Northern Ireland; a small amount of it even originates from England. I have never considered myself as 'English' but always as British.

It is this debate which has made me wonder if I could ever see myself as English but I do not wave flags, support the England team or even have tatoos or a shaved head- so I doubt I could fit in.

I prefer to be British; a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I wonder how the government in Washington would react if California decided they wanted to secede from the Union? They have a pretty big economy I believe...

Would a man's loyalty be to California or to the USA?

**Corrie 3** · 18-Aug-12, 19:57

Originally Posted by John Little

I am British, and you propose to break up my country because you want more pie instead of sharing the pie.

You have that so, so wrong John, we dont want more pie, we just want our equal share and be able to be the one with the knife in our hand sometimes. There is no way the London Govt will allow this so the only way is to vote for Independence, that way we are in charge of our own destiny. If you are happy at being ruled by Tories who think we are all idle so and so's then so be it, I am not!
I wonder if your views would change if you were still living up here John?

C3...........

**oldmarine** · 18-Aug-12, 20:05

Originally Posted by John Little

Thank you Oldmarine - let us hope that shooting will never come into this debate.

As for me, though born in England most of my family originates from Scotland, the Isle of Man and Northern Ireland; a small amount of it even originates from England. I have never considered myself as 'English' but always as British.

It is this debate which has made me wonder if I could ever see myself as English but I do not wave flags, support the England team or even have tatoos or a shaved head- so I doubt I could fit in.

I prefer to be British; a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I wonder how the government in Washington would react if California decided they wanted to secede from the Union? They have a pretty big economy I believe...

Would a man's loyalty be to California or to the USA?

John: The USA did have that problem when the South tried to leave. Abraham Lincoln solved that problem with the Civil War. I hope it never comes to that point again. As for California trying to secede, their debt is proportinate to the USA. I doubt they would want to do that. However, you have made a good point.

**John Little** · 18-Aug-12, 20:09

Originally Posted by Corrie 3

You have that so, so wrong John, we dont want more pie, we just want our equal share and be able to be the one with the knife in our hand sometimes. There is no way the London Govt will allow this so the only way is to vote for Independence, that way we are in charge of our own destiny. If you are happy at being ruled by Tories who think we are all idle so and so's then so be it, I am not!
I wonder if your views would change if you were still living up here John?

C3...........

It's pie.

I've heard Salmond chortling about Scotland having the oil. Scotland having 'the lion's share' of the renewables; England will be over a barrel because they'll be short of energy and have to buy it from Scotland. England will have to buy Scotland's water etc etc etc.

You don't want an equal share; every post I see here from Nationalists is how they want a better future.

So you'll take the bulk of the oil, until now a UK asset and profit from it, while at the same time trumpeting your green credentials.

I have seen no Braveheart stuff from you; no going on about being oppressed by the English and no emotional appeal for FREEDOM.

So like most you are an economic refugee; you want what the rest of us all want but think you can get it by building a ghetto with a tartan wall round it. Despite the last two Prime Ministers and chancellors being Scottish and the present twerp 1st generation Scots.

You think Scotland does not have a big enough say in UK government?

Just think C3 - one of the benefits of independence- Blair, Brown, Darling, Reid would all be in the Scottish government instead. Maybe even Cameron, whose daddy lived in the big hoose outside Aberdeen.

Perhaps there's something in that eh?

(apologies to Mr Cameron - I had not realised that his father died in 2010; but he does keep his family private)

**Corrie 3** · 18-Aug-12, 20:38

Oh come on John,
Blair, Brown, Reid, Cameron etc, may have Scottish roots but they have all been out to line their own pocket, and who can blame them? They dont give a Monkeys about the 18yr old Caithness lads who want to work but has little chance of doing so. Scottishness doesn't come into their lives, only their future and how many bucks they can make along the way come into it.
Sorry John, I am so sick of the British politics, time and time again we get taken for mugs, at least if we are wrong this time we only have ourselves to blame.
A new dawn, a new day......I am ready for the fight for an Independent Scotland.

C3...........

**John Little** · 18-Aug-12, 20:45

Originally Posted by Corrie 3

Oh come on John,
Blair, Brown, Reid, Cameron etc, may have Scottish roots but they have all been out to line their own pocket, and who can blame them? They dont give a Monkeys about the 18yr old Caithness lads who want to work but has little chance of doing so. Scottishness doesn't come into their lives, only their future and how many bucks they can make along the way come into it.
Sorry John, I am so sick of the British politics, time and time again we get taken for mugs, at least if we are wrong this time we only have ourselves to blame.
A new dawn, a new day......I am ready for the fight for an Independent Scotland.

C3...........

Blair, Brown, Reid, Darling - did not just have Scottish roots - they are Scots.

And your 18 year old Scottish lad could be an 18 year old Yorkshire lad, or Dyfed lad, or Manx lad or... (insert whatever you wish)

But you do not care enough about those to fight for a decent Union government. Blow you Jack - I'm alright.

And yes - fine- you want to get taken for a mug again then go ahead. All you need to do is persuade enough people that the offers of more pie are real. Not a fight - a question of enough propaganda.

Only when you have broken up the British state there is no going back.

**Corrie 3** · 18-Aug-12, 21:11

Originally Posted by John Little

Only when you have broken up the British state there is no going back.

I know there is no going back John, thats why its such a big issue, if we fail then I dont know what will happen? And I do feel for the Yorkshire and Welsh Lad's who cant get a job but surely that is down to the Yorkshire and Welsh people to fight for. Sorry John but you are trying to make me feel guilty for trying to leave the UK and that is wrong, I am a part of Scotland, not the UK. We are a separate country, just like Belgium is joined onto France geographically we are only joined at Hadrians Wall. Belgium has survived all these years and there is no reason why we cant!

C3...................

**John Little** · 18-Aug-12, 21:28

I am not trying to make you feel guilty.

My perception is different to yours - that is all. I see your position as selfish as regards the people of the country I live in, which is a very successful union of several nations.

If you can persuade enough people to your view then you will prevail, but I do not see what you are as Nationalist because your prime objectives are all economic secessionist.

But because you dress it up as Nationalism you have a chance to get it - an opportunity denied to Yorkshire.

You say you are a part of Scotland, not the UK. Yet Scotland is in the UK and plays a very important part in its governance, commerce, industry and overall success.

I have never said that Scotland could not make it alone - I know damn fine she could.

At a price.

That's why the 'Nationalist' debate hinges so much on economics. Persuade most of the people in Scotland that they will be better off independent then they will probably vote for you.

If they think they won't then they probably won't.

And if they find they've been conned for their votes with unashamed electoral bribery in the shape of more pie later, then what?

They end up with a highly principled government that never goes back on its promises, never goes back on its principles, never does U turns, never slightly mishandles tram systems, never uses fossil fuels, financially sound, defended by NATO, Euro as its currency.

Machiavelli wrote that the people deserve the government they get.
Go for it C3. Go for it.

**Corrie 3** · 18-Aug-12, 21:40

Originally Posted by John Little

Go for it C3. Go for it.

Thank you John, I will.............Lets all hope we can still be friends after it is all over....

......I wonder what the .Org will look like in 10 years time.....

C3.............

**squidge** · 18-Aug-12, 21:46

So John if you believe that Scotland should be independent because you believe that as a nation Scotland has the right to govern itself, If you believe that Scotland should be independent because it has a right to self determination does that make you a nationalist?

**John Little** · 18-Aug-12, 21:54

1.......Scotland should be independent if the people of Scotland decide that they wish to be independent.

2.......Scotland has the right to self determination.

3.......Self-determination is not merely the process of voting - it is the end state for which people vote. Some people will vote for it because they are Nationalist and for classic Nationalist reasons. Most who vote for it will not do so because they feel 'oppressed' or want to be 'Free'- they will vote for economic reasons.

Or if you mean me? Then asserting the right to self- determination does not make you a Nationalist. It makes you a Democrat.

And the trouble with Democracy is that it relies on persuasion = Propaganda.

**squidge** · 18-Aug-12, 22:03

Sorry, not you personally.

Ok lets try again..... If a person wants an independent Scotland because they believe that Scotland has a right to be independent, to elect a government in Scotland, for Scotland. To have the right to be an independent State - does THAT make them a nationalist. If they have believed that ALL their life?

I wonder what you think a nationalist is - you have said a lot about what is NOT nationalist so I am wondering what you thin a Nationalist is.

**John Little** · 18-Aug-12, 22:08

Originally Posted by squidge

Sorry, not you personally. Ok lets try again..... If a person wants an independent Scotland because they believe that Scotland has a right to be independent, to elect a government in Scotland, for Scotland. To have the right to be an independent State - does THAT make them a nationalist. If they have believed that ALL their life?I wonder what you think a nationalist is - you have said a lot about what is NOT nationalist so I am wondering what you thin a Nationalist is.

Yep - that's a Nationalist sure enough. Please note that hard cash does not figure in your definition.

**whitechina** · 18-Aug-12, 22:08

Originally Posted by Corrie 3

And the alternative is...................Stay as we are and be governed by the Tories who have already said we are a load of Idlers. No thanks, I am willing to take the risk for Home rule.
As for U-turns, there is nobody worse than the Tories for U-turns, and what has Tommy Sheridan got to do with the SNP?

C3..............

Well,actually we're not governed by the Tories,we're governed by the SNP and Emperor Eck 1st.It never ceases to amaze me how many seperatists keep trying to resurrect the Tory bogey-man.