What is the SNP?

[squidge]

Articulate, educated and intelligent members of the SNP must be terminally embarrassed away from some of what is freely available on the internet. Despite constant denials, and the disciplining of dissidents who make homophobic remarks the comments that you come across quite a lot show quite a lot of ill feeling towards England.

It would be unwise to link to some of them of course because I would get banned, but anyone wishing to go to Youtube and search for “Independence for Scotland” who wishes to browse the comments underneath could see a few for themselves. On Facebook there’s a page for a Scot burning an English flag; that's on Youtube too.

The SNP may wish to move the hem of their garment away, but those things are still there.

Saying that it ain’t there don’t make it so.
... At least one supporter of Scottish Independence is using one of their most blatant methods.

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman...ommentsSection


Scroll down to the bottom - click on just about any page...

You suggest the spammer on your link above is a supporter of Scottish Independence when in fact that self same spammer appears on the Scotsmans report about the Women for Independence launch and also on another story I read last week the Ian Davidson Story, In fact if you google the name then you find he or she has spammed the Scotsman, Wings over Scotland, Newsnet Scotland and a variety of other websites across both sides of the argument. Not, i think a cybernat or a cyberbrit simply a pain in the neck!!!!!

The cybernumpties are around all over the net and are not simply a Nationalist invention despite what politicians and the media would like us to think. If you take a look at Wings over Scotland - a pro-indy blog - you will find an piece he did over the weekend which gives a flavour of the twitter postings from unionist supporters during hte closing ceremony of the Olympic Games. Haircurling!!!!! Jason Manford also this week wrote a piece which highlighted the appalling and unpleasant posts which were aimed at Gary Barlow for daring to sing at the Closing ceremony despite he and his wife suffering the agony of a stillborn baby recently. These make me shake my head in disbelief at the cruelty of folk. I read an article in the Highland News recently where the comments were so unpleasant and so wicked that they upset me for a week. I too have been on the end of unpleasant and upsetting comments as several of us "old hands" here at the org were a couple of years ago. Did I think that the comments were indicative of the people posting here on the Org? No I didnt - in fact I am sure some of those who were soooooooo unpleasant are still around but I dont for one minute think that they either meant it or would have carried out some of the suggestions they made.

I didnt like the facebook page where they burnt the flag but then there was one a couple of weeks ago where they burnt a dog! Go looking around the internet for extremists and you will find them. I took a meander through the Scottish Defence League pages in support of the Union and those pages which link from that group and it left me feeling like I needed a shower!!!!

If you want to look for it there is a page for cybernats on facebook. Go have a look - and compare it to what you have seen reported and indeed John, what you are suggesting is the way they behave - you might be surprised.

[John Little]

I cannot see the Cybernats page because you have to join it to see it.

I take your point that the SNP is not composed of such, but trust that you would not deny that the rabid anti-English stuff does exist - in the same way that the rabid Unionist stuff exists. I have seen that too.

If The One has come across such people then I can quite understand why he might view the SNP as having a strong element of anti-Englishness to it.

Fact is that such people exist. They will vote for Independence.

Do you want their votes anyway?

[rob murray]

It’s an interesting knee jerk reaction that people get when they mention the N word.

A red mist comes over folk's eyes and they lash out, outraged, overcome with righteous indignation and they tower in wrath to smite the rash and cowering wretch that dared to even imply that they might share any characteristics at all with the hated N’s.

Articulate, educated and intelligent members of the SNP must be terminally embarrassed away from some of what is freely available on the internet. Despite constant denials, and the disciplining of dissidents who make homophobic remarks the comments that you come across quite a lot show quite a lot of ill feeling towards England.

It would be unwise to link to some of them of course because I would get banned, but anyone wishing to go to Youtube and search for “Independence for Scotland” who wishes to browse the comments underneath could see a few for themselves. On Facebook there’s a page for a Scot burning an English flag; that's on Youtube too.

The SNP may wish to move the hem of their garment away, but those things are still there.



Saying that it ain’t there don’t make it so.


Now as to the Nazis.

In the study of Propaganda the Nazis are quite fascinating, because they were very effective.
From having 12 members of the German Parliament in 1928, they had over 260 by 1933. This was achieved largely by Propaganda, so any party with a publicity department worth its salt would do well to study how they did this.

I won’t strain your patience by developing this, but if I were in charge of raising public awareness for the Tories, Lib-Dems or Labour, then I would study the Nazis and would be delighted if I could copy their success in Propaganda methods.

At least one supporter of Scottish Independence is using one of their most blatant methods.

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman...ommentsSection


Scroll down to the bottom - click on just about any page...

John, the rise of the NAZI party during the period you quote ie 1928 - 33 was not soley down to propoganda, in 1928 the NAZI's were really struggling, a minority party, as the German economy ( even allowing for the payment of war debts et c ) was on the rise so people dont knock the status quo.The 1929 world wide financial collapse which decimatted the German economy gave them a situation ( NAZI party ) which they played out best in a democratic system ie a situation where they could offer alternatives / scapegoats etc, and yes they were, by all recognisition, masters at propoganda as they ultimatley won the propoganda war and hence power through democratic elections, but the key point is if the economy didnt collapse they would never have gained majority as the circumstances needed for propogands would have been very weak. In terms of "propoganda" used re seperatism the SNP occupy the highground undoubtably, as no opposition as of yet has come forward with a coherent strategic arguement for the union. Unless of course you count the bull being sprouted at the back of the GB Olympics. What will be interesting is how the propoganda moves up to 2014....when it come down to it its all economics /money ( early doors the SNP have gained by having the money / donations to stage an early fight ) people can be and will be scared off seperatism by sensationalist economic arguements, so money, circumnstances and resulting propoganda will shape the battle and not solely propoganda

[John Little]

Rob - I agree entirely, which is why I said 'largely propaganda'- you are right of course in that there were other over-riding factors, and the shape of the economy was probably the most important.

What I was thinking of was the use of Propaganda to build the "Folk Community" and the forging of Gleichschaltung as a prototype of what the SNP are about. I do not condemn them for it - it's what I would do in their place to build an argument against the Union.

Ultimately I do not think that there is much to be said for or against the Union; it does not oppress or repress, imprison, kill or torture, but the SNP wish to change the situation so they must manufacture reasons to destroy it in order to manufacture consent.

But the fact is that after a lot of thought I myself see the whole thing as a smash and grab- and you are totally correct to say that Propaganda will decide the battle.

Where is the truth in all of this?

[squidge]

Then join it John - you can always unjoin - you are not signing your life away.

I am glad you have seen the unionist stuff too from your post above I would have thought you had only found the nationalist stuff as you seemed to be suggesting that the cybernumpties are peculiar to the pro independence supporters.

Such people pedalling the anti-english stuff do exist, you are right..... but it is in much smaller amount that we are led to believe. As for racist bigots and their vote all i can say is I ALWAYS ALWAYS challenge racist sentiments whenever and wherever I find it and do exactly that with any anti english stuff I find online. However people - even those expressing racist views = are still entitled to vote and will vote in whichever way they choose. Anti english people will vote for Independence, anti- jewish, anti pakistani and anti -black people Like those in the SDL will vote for the union - i got very grubby finding that out!!!!

As for the SNP, I am not an SNP member but my husband is and believe you me if there was any suggestion of racist undertones he would walk - he has an english wife and three english stepsons who he loves very much for whom he is a wonderful stepfather.

Amusingly the most recent nastiness I have had personally came from a unionist who said that as I was English I shouldnt have an opinion on Scottish Independence and should keep my "English" mouth shut. Scotland he said should be part of the union and I should just go away and make my children's dinner and tidy up the house (expletives and insulting words removed lol)!!!!! Racist and sexist in one post - i thought he did rather well?

[weezer 316]

Good point theone. I have said on umpteen occasions nationlism and religion are the only way the nazis could get away with what they did. Nationalism is quite simply the act of not thinking, appealing to members of a certian people that because you are 'one of them' you not only want whats best but know whats best for 'us'. Its designed to bypass rational argument and facts. How anyone cant see it beyond me. The only way to miss it is to ignore it.

And aside from an accent and a fondness for Irn Bru not one nationalist, depite asking several times, has ever outlined what seperates Scotland and England bar a line on a map and a voice in their head

[John Little]

Then join it John - you can always unjoin - you are not signing your life away.

I am glad you have seen the unionist stuff too from your post above I would have thought you had only found the nationalist stuff as you seemed to be suggesting that the cybernumpties are peculiar to the pro independence supporters.

Such people pedalling the anti-english stuff do exist, you are right..... but it is in much smaller amount that we are led to believe. As for racist bigots and their vote all i can say is I ALWAYS ALWAYS challenge racist sentiments whenever and wherever I find it and do exactly that with any anti english stuff I find online. However people - even those expressing racist views = are still entitled to vote and will vote in whichever way they choose. Anti english people will vote for Independence, anti- jewish, anti pakistani and anti -black people Like those in the SDL will vote for the union - i got very grubby finding that out!!!!

As for the SNP, I am not an SNP member but my husband is and believe you me if there was any suggestion of racist undertones he would walk - he has an english wife and three english stepsons who he loves very much for whom he is a wonderful stepfather.

Amusingly the most recent nastiness I have had personally came from a unionist who said that as I was English I shouldnt have an opinion on Scottish Independence and should keep my "English" mouth shut. Scotland he said should be part of the union and I should just go away and make my children's dinner and tidy up the house (expletives and insulting words removed lol)!!!!! Racist and sexist in one post - i thought he did rather well?

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I had not seen the Unionist stuff. My concern was to place The One's comment into context because he or she faced a lot of rage for something based on his/her own experience which I thought unjustified. Those people do exist and if I had met such then the impression that I would have formed would have been identical to The One's.

I am glad that you have not met them; it cannot be a pleasant experience.

As to the Nazi comments, I think the meaning was misunderstood.

WWW.jc-schools.net/ppt/propaganda.ppt

Why will this link not work???

Aha! if the whole thing is copied into the address bar, then a powerpoint downloads on the workings of propaganda and its techniques.

[rob murray]

John I would agree with you in terms of an "unsaid" agenda, peddled on the fringes not formally accepted by the mainstream party ( SNP ) yet allowed to fester away unchecked ie the building of an unofficial "folk community" united around some common basics that can be relyed on coje what may in a referendum ( pre supposes this minority actually would bother to vote lol lol ). Meanwhile the official party fights the strategic high ground in terms of the economy, as is, and their alterntaive vision...particulary the vision of "re building Scotlands manufacturing base ( appeals to nostalgia ) in "our" quest to be the Suadia Arabia of renewable energy. Salmon is a big game gambler and a giant amongst the pygmies of Scottish politics, however a cohereht campaign around :
1 Investment in Renewables hwo got what and how much
2 Actual jobs created from 1 above
3 Clearly defined growth trends from the industry themselves ( and not just from Salmom, or is part of the deal to allow speculative investment on the grounds that they the prevailking party control public access to this knowledge

Any rigourous examination of 1-3 above will hang Salmon out to dry, or have I missed the boom and expansion in renewables as affecting Caithness, and will people see through the smoke and mirrors by 2014, or will Salmons propoganda on "future" growth in re newables win the day ???

[squidge]

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I had not seen the Unionist stuff. My concern was to place The One's comment into context because he or she faced a lot of rage for something based on his/her own experience which I thought unjustified. Those people do exist and if I had met such then the impression that I would have formed would have been identical to The One's.

I am glad that you have not met them; it cannot be a pleasant experience.

Oh I have met them John..... I have met several people whose anti english stance was directed at me.... I worked with a couple of people who soon got told to keep their opinions to themselves. I have come across people expressing anti english sentiments since moving to Scotland in 1997 - not many, and not often. It isnt a pleasant experience but I know that they are a minority in society as well as in the Pro Independence campaign and so it didnt send me screaming back to Rochdale making sweeping and unjustified comments about those racist Scots. These people are not indicative of the sort of people you find in Scotland and nor are they indicative of the sorts of people you find in the independence movement.

[John Little]

Rob - clear analysis.

In the end, according to this- which seems realistic in all I have read- both Scotland and the rest of the UK will lose by a split.
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...-it-alone/6524

The oil is a puzzler though. A new Scotland could depend heavily on oil.

A fossil fuel.

[rob murray]

Oh I have met them John..... I have met several people whose anti english stance was directed at me.... I worked with a couple of people who soon got told to keep their opinions to themselves. I have come across people expressing anti english sentiments since moving to Scotland in 1997 - not many, and not often. It isnt a pleasant experience but I know that they are a minority in society as well as in the Pro Independence campaign and so it didnt send me screaming back to Rochdale making sweeping and unjustified comments about those racist Scots. These people are not indicative of the sort of people you find in Scotland and nor are they indicative of the sorts of people you find in the independence movement.

Yes this does go on, through a minority, and everyone knows it, buts as said above, are these the type of people who would actually vote ? or make a difference ?

[John Little]

it didnt send me screaming back to Rochdale making sweeping and unjustified comments about those racist Scots. These people are not indicative of the sort of people you find in Scotland and nor are they indicative of the sorts of people you find in the independence movement.

I have never suggested that they are indicative of the sort of people you find in Scotland. My experiences in Scotland are all pleasant.

But if I had met such, then perhaps my comments would not be unjustified?

Maybe even understandable?

[rob murray]

Forgot to mention the SNP are very organised as regards using blogging / public forums to promote their points / rebutt alternatives and general overall stirring,with the decline of print media this approach is inevitable but the SNIPS's seem very orgainsed and adapt at using on line media, an old "friend" of mine is an on line media facilitator ( on line propogandist ) and is paid to do this as part of his media work. Does anyone know the resources deployed by anti seperatist parties as a matter of interest ? ie how they are organised re promoting their cause ?

[squidge]

I have never suggested that they are indicative of the sort of people you find in Scotland. My experiences in Scotland are all pleasant.

But if I had met such, then perhaps my comments would not be unjustified?

Maybe even understandable?

Absolutely if that is ALL you have met...... if that is your ONLY experience. If that is theone's only experience then I am happy to have her or him over for dinner at our house or along to a party we are having so they can meet some new people, both pro and against independence and see how ordinary people are discussing the issues in their everyday life... you too if you like lol

[rob murray]

Rob - clear analysis.

In the end, according to this- which seems realistic in all I have read- both Scotland and the rest of the UK will lose by a split.
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...-it-alone/6524

The oil is a puzzler though. A new Scotland could depend heavily on oil.

A fossil fuel.

SNP economic policy, the key driving strategic objective is for Scotland to become a world leader in renewable energy," The Saudi Arabia of Renewables " source, Master A Salmon, standard grade economics : e grade, obviously implying that Oil through time will decline and so will related activities, hence the need for renewable resources ( kicking nuclear into touch ) and how we will lead the world. This is the achillies tendon of the SNIP's, at the moment, apart from the debates on wind towers, nothing really of any significance is moving re wave / tidal energy, and what is interesting is any movement is dominated by non UK companies, by definition non scottish companies, or do you count Kawasaki, Mitsui, Seimens as UK / Scottish companies. In my view the SNIPS are very exposed on the renewables debate and this exposure must be deployed by alternative parties as thew garden is not rosy oil or no oil !!!!

[John Little]

LOL! Were I up north then I would accept- I was in Governess last year. Always loved Governess when we visited when I was a kid. Had my first taste of mustard aged 7 in the station restaurant when waiting for the Thurso Flyer...

Who are 'ordinary people'?

'Ordinary people' to you are not necessarily 'ordinary people' in another context. I have no doubt that the folks at your house and in your discourse group would be nice and civilised.

I wonder if I'd meet the same types in a boozer in Cumbernauld?

[John Little]

@ Rob.

Yes.

Right on the button.

Mr Salmond talks as if England, Wales and Ireland had no wind, or water, or were incapable of investing in such.

I have never understood why England should have to buy renewable energy from Scotland when she has wind, water and a long coastline of her own, and money to invest.

And of course at least 10 new build nuclear power stations.

I have a sneaky feeling that someone may have to buy power - but it won't be England...


And anyway - is there not a loss of power in transmission south.... apropos of Dounreay?

[squidge]

Forgot to mention the SNP are very organised as regards using blogging / public forums to promote their points / rebutt alternatives and general overall stirring,with the decline of print media this approach is inevitable but the SNIPS's seem very orgainsed and adapt at using on line media, an old "friend" of mine is an on line media facilitator ( on line propogandist ) and is paid to do this as part of his media work. Does anyone know the resources deployed by anti seperatist parties as a matter of interest ? ie how they are organised re promoting their cause ?

The unionists do not seem to be that organised Rob. I moderate a couple of facebook pages and regularly blog. There are more cross party spaces appearing - Labour voters for Independence and Voters Alliance for Scottish Independence and the Women for Independence and Women for Scottish Independence groups to name a couple. I have had no indication that either the YES Campaign or the SNP are trying to drive any of the pages or blogs that I am involved in - in fact many are openly critical of the SNP itself. Whether tany of the other members are manipulating them on behalf of the SNP I wouldnt know but I dont see evidence of it.

AS for the unionists well you could have applied for this post http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/care...y_0112PSGE.pdf. The government is opening a new office in Scotland to "bring significant depth and colour to analysis on the benefits of the UK". So maybe things will improve....

[rob murray]

The unionists do not seem to be that organised Rob. I moderate a couple of facebook pages and regularly blog. There are more cross party spaces appearing - Labour voters for Independence and Voters Alliance for Scottish Independence and the Women for Independence and Women for Scottish Independence groups to name a couple. I have had no indication that either the YES Campaign or the SNP are trying to drive any of the pages or blogs that I am involved in - in fact many are openly critical of the SNP itself. Whether tany of the other members are manipulating them on behalf of the SNP I wouldnt know but I dont see evidence of it.

AS for the unionists well you could have applied for this post http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/care...y_0112PSGE.pdf. The government is opening a new office in Scotland to "bring significant depth and colour to analysis on the benefits of the UK". So maybe things will improve....

Nah not for me Im afraid, just shows how late in the day "they" are leaving things ! For the record my preferance is for a devo max model, ie more devolved economic powers to a Scotland still remaining in the UK, the ineptitude of the UK government with their one stick for all approach plays totally into the hands of the SNIPS !!!!

[squidge]

LOL! Were I up north then I would accept- I was in Inverness last year. Always loved Inverness when we visited when I was a kid. Had my first taste of mustard aged 7 in the station restaurant when waiting for the Thurso Flyer...

Who are 'ordinary people'?

'Ordinary people' to you are not necessarily 'ordinary people' in another context. I have no doubt that the folks at your house and in your discourse group would be nice and civilised.

I wonder if I'd meet the same types in a boozer in Cumbernauld?

A discourse group lol - they would just be my family and friends and they are just ordinary people - some a bit weird lol - reenactors, some working, some not. Some skilled and some unskilled - not many professionals though - no doctors, lawyers, social workers or accountants - Those I know dont live close enough to come for dinner although they tend to make the parties. Some young, some old. Builders, welders, students, single mums, young mums, old mums.IT people, a couple of managers, a couple of carers......Interestingly one or two from Cumbernauld..... I could even find a couple of uncivilised people for you if you like.

With reference to Cumbernauld,..... I replied to a post from ducati on here a while ago where he suggested that I would see more anti english sentiments in a pub in East kilbride..... at the point I replied on my iphone ( since lost sob) I was actually SITTING in a pub in East Kilbride having a discussion on Independence. We need to be wary of stereotypes accross both sides of the debate.