What is the SNP?

[Rheghead]

Just like you would dance with the devil if it assured Scotland was covered in wind turbines.We all know there is absolutely no reasoning with you
but you can never reason with hypocrites anyway.

No I've reasoned why there should be the right amount of wind turbines in the right places. But that is an anathema to those opposed to turbines. I put you in that category.

[squidge]

Worth a Read - the article and perhaps the book too.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2012/09...economic-case/

[Rheghead]

Worth a Read - the article and perhaps the book too.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2012/09...economic-case/

Read it and I keep getting the feeling that it was all about left wing, anti-nuclear political escapism. Instead of escapism why not change the beast from within?

[rob murray]

Read it and I keep getting the feeling that it was all about left wing, anti-nuclear political escapism. Instead of escapism why not change the beast from within?

Left wing ??

[Oddquine]

Read it and I keep getting the feeling that it was all about left wing, anti-nuclear political escapism. Instead of escapism why not change the beast from within?

Like making your partner go to a marriage counsellor with you to try and stave off their demanding a divorce to remove their participation in your failed marriage...and then spending your time with the counsellor denigrating them and aggrandising yourself as justification for continuing the status quo?

It takes two to tango, and there is no chance of changing anything if one of the parties involved has no wish to change themselves, their attitude, their outlook or their actions, but convince themselves that by going their partner will eventually give in. Hegemony, as a concept, exists as much in a controlling personal "partnership" as in a political one..and the only way to remedy the consequences of that in either case is to remove oneself from it, with or without the permission of the other partner. The courts will decide the division of debts/assets, neither party may be 100% satisfied..but they will be left in a position where they are no longer stuck in a marriage where they don't want to be and are able to make a kirk or a mill of their own life.

Those who think a beast can be changed from within are the ones living in cloud cuckoo land...those who know there is Buckley's chance of that, after years, nay centuries of trying, and now believe the only option is to remove themselves from the range of the beast's direct influence, are the realists. Though I can understand why those who are reasonably or very well off within the UK system, like the Politicians sitting in the UK Parliament, won't want to rock the boat of their own comfortable income and lifestyle...just in case they are worse off.

[John Little]

In consideration of a failure on the part of some correspondents to read what I have said, as evidenced on other posts in this forum, I refer them to post 5 here.

http://forum.caithness.org/showthrea...915#post972915

I can't be bothered to say it all again.

On the other hand the SNP does seem to prefer what I believe Mathematicians and Scientists call an iterative approach; that is to say that a process is repeated and repeated until you get the result you wish. So if the same stuff is repeated again and again you might persuade enough people that you are right.

I cannot subscribe to this because in this thread the SNP has signally failed to respond to some observations which seem important.

They keep asking what the Union has that is good?

I make a list - a month ago, in the link above, and it is ignored. Then a whole new thread materialises asking the same old question.

I identify them as Scots in residence, but not necessarily ethnically, and find that they are a group of disparate people who have come together in the hope of something better. They are therefore economic secessionists rather than true Nationalists. Do they refute this?

No.

I do not doubt that Scotland can do things on her own but pose the idea that a lot of what might be done would depend on oil. The SNP is against fossil fuels. So I find a certain hypocrisy in refusing to use coal but in basing free prescriptions, tuition etc on oil. One SNP supporter undertakes to ask his local MSP to clarify the party's position on fossil fuels.

I never hear anything back.

Considering this position and other policy pledges, and the number of times in their history when they have shifted their position, I ask if there are any points of principle on which the SNP is prepared to make a stand?

No response.

I label them a selfish party, using the UK's stupid constitution to their advantage, bringing a situation where perhaps 3 million people of varied backgrounds could break up the United Kingdom while the other 59 million have no choice but to watch helpless. This is a most convenient form of Democracy is it not?

Is it true what somebody told me- that 10% of the SNP membership is English?

And now I watch the demonisation of the UK.

Not so much the Tories, but the UK. It appears that Scotland gets a bad deal on roads and just about everything else from 'Westminster' 'London' 'Englandshire'. Not the UK government which has a certain number of Scots in it, but a faceless entity whose aim is to victimise Scots.

Never mind the complaints from Liverpool, Birmingham, Newcastle etc- Scotland gets a bad deal, so let's break up the UK- because we can.

And since they find nothing good to say about the UK, I have to ask myself yet another question about the SNP?

Are they enemies of the UK?


I reject your labels; I am not a "Unionist". The very attempt to label me as such brings into question the right of my country to exist.

I am British, and though of mostly Scots extraction I am English. I have no problem with that.

The SNP can keep its tribal labels for its own convenience. And 'Brit' is no bad name either.

[John Little]

As I have been caught bang to rights, I have to hold up my hand. It's a fair cop guvnor.

I really am a troll. I am also SiS- but the biggest quirk of all is that I am Oddquine too.

And if the Fernies don't mind I am quite prepared to be one of them too...


I don't suppose that will fool MI5 when GCHQ forwards this to them, but it does make you wonder who is who don't it?

Are MI5 monitoring this forum?

Well let's put it this way - with a nuclear waste facility in the county and Vulcan as well, if they did not monitor the local forum they would be stupid, incompetent and not doing a proper job.

Just think all you SNP types - one of the big disadvantages of independence - you'd never, as a foreign national, be able to use the Freedom of Information act to get your MI5 file to see what those nice spooks were saying about you...

[ducati]

Are MI5 monitoring this forum?

Of course I am

[John Little]

Of course I am

Why then it is undoubtedly your job to keep an eye on all potential enemies of the United Kingdom. The sort of people who would band together in hopes of gain, to subvert the British government and bring about its overthrow.

You must do a good job now!

[Fidelis]

I for one am guilty as charged , I havent answered all your points one by one! . I will try to set aside time to do so , although others are better able to , and probably will. Just briefly, in passing , why is Scottish a "tribal " name? What a strange idea! Isnt it nice though that you feel so strongly about our affairs that you spend so much time talking about them!

[ducati]

Why then it is undoubtedly your job to keep an eye on all potential enemies of the United Kingdom. The sort of people who would band together in hopes of gain, to subvert the British government and bring about its overthrow.

You must do a good job now!

Don't worry, we are on the case.

[pmcd]

As the Great (and welcome back!) John Little has more or less pronounced, as far as clarity on the actual issues of Independence is concerned, in the words of Yul Brynner in "The King and I" - "it is a puzzlement." I too have noticed that the SNP latterly seeks to demonise "Westminster" and "The UK", where before they restricted their bile to "the Tories". A word to the wise, and also the Baboon of Brigadoon: if you want to keep the Monarchy, be regulated by the Bank of England and align yourself to sterling, its time to put away the red bottom and use a) brain, b) common sense and finally c) mouth in articulating reasonable requests from the huge majority in whose ultimate power it will lie to ensure the success or failure of your Independence project. Calling the potential Gift Horse a vicious spavined mare ain't going to work!

And if your alternate plan is to embrace full membership of the European Community, then "Independence" will certainly have a hollow ring to it. And even if Europe says OK to a secessionist Scotland, then beware what happens next. (See Ireland). First, you are called a recipient state, and receive huge subsidies until you're hooked on them. "The Celtic Tiger" period of boom and investment. Then they let you fly, knowing you'll crash and burn. Then they "rescue" you, with a forced vote or a "protection" loan worthy of a Mafia gangster. And then you can kiss the last vestige of Independence goodbye -

Those days are gone now
And Old Westminster is just a wee pain
With tears in our eyes now
We've learnt to lose more than we gain
We stood against him
Rumpuy's paper army,
Which sent us all barmy
And skint again"

[John Little]

I for one am guilty as charged , I havent answered all your points one by one! . I will try to set aside time to do so , although others are better able to , and probably will. Just briefly, in passing , why is Scottish a "tribal " name? What a strange idea! Isnt it nice though that you feel so strongly about our affairs that you spend so much time talking about them!

By 'tribal' I was referring more to 'Unionist' as opposed to anti- Unionist. Those two labels set up a debate which bring the future of my country into question. By rejecting Unionist I assert my right to be unquestionably 'British' in which no sub divisions are necessary for defining nationality. If one wishes to subdivide into component nationalities then that's a matter of individual choice, though inter-marriage and mobility and multi-culturalism have rendered it rather undefinable in any real sense.

'Our affairs'.

So it's your affairs. Not mine.

I am supposed not to mind the break up of my country? It's not 'my affair'.

Well that told me.


I suppose it's not any affair of the 750,000 Scots living in England either?
Or the hundreds of thousands who live and work abroad?

They don't get a vote either in 2014. Sorry Pal - should have stayed at home.

Pretty exclusive club you have there.

The 'British' can go take a long walk off a short pier it seems - no need to consult them.

[squidge]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh John is back - hello John Glad to see you!

Too many threads with too many questions to answer - you can lose all day in these threads - mired in negativity and confrontation - and so I am avoiding lengthy answers - I nearly replied to Weezers the other day and then I decided to take my daughter to the park instead - it was much more fun.

These are some of the other things I have been doing

I have a medieval banquet to organise

I have a job interview to prep for ( keep your fingers crossed folks)

I have a husband to support whilst he is struggling with something important just now

I have spent a week looking for a new car after the head gasket went on ours - got one thank god

I have articles and stories to write (and get paid for whoo hoooo)

I have dinner to cook

I have the school run to do

I have children to raise

I have the shopping cooking cleaning washing to do

I have listening to do

I have my mum and dad arriving soon so I have to clean the oven amongst other things that only get done when my mum is coming

I have to go into school to teach the kids about medieval scotland

I have coffee to have with lovely wonderful and positive people.

And so I have no time for aggression, negativity and curmudgeonly behaviour - my own as well as that of others It was making me grumpy and irritated. I will only reply to stuff I have the time and the inclination for. I might reply to stuff that is directed at me personally but Im not going to promise because I have no intention of losing myself any more in these endless threads.

Glad you're back though.

[Corrie 3]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh John is back - hello John Glad to see you!

Too many threads with too many questions to answer - you can lose all day in these threads - mired in negativity and confrontation - and so I am avoiding lengthy answers - I nearly replied to Weezers the other day and then I decided to take my daughter to the park instead - it was much more fun.

These are some of the other things I have been doing

I have a medieval banquet to organise

I have a job interview to prep for ( keep your fingers crossed folks)

I have a husband to support whilst he is struggling with something important just now

I have spent a week looking for a new car after the head gasket went on ours - got one thank god

I have articles and stories to write (and get paid for whoo hoooo)

I have dinner to cook

I have the school run to do

I have children to raise

I have the shopping cooking cleaning washing to do

I have listening to do

I have my mum and dad arriving soon so I have to clean the oven amongst other things that only get done when my mum is coming

I have to go into school to teach the kids about medieval scotland

I have coffee to have with lovely wonderful and positive people.

And so I have no time for aggression, negativity and curmudgeonly behaviour - my own as well as that of others It was making me grumpy and irritated. I will only reply to stuff I have the time and the inclination for. I might reply to stuff that is directed at me personally but Im not going to promise because I have no intention of losing myself any more in these endless threads.

Glad you're back though.

Mornings are quite busy for you then Squidge? How do you fill the rest of your day?

C3.........(Gets tin hat on)!!! Lol.

[squidge]

Lol Corrie

Afternoons are for knitting and learning to crochet Corrie - socks, scarves and blankets for Christmas presents.

[John Little]

Thank you for the welcome back; an Org break was necessary for me - we all have busy lives as you so ably demonstrate.

I am glad that you are so busy and even more so that you get paid for your writing - I wish that I did- but what I am writing is unlikely to pay anything- I'll be happy as Larry if someone prints it. We shall see.

But I'm glad you cue me in to clear my mind of a few thoughts before, being old, I go to bed and soon.



The SNP, it appears, is an exclusive outfit because if you live in the UK, but not in Scotland, the policy of breaking up the UK is none of your business.

They are quite happy to tell you so.

It is a matter purely for “Scots” – that is to say Scots as defined by the SNP, which is all and sundry who happen to live there- Martians included and funnily enough, English.

If you are Scots by blood, birth, descent and 100 generations and do not live there, then tough luck.- you also do not get a say in the breaking of Britain.

What this means, in effect, is that the SNP is a Residents’ Association rather than a party- a superior one though – the sort found on a nice estate. Its members seek to improve their neighbourhood.

Another organisation it may be compared to is a trades union.

Trades unions are open to all and voting rights within them are defined ; in this case the voters are the residents of Scotland of all races, creeds, beliefs and origins. They exist, not to promote the good of all society, but of their members and on their behalf they are prepared to employ a number of techniques- in propaganda, politics, economics etc, but like all Guild Socialists they gain at the expense of someone. In this case the country commonly referred to as ‘Britain’.

The trade is ‘being a Scot’. Anyone of any nationality can become a Scot by moving there and staying long enough to go on the voter register.

It has one defining ideological tenet – which is Independence from the UK, although, in keeping with the rest of its shifting principles, it seems prepared to accept devo-max instead. They purport then, to be a single-interest party, but are prepared to compromise on that as well.

Once independence is achieved, then the SNP will, according to some of its members, break up into its constituent groups and form different parties.

As to what happens after Independence, a delightfully rose-tinted fluffy cloud of semi promises, good intentions and earnest hopes seems to be the order of the day.

Well here’s a fine set of premises on which to base the break-up of this great nation.

Sweet dreams.

[Rheghead]

I have dinner to cook

I have the school run to do

I have children to raise

I have the shopping cooking cleaning washing to do
.

I think you need to prioritise.

[squidge]

I think you need to prioritise.

You'll notice sleep isnt in there either - maybe just maybe its in no particular order lol......

[John Little]

Well Squidge - here's a few more musings;

I really am grateful to Fidelis for implying that the upcoming referendum on Independence was not my affair, because it concentrated my mind wonderfully.

Because I am English – is it my affair?

That’s probably the knee jerk reaction of many English people to the news that ‘the Scots’ are going to have a referendum on Independence.

But it got me to thinking – Why might it be my affair?

Why don’t I just butt out and leave “the Scots” to sort it out? Why argue at all, let alone on this forum?


Then it struck me that actually the SNP have set all the terms of reference so far and the definitions of what is actually happening are their definitions.

So when is a referendum on Scottish independence not a referendum on Scottish independence?

Answer; - when it’s ‘Scottish’ only within one definition, and when it’s really about the break-up of the United Kingdom.


I was chided the other day for referring to the ‘Scottish Nationalist Party’ when it’s actually the Scottish National Party. That missing ‘ist’ is very very very important.

You see if the ‘ist’ was in there, then it would be a party for Scots and would have all sorts of nasty right wing connotations. But without the ‘ist’ it can be a party for everyone who lives in Scotland, no matter from where.

So a notional Mr Tadeusz Mazursky from Crakow, EU citizen, with the right to vote in the UK, resident in Scotland and on the voting register, can cast a vote for ‘Scottish Independence’, which is really a vote to destroy the United Kingdom.

And I can’t.

Citizen of the UK, subject of HM Queen, genetically Celtic, born here, lived in 3 of the 4 nations – and I don’t get a say in the break up of the UK.

It’s not my affair.

Funny old world.

But the biggest and most cynical laugh of all must be reserved for the plight of the expatriate and ethnic Scots. There’s this chap called Wallace who has a group on Facebook ‘Let Wallace vote this time’. He’s travelling at the moment, and when he gets home he wants to spend a few years in London – and then go back to Scotland. He’d also like a say in the referendum but he can’t.

Because that term of reference has also been set by the SNP – residents only.
(apparently there’s a lot of SNP supporters very uneasy about this, but the leadership won’t budge.) Apparently Mr Wallace can vote in UK elections by postal vote – but not in the referendum; he wants a say in the future of his nation but the SNP has decided not.

Never mind – I’m sure that Mr Mazursky will do right by him.

850,000 expatriate and ethnic Scots don’t really matter – do they?
Why should they get a say in the future of Scotland. They don’t live there.

The people of Scotland (term of reference decided by SNP) will decide; Scots or nots.


You see it ain’t really about ‘Scots’

It’s about numbers.

It does not matter who votes for independence, just so long as they do - not a lot to do with ‘Scots’ at all really.

Not ‘Nationalism’ but Secession.

In the last 5 years alone 312,000 people have immigrated to Scotland from the EU alone.

I have this crazy scenario in my head where ‘Scots’ are split down the middle over independence and the United Kingdom breaks up because of the votes of people not born there.

Couldn’t happen – could it?

And if it did – would it be right?



The best thing I have ever seen on this was Rob Murray’s ideas on devo-max to the regions.

I’d go for that because I get to stay British – but England gets to have its own parliament too, and the UK should be run by a council for the UK with the four nations contributing proportionately.