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Thread: What is the SNP?

  1. #1
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    Default What is the SNP?

    I could post this on another thread but I have sworn not to, so must start another.

    I keep reading a lot of stuff about the SNP and what it offers, and after my last thread about Independence I have been doing a lot of thinking.

    The arguments go this way and that over Scottish independence, but a lot of it is not all that relevant to the actual principle of the thing.

    Scotland could go it alone.

    There is no doubt on that score.

    There would be adjustments, but it’s clear that a lot of Scottish prosperity, should they wish to continue with the same services they enjoy now, would depend on oil.

    Howsoever, that is not the point either.

    I have been born and brought up in a country called the UK.

    As a citizen of the UK and of largely Scots descent, I’d be happier about this whole thing if the Scottish Nationalist Party changed its name.

    Why?

    Because it gives the wrong sense of what they are about.

    Firstly, it is ‘Scottish’ only in that it based in Scotland. To qualify to vote in its referendum you only have to be resident in Scotland. So it’s a polyglot and multi-cultural organization, and not based on ‘nationality’ in any ethnic sense. Yet it taps into this ethnicity as well, appealing to an historic sense of grievance going back hundreds of years (despite the fact that it appears that many of its members do not have roots in Scotland that far back.)

    So it tries to be both Scottish and ‘Nationalist’ – yet cannot define itself in the sense of nationality because many native born Scots living outside Scotland will have no say in the upcoming referendum.

    Secondly, it is ‘Nationalist’ only in the sense of residency, and not of race. If it were of race, then it would run the danger of being tagged as being right wing and obsessed with ethnicity as its defining characteristic.

    Yet among its most vocal supporters are people who are not of Scots descent; which is amazingly PC but leads to an examination of what they are about.

    The thesis seems to be that “Scots” (by which they mean residents of Scotland) are currently living in some sort of condition which would be improved, of Scotland were independent. A Utopian vision of how things might be is dangled in front of people who are invited to don rosy specs and accept this offering as unquestionable truth. Recent posts on the Org have spoken of redistribution of wealth and land which are straight out of Marx. I wonder what the right wing of the SNP make of that?

    It seems that the SNP offer something to everyone – and they might well deliver, if the oil price holds up.

    Thirdly, is the SNP a party- or is it really two?

    It is hard to deny the gut appeal of genuine Scottish Nationalists- for they have a case. The yearning to be a nation once again, running one’s own affairs from Edinburgh, sovereign and independent – I can relate to that and as a native born Scot then it would have a lot of romantic and emotional appeal to me. Geographically the case is not so good. Inverness might be 600 miles from ‘Westminster’ but Los Angeles is 3000 miles from Washington and it does not seem to bother them all that much.

    But that’s not the main thrust of the case being made by the SNP. The main thrust is economic and that’s not a Nationalist argument – it’s a Secessionist one.

    The main thrust invites people to vote for a better future, better roads (which must have been much better before 1707) etc etc etc.

    In other words, for economic advantage.

    Economic advantage over the rest of us UK citizens and over what exists now in Scotland... maybe.

    The message seems to be ‘We don’t like things as they are, so we want to build a nice new estate with gates to keep out the hoi-polloi and do things our way. The current elite are not doing it right – so let’s have our own elite.


    So – “Scottish Nationalist Party” seems a misnomer to me. If economics are the main reason for breaking up the UK, for a section of Britain to gain advantage at the expense of others, then that is not quite so laudable as appears.

    It could even be seen as divisive, elitist and parochial.

    Or selfish.


    I would like to see what the SNP wants, rolled out across the whole of the UK. We all want better services, roads, schools etc but for a group to set up to break away from Britain on economic grounds implies that Cornwall, Yorkshire and other areas of the UK which might be economically viable, could do the same- and to me that makes little sense. Cornwall has its own flag, language and culture so it’s not impossible.

    These things have nothing to do with Nationality.

    They have to do with Class. The Haves and the Have -nots.

    And it is not solely a Scottish concern but affects the whole UK. Not a reason to break up the UK, but to change the UK.


    Which is why, for the first time in my life, I will be voting Labour next time round- because the UK deserves a better future than the Lib-Dems or the Tories can offer.

    And I would rather not see my country, Great Britain and Northern Ireland, broken up.
    D'oH! My brain hurts...

  2. #2
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    Interesting post John. I've just been rubbing shoulders with some English people and as soon as they find out where I live (and I'm obviously not Scots as you know) I get aggrieved semi-banter about independence and the SNP. The overwhelming feeling I come away with is of bitterness about the whole thing.

    I can imagine a reverse scenario, where post independence (hypothetically cos I don't think it will happen) the rest of the UK will carry a grudge for the next 300 years. But joking aside, Scotland will be in a very difficult situation if the rest of the UK is not minded to be very accommodating and co-operative, certainly in the early years. And it is allegedly the voters that tell the government what to do and if they aint happy.........

  3. #3

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    I think the SNP are playing Russian Roulette with Scotland, the whole issue of Independence is as clear as mud.
    I have heard that some businesses that have considered coming to Scotland are postponing plans until the Independence issue is resolved. Ok I will accept that the current economic situation probably has a hand in this as well. Even though companies not willing to invest in Scotland because of the uncertainty of the Independence vote is not a good thing.
    I am not saying that the SNP are all bad or that all the policies are totally wrong, as with every barrel of apples there will be a few bad ones.
    On the issue of Independence, I feel that the SNP could do more harm than good.

  4. #4
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    I think the SNP are a fundamentally racist, with a hatred of either England or the English which knows no bounds.

    Through personal experience I know that is certainly the case with some of their members.

    The Nazi's hid behind a veil of political free speech and by playing on the heart strings of their people. The SNP do the same.
    Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; Nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.

    - Charles de Gaulle

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    Im shocked by that comment theone - I have been around and about SNP members for several years now and I do not believe that is true of the party - it may be true of individual members but I believe that they are few in numbers and not representative of the party as a whole.

    Look around you – wherever you are just now, whether you are minded to be a yes voter or a no voter, look at those people who are Scottish Nationalists. Look at the people you work with, the people you live with, stand at the school gates with, the people you serve in a shop, restaurant or pub. Are they English or Scottish or from somewhere else? Does it matter? Do they care where you are from? I doubt it. Interested in your life and your story they may be… Plotting your imminent demise or some wicked racist atrocity, they are probably not. I never heard the saying “All Jock Tamson’s bairns” until I came to Scotland but there is a feeling in Scotland that you can be here and be Scots whether you are from here or elsewhere. Many, many people with Scottish parents or ancestors delight in their Scottishness. Most people coming to live here in Scotland from England or elsewhere feel at home, like this is their “place” and when asked where they are from will happily correct the assumption that they are from England with “ No I’m from Scotland”.

    theone your Scotland may be a land full of English hating Nationalist bigots and those who would turn on their neighbours and friends but mine and most other people’s Scotland isn’t. When you walk the streets a wee bit, drink in the pubs a wee bit, drop in at some toddler groups or youth clubs or workplaces I will happily bet that you would find many of “Jock Tamson’s bairns” happily playing, living and working together. The referendum is not going to change that.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by theone View Post
    I think the SNP are a fundamentally racist, with a hatred of either England or the English which knows no bounds.
    If the SNP were a racist party I doubt they would let anyone into the party who hasn't got full blown Scottish roots! Anyone is allowed to join the SNP whether you are brown, black, yellow, red or white in skin colour and no one is turned away purely on the fact of where they were born or where they come from.
    John ask's what is the SNP, the SNP is a political party which is giving the the voters of Scotland a chance to get away from the mainstream parties which have got the stranglehold of power in the UK. How many people are fed up of power jumping from Labour to Tory and then back again? The SNP gives us a choice to get away from the main three parties, if you are happy having Labour and Tory rule swapping every few years then dont vote for the SNP, at the end of the day it's your choice.

    C3..............

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by theone View Post
    I think the SNP are a fundamentally racist, with a hatred of either England or the English which knows no bounds.

    Through personal experience I know that is certainly the case with some of their members.

    The Nazi's hid behind a veil of political free speech and by playing on the heart strings of their people. The SNP do the same.
    What utter rubbish. I have voted SNP, I want Independence, and I was born in England with an English mother. I have 2 daughters, 2 step sons and 8 grandchildren. All of my kids were born in England. I am married to a Lancashire lass. How could I be said to be racist against the English?

    I find your views offensive, bring the Nazi's into it. You do not have a grasp of what happened in Germany in the 30's & 40's then. I suggest you go away and find out before posting any more rubbish like this.

    Secondly, Independence & supporting the SNP are not the same thing. Independence supporters are in all of the parties, Labour, LibDem's, Greens, Tory, etc. Once Independence happens who is to say which party/parties will be voted into power.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by squidge View Post
    Im shocked by that comment theone - I have been around and about SNP members for several years now and I do not believe that is true of the party - it may be true of individual members but I believe that they are few in numbers and not representative of the party as a whole.
    Maybe Squidge, and I know it would be foolish to think all members are the same, but I do have personal experience of one member who I know very well and their friends, and that is the experience I have of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by squidge View Post
    Look around you – wherever you are just now, whether you are minded to be a yes voter or a no voter, look at those people who are Scottish Nationalists.
    Just to clarify, I am not speaking about people who want independence, or even for people who vote for the party. I am speaking about my personal experience of people within the party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corrie 3 View Post
    The SNP gives us a choice to get away from the main three parties, if you are happy having Labour and Tory rule swapping every few years then dont vote for the SNP, at the end of the day it's your choice.
    Of course. And believe it or not I do agree with many of their policies. Others must too or they wouldn't be in power! I just do not agree with their no.1 policy, their no.1 priority.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerry4 View Post
    What utter rubbish. I have voted SNP, I want Independence, and I was born in England with an English mother. I have 2 daughters, 2 step sons and 8 grandchildren. All of my kids were born in England. I am married to a Lancashire lass. How could I be said to be racist against the English?
    As above, I'm not speaking about people who vote SNP, I was speaking about the party and my experience of its members.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerry4 View Post
    I find your views offensive, bring the Nazi's into it. You do not have a grasp of what happened in Germany in the 30's & 40's then. I suggest you go away and find out before posting any more rubbish like this.
    You must be easily offended.

    You have know idea of my knowledge of what happened in Germany. One way the Nazi's gained support was by highlighting how the people were being oppressed and could be better off. If you can't see a similarity there, then you are blind.

    And before you get offended again, I am speaking about the political methods, not viewpoints.


    Quote Originally Posted by gerry4 View Post
    Secondly, Independence & supporting the SNP are not the same thing. Independence supporters are in all of the parties, Labour, LibDem's, Greens, Tory, etc. Once Independence happens who is to say which party/parties will be voted into power.
    Of course.

    But Labour/Liberal and the Tories do no want independence. They do not think it is in our best interests. Yes, they could be voted into power in an independent Scotland, but that is, in effect, putting a party into power with one hand tied behind its back.

    I don't doubt many members of the SNP would happily disappear from politics once their fundamental goal, the "one way street" of independence was granted. Leaving the whole population to suffer the consequences.
    Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; Nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.

    - Charles de Gaulle

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    Quote Originally Posted by theone View Post
    The Nazi's hid behind a veil of political free speech and by playing on the heart strings of their people. The SNP do the same.
    Now you come to mention it, I somehow remember the Nazis did actually include into their ranks all sorts of races, nationalities and creeds whether they be German, Ukrainian, Slavs and muslims. They fed into their multiculturalism in order to unite against certain undesirable ethnic types. In time, I have no doubt these would have gone the same way as the undesirables once they had solidified their grip on world power.
    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.

  10. #10
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    Default What is the SNP?

    Well John, we all would like you to “be happier about this whole thing,” so please tell us what you would like the SNP to change its name to? By the way, I thought it was called the Scottish National Party. I wonder if you are trying to make some points by your use of the terms “Nationalist” and “Secessionist,” and I am just too thick to get it. In the case of the latter, are you suggesting something illegal is going on?

    I see no problem with the referendum on Scottish independence being voted on only be residents of Scotland, as it comprises people who were born there and have chosen to stay, AND people who have chosen to move there. Although there may be arguments for allowing people of Scottish ancestry living abroad to vote, I could see such becoming very complicated to administer fairly.

    On the question of whether or not it is a single party, again I don’t see the problem. Once the primary objective of independence is achieved, I would not be surprised if it dissolves into a variety of other parties.

    I understand what seems to be your discomfort at the potential break-up of the UK. I felt a similar discomfort at the thought of the break-up of Canada, because (a) a separate Quebec would have cut off the provinces of Atlantic Canada from the rest of the country and (b) there are significant pockets of French-speaking people in every province, where I feared a backlash effect. However, the history of Scotland as a separate country does not compare to the presence of the French in Canada.

    Where I must disagree with you is in your assertion that “The main thrust is economic.“ In fact, you may already have an inkling of the real reasons.

    You say that you are “of largely Scots descent.” You would not say such a thing unless it conjured up some feeling, some meaning for you, which may be difficult to put into words.

    Secondly, from what I remember of elections many years ago, England and Wales were predominantly conservative, and Scotland was predominantly NOT conservative. The will of the Scottish electorate was often swamped numerically. Scotland has always seemed to me to be politically much closer to Scandinavia - something Northern perhaps. You may have tapped into that way of thinking by telling us that you will vote Labour next time.

    Why not establish a Scottish residence for just long enough to allow you to vote for independence? You will always be welcomed there.

  11. #11
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    I think I would prefer something like 'The Secessionist Party of Scotland' which would be honest; because that is what it is.

    If it is not defined by race or ethnicity but by the prospect of getting a better life - economic advantage- then its aims are exactly that. Economic.

    I have not said anything about it being illegal - plainly it is not- but I say again,- I live in the UK.

    If a sectional group wishes to break away from the UK for economic reasons, feeling that they can do better on their own, then I do not see that as Nationalist. How you can disagree that the SNP's main thrust is on the prospect of the economic advantages of independence, I do not know- a cursory glance at just about any discussion on independence would show you that.

    So, a group, not defined by nationality or ethnicity wishes to secede from the UK.

    For what they can get that is better.


    I'd be happier if they dropped the pretence of Nationalism and just said - 'Hey guys - we have a real chance to grab loads of goodies for ourselves- so let's go for it.

    Do it for freedom, for your history, for grievance, for oppression, for the right of Scots (whatever they are) to rule Scots - fine, You are a nationalist and the economics of it do not matter. I can dig that,

    But do it to get a better life than the majority of the rest of the schmucks in the UK and you are just trying to get a better share of the pie for yourself.

    So the 'Selfish Party' (which is a nickname for the Tories here) would be more accurate.

    Independence is largely being sold on the strength of more pie.


    And they dress it up as Nationalism..
    D'oH! My brain hurts...

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    Ouch, my head hurts after reading all of that. I did learn something new. I am not a citizen of GB (including England & Scotland). I have traveled through both countries and worked a spell at Thurso designing and installing a satellite communications system. I had a preferance for the highlands of Scotland due to the fact that's where I spent most of my time. I will not get envolved with the political scene because it is none of my business. However, I will express my fondness for the Scottish & English people due to the fact that my country served with the countries of GB during that great war of WW2 of which I was a part.

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    theone, Your comments about the nazi,s is both offencive and ignroant, I suggest you educate yourself .
    Quote Originally Posted by theone View Post
    I think the SNP are a fundamentally racist, with a hatred of either England or the English which knows no bounds.

    Through personal experience I know that is certainly the case with some of their members.

    The Nazi's hid behind a veil of political free speech and by playing on the heart strings of their people. The SNP do the same.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by piratelassie View Post
    theone, Your comments about the nazi,s is both offencive and ignroant, I suggest you educate yourself .
    I can,t imagine how anybody could be offended by making derogatory comments about the Nazi's, weren't they the most evil political party in history. After all we did not gas our Jews in Britain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by piratelassie View Post
    theone, Your comments about the nazi,s is both offencive and ignroant, I suggest you educate yourself .
    Let's learn how to spell offensive and ignorant before we speak about education.

    Do you see what I did there?
    Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; Nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.

    - Charles de Gaulle

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    Quote Originally Posted by theone View Post
    Let's learn how to spell offensive and ignorant before we speak about education.

    Do you see what I did there?
    Yep....I saw what you did........engaged in your usual supercilious and ignorant (and somewhat trolling) attitude. But is that not what we are learning to expect now from Unionists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oddquine View Post
    But is that not what we are learning to expect now from Unionists.
    It would appear that way, none more so than the ones on the .Org.
    I never thought the day would come when I would have to put a Member on "Ignore" but because of the bitterness, backbiting, name calling and persecution I reluctantly have had to do so.
    I refuse to be drawn into a situation where I get suspended ever again so "Ignore" seems to be the best way forward. No doubt this post will draw a snide reply from said member.

    C3.................

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oddquine View Post
    Yep....I saw what you did........engaged in your usual supercilious and ignorant (and somewhat trolling) attitude. But is that not what we are learning to expect now from Unionists.
    There has to be an irony there.
    Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; Nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.

    - Charles de Gaulle

  19. #19
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    It’s an interesting knee jerk reaction that people get when they mention the N word.

    A red mist comes over folk's eyes and they lash out, outraged, overcome with righteous indignation and they tower in wrath to smite the rash and cowering wretch that dared to even imply that they might share any characteristics at all with the hated N’s.

    Articulate, educated and intelligent members of the SNP must be terminally embarrassed away from some of what is freely available on the internet. Despite constant denials, and the disciplining of dissidents who make homophobic remarks the comments that you come across quite a lot show quite a lot of ill feeling towards England.

    It would be unwise to link to some of them of course because I would get banned, but anyone wishing to go to Youtube and search for “Independence for Scotland” who wishes to browse the comments underneath could see a few for themselves. On Facebook there’s a page for a Scot burning an English flag; that's on Youtube too.

    The SNP may wish to move the hem of their garment away, but those things are still there.

    Saying that it ain’t there don’t make it so.


    Now as to the Nazis.

    In the study of Propaganda the Nazis are quite fascinating, because they were very effective.
    From having 12 members of the German Parliament in 1928, they had over 260 by 1933. This was achieved largely by Propaganda, so any party with a publicity department worth its salt would do well to study how they did this.

    I won’t strain your patience by developing this, but if I were in charge of raising public awareness for the Tories, Lib-Dems or Labour, then I would study the Nazis and would be delighted if I could copy their success in Propaganda methods.

    At least one supporter of Scottish Independence is using one of their most blatant methods.

    http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman...ommentsSection


    Scroll down to the bottom - click on just about any page...
    D'oH! My brain hurts...

  20. #20
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    There is something that puzzles me.

    Perhaps an SNP supporter can clear something up for me?

    The SNP is committed to renewables and reducing carbon emissions as well as being anti-nuclear. So they fully support loads and loads of windmills being built all over the place.

    Naturally, although Scotland sits on 600 years worth of coal, the SNP would not be in favour of developing that, because it is a polluting energy source.

    The SNP is thus impeccably Green.

    But how does that square with the position that it's Scotland's oil and that most of the UK's oil revenues would go to Scotland after independence?

    Isn't oil a fossil fuel, gives off a lot of pollution and rich in greenhouse gases?

    Why is one dirty pollutant a rich resource to be developed whilst another, very similar, is to be shunned and not used?
    D'oH! My brain hurts...

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