1K.Orger
A certain irony here. Two Scots, one first generation Scot and a numpty.Originally Posted by Corrie 3
A perfect way of describing Cameron, Clegg, Brown or Blair !!!Time to give someone else a chance methinks !!C3...........
And the solution - to break the Union.
D'oH! My brain hurts...
1K.Orger
Game set and match eh! None of the aforementioned have trumpeted the renewables case based on out and out lies and sheer exaggerations conning the population on what has to be the big con of the 21st century. Or are you arguing on gthe grounds of meet the new boss same as the old boss...we wont get foled again.A perfect way of describing Cameron, Clegg, Brown or Blair !!!
Time to give someone else a chance methinks !!
C3...........
1K.Orger
It is obvious to me that your love for the rabid Scottish Nationist otherwise known as the Bruce has unduly affected your better judgement. Me on the otherhand is also married to a rabid Nat but I have maintained my intellectual independence without succumbing to the constant propaganda.
I can hold up my English head without shame.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
1K.Orger
Uk wise, the coalition is fragmenting, tories way behind in the polls, LD's totally marginalised with abject poll ratings, labour making steady ground with reasoned alternative economic contingencies. If the LD's vote against boundary changes ( basically being rigged against Labour ) then as things stand, unless there is an economic miracle Labour may win the next general election. So Ive no experience of Labour, as is now, the Cameron, Clegg, Brown or Blair arguement doesnt apply. I am a Devolutionist , devolve agreed economic power in terms of taxtation / revenue management to a devolved "parliament" which remain in the UK. The ecomony is run on the basis of whats good for the London metropolis is good for the UK, its not and never was. However in Scotland we need proprer regional representation as the needs of the Highlands differ vastly than that of Strathclyde, so devoled economic powers based on regionalistion but contained within the UK works....seperatism.... no not in a million years.....
1K.Orger
So what do you suggest for the people of Scotland Rob?
I have spent my entire (long) life being ruled by either Labour and then Tory and then back to Labour. I am absolutely sick of it as one blames the other and then punishes the ordinary man in the street.
The results of the last Scottish elections prove that I am not alone in this thinking so if as you say we should give the SNP a wide berth then who should I vote for?
C3............
1K.Orger
Sane, measured, logical and democratic: preserves the best, minimises the worst and has bright promise for all regions of the UK.
The SNP has enough of a head of steam to achieve this for all, and if they did, then they would benefit the whole Union.
D'oH! My brain hurts...
1K.Orger
Ok you get independence then what you still have is a party system, say the SNP are found out big time, then who will people vote for...Scottish Labour if you go by the polls. Then we could be faced in an independant Scotland with SNP / Labour / SNP labour. I know its been since 1945 labour / tory / labour / tory / labour etc but that proves we really have a two party system under current election criteria, real change could come from proportional representation. The last Scottish election was a water shed no doubt about that, and why....the number 2 party Labour fought an election on the past...SNP presented a bright brave new alternative which people bought into big time, but dont assume that that was a confidence vote to pursue seperatism...more a large protest vote against Labour / LD. Time will out the SNP's brave new world, its built on sand, thats really why we are the Saudi Arabia of Renewables. The number one rational of the SNP is independence then what....we would revert to a two party system !!!So what do you suggest for the people of Scotland Rob?
I have spent my entire (long) life being ruled by either Labour and then Tory and then back to Labour. I am absolutely sick of it as one blames the other and then punishes the ordinary man in the street.
The results of the last Scottish elections prove that I am not alone in this thinking so if as you say we should give the SNP a wide berth then who should I vote for?
C3............
Last edited by rob murray; 16-Aug-12 at 11:05.
1K.Orger
I too share your frustration of British politics regarding the tooing and froing characteristic of the nation's choice. But I've come to the conclusion that we actually need this sort of swing from the left to the right. I like to use the analogy of a footballer who dribbles a ball from one length of the field to the other. The ball is the British economy/society, the footballer is the British people, the right and left boot are the main political parties or left/right wing aspects of politics. If we need to kick the ball in a straight line then we need to kick with both feet and both feet need to kick with the same strength to cancel eachother out.I have spent my entire (long) life being ruled by either Labour and then Tory and then back to Labour. I am absolutely sick of it as one blames the other and then punishes the ordinary man in the street.
The results of the last Scottish elections prove that I am not alone in this thinking so if as you say we should give the SNP a wide berth then who should I vote for?
C3............
The problem is that Labour and the tories are both moving to the right
Last edited by Rheghead; 16-Aug-12 at 11:18.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
1K.Orger
So rheghead thus far you have accused me of being deceitful, underhand, confused, half-hearted, over committed and romantic...
You have yet offered me no serious arguments, you simply make personal and judgemental comments about me and here we have yet another dismissal of me as a stupid woman blinded by love and unable to make my own mind up.
Rob I will decide on Independence on what is important to ME - you make your mind up on what is important to you.... If that is renewables then that is up to you. To suggest that I am being conned is also insulting and patronising.
It is really interesting that I - presenting a nationalist viewpoint has been subjected to such personal attacks when I try really hard not to indulge in that sort of behaviour within the arguments. why is that I wonder - neither of you have tried to influence me with reasoned arguments although rob's list bears a further look - my earlier research on the subject suggests its a one side says one thing and one another but I will get round to it. Instead you have rubbished my integrity and my intellect and yet both of you are intelligent men well able to present a case for the union - seems like insulting me and painting me a love sick gullible empty headed woman is more appetising to you.
If anyone needed any evidence of why there is a need for a Woman's group on Independence you have it right here. Shame on you
1K.Orger
no I have just accused you of not using your logical, unemotional objectivity.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
1K.Orger
"Rob I will decide on Independence on what is important to ME - you make your mind up on what is important to you.... If that is renewables then that is up to you. To suggest that I am being conned is also insulting and patronising"
You live in a democracy right...free speech...then why the crap about being insulted...just because you dont see / believe the points I made as is your free right...or have you made any attempt to think them through, then counter debate eh !!!...fine you have a right to believe in the so called brave new world...I and many others have the right to disagree...I would like to say that I am arguing on facts..and as far as I can see you havent mentioned / articulated in any way why Scotland should indulge in seperatism. Argue your case then, Im no cyber bully, lets hear why you think we should seperate ???
1K.Orger
What again????
1K.Orger
Ive re read your postings and what I can see is that you express "dreams are about the eradication of child poverty, fairer taxation system, better care for the elderly for looked after children and for each other, a society which encourages everyone to achieve their own potential and a million other things" a pretty broad statement, if you are sure that this will be delivered by a seperate Scotland then fair play to you, me everything comes down to economics and ability to pay, the SNP have delivered some of your social wishes...but thats within a UK setting, my well documented fears are that Scotland and the stated ecomonic future economic direction cannot and will not deliver. Anyone can wish for anything and any politician can make wishful statements of intent, but the key question is how are things financed...from earned revenues..and like it or not Salmon has made great play on how Sctoland ( yet again and Im now sick of qouting him ) will be the Saudia Arabla of Rebewable Energy. Its not happening, but vplease correct me if you so wish, where will the revenues come from ????
1K.Orger
Squidge,
I hate to say this but you are wasting your time and energy, over and over again you have written why you are backing Independence and time and time again the naysayers are testing you to the limit. Only Rob has given us a half hearted attempt at persuading us why we should stay in the Union, as you say, the rest are just Trolling and giving out personal attacks.
At the end of the day, we vote as we choose. I respect anyones wishes to vote to stay in the Union and I expect those people to respect my wish to leave.
In two years time I dont expect anyone's mind on this Forum to have changed so as far as I am concerned we are all wasting our time and energy on something that we dont really have control over.
C3...........
1K.Orger
A half hearted attempt, come on lol, Im 100% committed to staying in the UK albeit with more devolved economic powers and a stronger regional involvement. My own views, thats the way I see it, and hopefully others may well wish to dig a bit deeper into the economic arguements being forwarded. We do have control though...we have a vote and the issue is to get people to make informed choices, thats the thrust of the matter, dont belive what your are told, find out your self, the vote ( however worded ) will be the most significant political event ever, so folks dont take things at face value from anyone, dig deep !!!!Squidge,
I hate to say this but you are wasting your time and energy, over and over again you have written why you are backing Independence and time and time again the naysayers are testing you to the limit. Only Rob has given us a half hearted attempt at persuading us why we should stay in the Union, as you say, the rest are just Trolling and giving out personal attacks.
At the end of the day, we vote as we choose. I respect anyones wishes to vote to stay in the Union and I expect those people to respect my wish to leave.
In two years time I dont expect anyone's mind on this Forum to have changed so as far as I am concerned we are all wasting our time and energy on something that we dont really have control over.
C3...........
.Orger
this again from the man who has started more and turned more threads onto Voting for Independence than anyone else. HYPOCRITE
At the end of the day, we vote as we choose. I respect anyones wishes to vote to stay in the Union and I expect those people to respect my wish to leave.
In two years time I dont expect anyone's mind on this Forum to have changed so as far as I am concerned we are all wasting our time and energy on something that we dont really have control over.
C3...........
1K.Orger
We're both part of the same hypocrisy, senator, but never think it applies to my family. Michael Corleone Godfather 2
1K.Orger
This is the business we've chosen; I didn't ask who gave the order, because it had nothing to do with business! Hyman Roth lol lol
1K.Orger
Not just that but one of the flagship policy areas of the SNP is renewable energy but C3 has been consistently anti-renewables throughout.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
1K.Orger
I am the first to admit that I dont understand the economic argument - in fact i say it here again and again. There is argument and counter argument about what is and isnt possible in an economic Scotland. However there is one truth amongst all the flannery and flummery and that is that when you get down to it, in an Independent Scotland the money raised in Scotland will be spent in Scotland on priorities decided by the Scottish people through using their vote.
We vote for a government based on what is in their manifesto and we decide. Currently within the Union The Scottish electorate votes for a westminster government which allocates money to Scotland based on their own priorities. These may include NHS reforms, welfare reforms. Increasing tuition fees, A replacement for Trident, a new rail link to Birmingham, elite sportsmen and women amongst other things.
Scottish prioities may not include any or all of those. In addition, areas where the Scottish government - and I am talking future scottish governements not necessarily the SNP - may wish to prioritise a Scottish National Health service, Dualling the A9, tax reforms, Innovation in welfare, growth and job creation, free higher education and a revamp of the social care system. Because the current set up allows Westminster to base the amount on their own priorities, it ties the hands of any Scottish government to address its own priorities as fully as it could do if it was the government of an Independent Scotland. for me the important thing about the Economics of an independent Scotland is that we will have full control of our budgets, our priorities and our policies.
Now to oil and renewables, Politicians and the media tell us all the time that oil will run out and I am sure that it will but industry and technology do not stand still. the industrial landscape is not static it changes and grows. Even left to its own devices it does that with a programme of scientific development and industrial growth - better lending and support of new innovative businesses then we can change and grow so that by the time the oil runs out Scotland no longer needs oil. Now that maybe renewables or it maybe other things. I dont beleive we can be the Saudi Arabia of renewables but neither do I beleive that the oil will run out the day after Scotland gains Independence.
As for welfare, millions and millions of pounds are being wasted on the welfare reforms which the government is driving through just now. There is no innovation, there is no desire to support or assist the unemployed, the sick or the disabled. The UK government fiddles around the edges and ends up paying over £100 million to ATOS to deliver fitness to work interviews and because they make such a hash of it they then have to pay £48 million for the appeals procedures. Not satisfied with this they then give the SAME company another contract to deliver welfare reductions. As for help for unemployed people this and previous governments put the responsibilty for help to private companies whose main aim is to make a profit. the chief Executive of one of these companies recently gave herself a £9 million bonus, whilst some of her companies were being investigated for fraud. £9 million pounds from the profits made off placing unemployed people into work - £9 million!!!! and the government spends all its time and energy persuading us that those on welfare are the scoundrels, the skivers and the dishonest ones. So much so that in a recent survey, 70% of people thought that the vast majority of people on benefits were getting more than they were entitled to through either fraud or lying about their situation or illness. They thought that 55% of claimants were doing this when in actual fact the figure is 3%.
Child poverty - this government commissioned Frank Field to complete a report on Poverty and life chances which he did and which makes interesting reading. They then completely ignored its recommendations and have done nothing to tackle the poverty which is strangling the aspirations of many children.
What I see when I look at the Westminster style of politics, of governance is a government which cares little for "society" as a whole. Accross both parties - Labour and tory and as for the Lib Dems they have lost all credibillity. I see absolutely no impetus to change society to make it better - how can there be impetus, those in the positions of power have utterly no idea of the degradation and difficulties people on benefits for example, might feel. IT is like a book in a foreign language to them. They can look and have an attempt at uttering the right words but they have no idea what those words really mean.
So what will a YES vote in the referendum mean for me.... Well it will mean that we have the opportunity to begin a process which will hopefully lead to a better society and some of the issues and dreams I and many others have being addressed.
Did you read that - The opportunity to begin..... The referendum is about democracy.... it is about having the democratic right to vote for an Independent Scotland and FROM then to have the right to vote for a Scottish Government that implements policies which will benefit Scotland. The polices themselves will be for the election in 2016.
I belevie from the research that I have done that there will be a change in the political landscape of Scotland if a YES vote is secured. The parties will have to change or become irrelevant... Tory and Labour parties will have to develop policies for an Independent Scotland - something they are refusing to do just now and who can blame them. Scottish MPs in Westminster will lose their seats ( might account for the behaviour of the scottish Affairs committee a little if you remember that all those Mps on that committee will be out of a job if there is a YES vote.) and some of them may head north to seek to influence society in an Independent Scotland by standing for other parties - I would welcome that. The SNP themselves would, according to many commentators, splinter and new parties like the Scottish Democratic Alliance will emerge with their policies and priorities to add to the debate.
This creates massive opportunity to be a force for good - not for the SNP - I have no idea who will lead a Government in and Independent Scotland. Alex salmond it may be but it may just as easily not be the SNP. This possibility to redefine Scotland and its government is a huge opportunity not to be missed. That is why I will vote YES. not because i love my husband; not because I hate english people; not because I am some stupid wee girl being conned by Alex salmond and his charms(?!) but because I beleive that an Independent Scotland gives us possibilities not available to us as part of the union. i have yet to see an argument that the same or better opportunity for change is available within the union.
Rob, you may not agree, You may shake your head and complain that i am a dreamer and vapid and lacking in intellect but i have put as much effort into making my decision over the last many years as you have in making yours. Over the next 2 years I will campaign for Independence.... not for the SNP as much as many unionist supprters would have us beleive its the same thing - it isnt. I will do that because I BELIEVE in the power of the Scottish Electorate to elect a parliament which is about people and their lives. Improvements and changes wont happen at once, they wont be implemented immediately and we might have to tighten our belts and pay a bit more in tax but actually I dont mind that.... Its beginning the process that is important ... creating the opportunity and working in whatever small way I can to create the opportunity for change and help people live better lives in a society that actually wants the best for all its citizens
Last edited by squidge; 16-Aug-12 at 15:27.
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