Sir Chris tells it as it is.

[ducati]

So we Scots don't pay any taxes then and would sooner live off the generosity of the English? Thats very kind of them indeed!
If they wanted free prescriptions, glasses and higher education then most of the silly fools voted for the wrong party at the last elections. There is no way they are going to get those freebies with the Tories in charge are they?
Didn't you tell them that our Council tax has been frozen for the last 4 years Duke? I expect they think they are paying for that as well!
They have got far better NHS services and hospitals than we have and they have got to learn that you can't have everything and they have also got to learn that they don't subsidise us Scots. We pay all our taxes the same as they do and we only get back what we pay in.
Everytime I fill my car up I pay in the region of £50 in taxes, I often wonder where that money ends up, probably to the upkeep of Buckingham Palace!!

C3..............

Don't tell me, tell them.

[squidge]

Aha Ducati, I thought you were telling ME to b..... off lol.

It's no good eulogising about a hyperthetical utopia that may or may not happen when all the current signs are that neither the politics,politicians ,civil service and the like look as though they are even living in the last century let alone this one and their resistance to any change that could affect their vested interests is blatantly obvious.
Call me an old cynic but I do have ,age, experience and a critical eye that has taught me over the years to take nothing on trust, to question everything, do alot of research on my own behest and then try and make a judgement on the facts available.

Im no spring chicken myself Lizz and I too have a critical eye - the thing is that I cast my critical eyes over what has happened over the last however many years and see that the Westminster politicians have made little or no effort to change - that the facts show us that we bounce from Tory governments to Labour governments and one side does one thing and one the other.... I see a society where the powers that be see ordinary people as those to be screwed whilst allowing multi million pound organisations and individuals to avoid tax by the bucket load, I see a society which doesnt value people and where many children fail to reach their potential. And then I cast my critical eye over the future and I see potential for changing that with Independence. Not overnight - not even in one or two or five years but to begin a process which will make life better and fairer. It may be short on details but surely its up to US to dot the Is and cross the Ts - us being the people who live in Scotland through lobbying, voting, entering into consultation processes. I am not blindly trusting anybody - i am and will be working to try to make some of the things happen that people are telling me and others they want. I am sure that within the union there is no catalyst for changing very much.

If people are ideologically committed to the Union - that is fair enough but I am not. I want something which makes society better and the only hope I see for beginning that process is Independence. We have just seen the olympics and seen first hand what hope, and hard work and enthusiasm can do - why can that not be applied to Society?

[Yon Chiel]

why can that not be applied to Society?

The first, and only, woman entrusted to run the country famously said..."there is no such thing as society."

[ducati]

The first, and only, woman entrusted to run the country famously said..."there is no such thing as society."

There it is again! Finish the 'quote'

[Kenn]

My ideology is for me to know, no where have I stated whether I am pro or anti independence, what I am looking for is facts and figures that are written in stone and not tossed into the air to be blown away life chaff on the wind.
I might then be able to make an informed judgement.

[squidge]

Sorry Lizz I wasnt really asking about your personal ideology - you are right - that is no ones business - I meant a more general point and I have altered my post to reflect this

[Kenn]

No need for apologies squidge.

[Oddquine]

My ideology is for me to know, no where have I stated whether I am pro or anti independence, what I am looking for is facts and figures that are written in stone and not tossed into the air to be blown away life chaff on the wind.
I might then be able to make an informed judgement.

But nobody is ever going to get figures set in stone from either side of the divide, and we wouldn't even if the economy was buoyant and the economic/banking crisis had never happened.

Best we will ever get is the forecast possibilities if everything works as the politicians/economists/pundits think it should. And they get their figures from what has occurred now and in the past, and the possible (not even probable) outcomes from extrapolating the new theories/policies based on the known past and assuming the best future. Doesn't always work......because if it did, the UK Government wouldn't have had to do so many policy U-turns since the Coalition took charge.

The only informed judgment anyone will ever be able to make with any vestige of certainty is if the UK and/or Scottish Government decide to bribe the electorate and guarantees (written in stone) an £x handout to every voter if the vote goes their way......and that isn't going to happen...or, alternatively, if the UK Government enshrines a Devo-Max option in stone to be applied on a winning no-vote..and that isn't going to happen, either.

There is a difference between getting facts and figures to enable an informed judgement by examining and comparing the possibilities for an independent Scotland, or for the possibilities within a continuance of the political Union......and getting facts and figures set in stone...because if people are looking for set in stone certainty then, imo, they have possibly made up their minds already and are looking for confirmation of that decision...because the future in a new situation comes without guarantees, while the future within a known situation can be pretty safely assumed to be basically same old, same old with appropriate tweaks to satisfy the dogma of the party in power.

[Kenn]

There I have to agree, I have seen so many sets of figures that belie each other but just a few that stand up to scrutiny would be good.
Oh you too are a reader of Aristotle Oddquine that you have noticed nothing changes where politics and politicians are concerned, I congratulate you.

[maverick]

Oh and well done to Sir Chris Hoy winning his 6th Gold medal of what has been a sterling Olympic career, and well done to all our Olympic atheletes for many breathtaking moments and a very enjoyable London 2012.