Sir Chris tells it as it is.

[squidge]

And we were asked actually by rheghead golach so if you want to give someone a row for taking the subject off topic you perhaps should address it to Rheghead

[Rheghead]

I have reasons for my opinions....just because you don't agree with them does not make them unreasoned or unbalanced...it just means you don't agree with them.

Can you say anything about the Union that might be a force for good?

[golach]

Can you say anything about the Union that might be a force for good?

I and many others support it Rheg!!!

[theone]

The union does punch above its weight on the worlds stage - the UN security council seat; the G8 and the other things, the "special relationship" with the US is perhaps the best argument that there is for maintaining the union. Scotland being part of a union which has this influence is possibly a positive argument for staying in the union.

Definitely good reasons, and, perhaps, amongst the main reasons for my belief in the Union.

I believe in strength in numbers, not necessarily militarily but in terms of "weight".

At the moment we have a real say in world affairs. Whether we use that power correctly or not is a different matter, but I'd rather have that power than not. An independent Scotland would go from being a G8 country to something on a par of Belgium. For me, a backward step.

One thing that I really don't understand is the stance of the SNP on separation. How can you be pro independence (home rule) and pro EU (outside rule) at the same time? Pick one or the other. Wanting your cake and eating it? I think so.

[ducati]

My reasons are selfish. I don't like the SNP, anyone in it, their history and as a result, anything they stand for.

The question on the referendum in my opinion should be; do you agree that Scotland should leave the Union and you as a citizen should lose all the rights and privilages that are associated with it, and put your future in the hands of a bunch of meglamaniacs that stand for a party that was quite prepared to sell out the UK to Hitler to further their own selfish aims?

Oh.. I'm sure that's what Chris thinks too.

Bliddy hell I just got a green dubry for that

[Aaldtimer]

..."and put your future in the hands of a bunch of meglamaniacs that stand for a party that was quite prepared to sell out the UK to Hitler to further their own selfish aims?"

Wow Ducs, where did you get that from?

A source of that accusation might prove interesting!

(It's "megalomaniacs" by the way.)

[Corrie 3]

I and many others support it Rheg!!!

And that's a good reason for staying in the Union Golach?...I don't think so!!!!

C3..............

[Corrie 3]

My reasons are selfish. I don't like the SNP, anyone in it, their history and as a result, anything they stand for.

The question on the referendum in my opinion should be; do you agree that Scotland should leave the Union and you as a citizen should lose all the rights and privilages that are associated with it, and put your future in the hands of a bunch of meglamaniacs that stand for a party that was quite prepared to sell out the UK to Hitler to further their own selfish aims?

Oh.. I'm sure that's what Chris thinks too.

Bliddy hell I just got a green dubry for that

Yep Duke,
They are very selfish reasons indeed!
As been said many a time, after Independence you will be able to vote for any party you like, you dont have to be ruled by the SNP.
And I do sympathise because it must be very hard for anyone who isn't a Scot to grasp what Independence is about. You for one are not thinking about our children and future generations, I want them to be able to stand on their own two feet and run their own affairs. They will be more than capable and I am positive that they won't want to be seen as being tied to British rule because it is a safety mechanism.

C3............

[ducati]

[QUOTE=Aaldtimer;969039A source of that accusation might prove interesting!

(It's "megalomaniacs" by the way.)[/QUOTE]

It's a well known fact (and not and never will be forgiven) Try google

(spelling....must try harder)

[ducati]

Yep Duke,
They are very selfish reasons indeed!
As been said many a time, after Independence you will be able to vote for any party you like, you dont have to be ruled by the SNP.
And I do sympathise because it must be very hard for anyone who isn't a Scot to grasp what Independence is about. You for one are not thinking about our children and future generations, I want them to be able to stand on their own two feet and run their own affairs. They will be more than capable and I am positive that they won't want to be seen as being tied to British rule because it is a safety mechanism.

C3............

Why not let future generations make their own minds up?

[squidge]

Definitely good reasons, and, perhaps, amongst the main reasons for my belief in the Union.

I believe in strength in numbers, not necessarily militarily but in terms of "weight".

At the moment we have a real say in world affairs. Whether we use that power correctly or not is a different matter, but I'd rather have that power than not. An independent Scotland would go from being a G8 country to something on a par of Belgium. For me, a backward step.

It isn't a deal breaker for me - I dont think that the cost of Britain maintaining that position on the world stage is worth it and that is cost in terms of lives and money. I think that we have capitulated to the US on too many occasions. I do not want nuclear weapons in Britain, never mind Scotland - however there is no way that I will ever be able to influcence the British Government to remove these weapons with my vote and yet in an Independent Scotland I would have that opportunity.

As for being independent and being part of the EU and NATO - i see no contradiction between the two. As part of the EU we will have some of the influence that we need to encourage growth and development. As part of NATO we will have access to specialists and experts which will be helpful as we develop our defence force. Also the possibilities of secondments and being involved in excercises and other opportunities will help us to offer excellent career development opportunities to staff within the defence force. As an independent country we can make our own decisions about these things whilst still being outward looking. I dont understand why people think there is a contradiction between these two things.

As for being like belgium - hmmm i dont know anything about Belgium but I believe that an Independent Scotland, in control of its own economy and able to vote for a government which has scottish priorities at the heart of its manifesto has to be a good thing and lay the foundations for a future generations to truly have control of their own society.

You may sneer at being like belgium....

One thing that I really don't understand is the stance of the SNP on separation. How can you be pro independence (home rule) and pro EU (outside rule) at the same time? Pick one or the other. Wanting your cake and eating it? I think so.[/QUOTE]

[maverick]

I have one question which I think is very important; How exactly does the SNP intend to finance an Independent Scotland?

[pmcd]

Maverick - Easy! Alec's already said that Scotland will take 89% of the Oil assets, and 9% of the UK's liabilities. I'm sure Westminster will agree......

[squidge]

Firstly however the SNP need to win a majority in an election to decide which party leads us into independence and that is by no means certain that they will do that.

There are no definitive answers on the economy, however it is agreed by both sides of the referendum argument that Scotland COULD afford to be an independent country. The arguments that we are too poor to do so no longer hold water and are being avoided by the NO campaigners.

The answer to your question Maverick is that Whichever party governs Scotland will finance the country in the same way that every other independent country does - through taxes, borrowing and other income arising from grants and investments made on behalf of the people of their country. Much the same way as the UK government finances the UK - the difference being that in an Independent Scotland money raised in Scotland will be spent according to the priorities of Scotland decided by a government voted for by the people of Scotland.

How is that not better than what we have now?

[joxville]

Snip

One thing that I really don't understand is the stance of the SNP on separation. How can you be pro independence (home rule) and pro EU (outside rule) at the same time? Pick one or the other. Wanting your cake and eating it? I think so.

I asked the same question on a previous thread about independence, I'm still waiting for an answer from those that support independence. I recall someone also posted that the referendum is illegal, that in the Scotland Act of 1997 or 1998, devolution would be granted but in a way that Scotland wouldn't be able to hold a referendum on independence. If Salmond is so keen for Scots to decide their future he should also ask them if they wish to remain part of Europe, I think he'd find the majority would rather pull out of the EU and remain part of the UK.

[squidge]

Snip I asked the same question on a previous thread about independence, I'm still waiting for an answer from those that support independence. I recall someone also posted that the referendum is illegal, that in the Scotland Act of 1997 or 1998, devolution would be granted but in a way that Scotland wouldn't be able to hold a referendum on independence. If Salmond is so keen for Scots to decide their future he should also ask them if they wish to remain part of Europe, I think he'd find the majority would rather pull out of the EU and remain part of the UK.

I have answered you and theone Joxville but Ill say it here so its clear

As for being independent and being part of the EU and NATO - i see no contradiction between the two. As part of the EU we will have some of the influence that we need to encourage growth and development. As part of NATO we will have access to specialists and experts which will be helpful as we develop our defence force. Also the possibilities of secondments and being involved in excercises and other opportunities will help us to offer excellent career development opportunities to staff within the defence force. As an independent country we can make our own decisions about these things whilst still being outward looking. I dont understand why people think there is a contradiction between these two things.

As for your question about a referendum on the EU - the Uk governemnt has ruled that out but as an Independent country we can very well decide to hold our own referendum.

[maverick]

Maverick - Easy! Alec's already said that Scotland will take 89% of the Oil assets, and 9% of the UK's liabilities. I'm sure Westminster will agree......

The Oil in the North Sea will not last for ever, I also don't think that Scotland could cope with 9% of the UK,s liabilities, the reason for my question was to gauge how an Independent Scotland would be able to provide for future generations, I have paid into a British system all my working life and I feel that Independence may deprive me somewhat of my investment shall we say. I would be in complete agreement with you when it comes to Westminster's point of view. I feel that the Scottish Parliament should or Government should wait for at least 2 generations of our population to see the benefits of having our own Government before they start down the road to Independence. I personally have not seen or felt any benefit of having our own Government in Scotland, and unless I can see or feel a real benefit to me and my family and for our future generations I would not be prepared to vote to break up the union of our Great Nation...

[squidge]

I dont think that there is any perception that the oil will last for ever .... but depending on your point of view and who you read it might run out the day after independence is declared. I tend to think that it is somewhat further on that that. Again though i dont understand why people think industry will stand still..... our history shows us that it wont. the industrial landscape is completely different now than it was 20, 30 or 50 years ago and it will continue changing and developing. An independent Scotland can choose to prioritise research and sectoral growth to ensure that by the time the oil runs out we will have stopped relying on it to fund our economy - see Rhegheads post above.

[maverick]

I dont think that there is any perception that the oil will last for ever .... but depending on your point of view and who you read it might run out the day after independence is declared. I tend to think that it is somewhat further on that that. Again though i dont understand why people think industry will stand still..... our history shows us that it wont. the industrial landscape is completely different now than it was 20, 30 or 50 years ago and it will continue changing and developing. An independent Scotland can choose to prioritise research and sectoral growth to ensure that by the time the oil runs out we will have stopped relying on it to fund our economy - see Rhegheads post above.

Squidge your point is taken and I do understand where you are coming from, the reality for me is the UK government is heavily reliant on the revenues generated from the oil industry and are not going to hand it over to a Scottish government. Scotland raising capitol through borrowing and taxes is no different to what is happening now, Independence will not change that, money spent in Scotland will be spent where there are the biggest populations, because that's where the biggest amounts of voters are, Independence will not change that.
In my opinion the Parliament in Scotland should work for the people of Scotland for at least 2 generations with maximum devolved power so as to allow the people of Scotland to gauge the benefits of having partial Independence before they vote in the issue of full Independence. At this moment in time my perception of the political standing is that the Scottish National Party are playing Russian roulette with my country...

[joxville]

Anyone who thinks an independent Scotland will have influence in the EU and NATO is deluded; do you seriously believe France and Germany wil pay heed to us, I dare say even the English will treat as as the runt of the litter. We don't and won't have the economic or military strength to be able to have a strong say in the decisions that are made. I'm afraid we'll be seen as just the wee yappy dug thats bark a lot but is actually quite weak.