Are you British or are you a wimp?

[Oddquine]

No but you clearly are not open to any other line of thinking other than your own blinkered one as you made your mind up 50 years ago

How difficult do you find it to read and respond to a whole post in context? Which part of my further comment However what I have seen in my lifetime, and most particularly over the last forty or so years, has served only to firm up that original teenage perception that Scotland at the very least can do no worse as an independent country.......and could most probably serve the Scottish people much better has been written in Sanskrit so that you interpret it as clearly indicates that I am not open to any other line of thinking?

another sweeping statement including the P word

Now now.I am being honest.which is more than Unionists are.....probably is all any of us, Unionist or non-Unionist can say regarding the future. And an Independent Scotland in the future is as much an unknown country as the Union is right now, far less in two years time. There are perhaps some options which can be considered certainties in an independent Scotland..such as no Trident and no illegal wars, and social policies which don't trash the disabled..but, as in the UK in this current economic climate, everything else is just conjecture from a level of commonsense and logic. See Unionists don't really do commonsense and logic.......or use the word probably. They rush to print with their interpretation of just about everything from a basis that Scotland will be kicked out of the world into oblivion if they dare bite the hand that claims to feed them.

Or that they don't want to risk jumping out of the frying pan into the fire on the advice of blinkered views of people who's " mind has been made up for about fifty years.....no chance at all of anyone changing it..... "

The frying pan is already smouldering and on the verge of bursting into flames itself........haven't you realised that yet? I am not giving advice in this thread, and won't anywhere, though I will give facts and figures if there appears to be any point......in this thread I am giving my personal opinion....and re blinkered views of people who's " mind has been made up for about fifty years.....no chance at all of anyone changing it..... " I refer you to my response to your first snippet of my original post.

listening to the pro independent supporters arguments so far im not sure that a security blanket wouldn't be a better option

Funny that, given there have been no arguments from either side. Plenty personal opinion, but no considered arguments.

No I certainly don't, but unlike you I want to hear valid arguments from both sides before I decide which side to support, but the only reasoning im hearing from your side is "My mind has been made up for about fifty years.....no chance at all of anyone changing it....." by the way, how did you come to this conclusion 50 years before knowing the current facts and figures?

And you will get them..once you stop your snide remarks and actually want to so something other than insult. I have the time and information if you have the open mind. I am also more than happy to listen to all your valid arguments in support of the Union......they are currently on the internet as rare as hobby horse's droppings. I think it is unlikely I would ever vote for the status quo.but may be persuaded to consider devo-max. Again, re "My mind has been made up for about fifty years.....no chance at all of anyone changing it....." by the way, how did you come to this conclusion 50 years before knowing the current facts and figures? I refer you to my response to your first snippet of my post.

and the point of that would be what as you are clearly set in your ways and would only want to give your blinkered view from 50 years ago and the view that "Scotland at the very least can do no worse as an independent country.......and could most probably serve the Scottish people much better"

Kinda running out of stuff to say now, aren't you....I refer you to my responses to both the first and second snippets you have chosen to use from my posts.

I cant don't recall making any snide remarks. I think its a shame that we may end up losing a chance in a lifetime to make a go of Independence, because too many people like me are looking for valid reasons to become Independent and as you say leave the "Union security blanket" and are met with people like you who's idea of a valid reason is that it will "probably be better"...............

I'm afraid I interpret So never mind whether it is better or worse for the country, or at least keeping an open mind to finding out any facts or figures regarding this God help Scotland if its future is decided by people with archaic blinkered attitudes like this, as a response to one very selectively snipped part of a response as someone being snide because that what suits. If I am wrong, then my bad. Re people like you who's idea of a valid reason is that it will "probably be better".............. I refer you to my response to your second snippet of my original post.

[Corrie 3]

and there I rest my case................

[Oddquine]

do you mean current figures or from 50 yrs ago

The last London Olympics were conducted in a different time frame if that is what you mean by fifty years ago (although they were actually 64 years ago). I am sure, given my parents thought of themselves as British at that time I'd have been in my pram waving a Union Flag.

Not appropriate for applying to an Olympics taking place in 2012, though.

I assume that means you have no figures. Maybe ducati has.

[squidge]

Hmmm I have made it very clear that I am supporting Independence and equus I have asked and asked for answers to questions about how the union will help us do things in future, what we might acheive as part of the union and how Scotland will flourish as part of the union in the future. I havent really had any. Despite this I have been challenged to put my points of view across and I have done so. All that happens is that the debate just stops. Few challenge my pro independence stance and few offer any opinion on how Scotland will be better off in future in the union.

I am not a fifty years decided person, I am still working through in my mind the pros and cons and I have well documented my opininons on various websites and here. I try really really hard not to be blinkered and I am very particular about making my posts as open as possible. I am not confrontational nor dismissive and I try to avoid cheap political jibes - although sometimes mischief gets the better of me. I have seen little of any REAL discussion and I dont understand why.

A while ago orgers used to meet and chat lol maybe we should have an Orgers meet up night to discuss face to face some of the issues and reasons behind both the YES and the NO campaigns. That might be fun.... or not lol

[equusdriving]

The last London Olympics were conducted in a different time frame if that is what you mean by fifty years ago

No why I mentioned 50 yrs was because you said thats when you decided about Independence

[equusdriving]

[QUOTE=Oddquine;966638]

clearly indicates that I am not open to any other line of thinking?

No the statement "and nobody will change my mind" does that

and no illegal wars

, what do you mean the ones started and supported by the Scots (Blair Cameron Brown etc)

The frying pan is already smouldering and on the verge of bursting into flames itself........haven't you realised that yet?

could be a good thing for cooking all the chips on your shoulders

Funny that, given there have been no arguments from either side. Plenty personal opinion, but no considered arguments.

not really just find it funny how the same ridiculous statements keep appearing regardless of what side they are from (although I think you are easily leading that race) as I cant actually remember any such nonsense stated on here from the other side unless you would like to point some out

I have the time and information if you have the open mind.

that's rich, open mind have you forgot your "and no one will change my mind" statement

Kinda running out of stuff to say now, aren't you....

no not really

I refer you to my response to your second snippet of my original post

.

and...............

[equusdriving]

firstly my comments wasn't aimed at you Squidge ?? and I have said on numerous occasions that I don't have any answers but I am trying to find them, but that doesn't mean that I cant tell when someone is talking rubbish and will continue to point this out regardless of the political stance of the speakers, and was it not you who until recently was in a seemingly similar position as me regarding being undecided and wanting answers? if so you seem to be pretty convinced now, can you explain the facts for and against that helped you reach this point

[squidge]

I answered this on the North Sea Oil thread but here you go again

Ok what do I think the advantages of Independence are.

There are a couple of things you need to understand about my beliefs before I start - Firstly you need to know that I thinnk Scotland is a different country country from Wales, Ireland and England. I dont beleive that it is "North Britain" or that it is just another region - like the North West or the Midlands. That isnt a new thing - I was taught in school that Scotland was a different country and I cant quite get me head round those who say it isnt.

The second thing is that I have quite a soapbox about fairness and equality for all people -I cant beleive that there is anyone out there who doesnt know this about me lol but its worth saying because it means that I am dissatisfied with the society we have today.

So given these two basic things - here is what I believe the advantages of Independence will be.

1. Absolutes

We will be able to raise our own money.

We will be able to spend our own money.

We will be able to target our spending to the priorities of Scotland

The political landscape will change after the referendum and offer more choice and so we will be able to vote and get a government which reflects the voting by the Scottish People.

No Trident

Free Education


2. Aspirations

We will be able to develop a democratic process which suits the People of Scotland and is our own. Last weekend the Electoral Reform society held "The people's gathering" which took 129 randomly selected people ( I was invited but didnt go because I have been ill ) and asked them for ideas about the sort of democracy Scotland could have - they will be taking forward this work to look at different ways of developing the ideas they received further. http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk

We will be able to develop Scottish solutions to the problems we face here in Scotland with terrible health inequalities, social deprivation and lack of opportunities for the poorest in society.

We will be able to work towards creating wealth through inward investment, through an economy which puts growth and the creation of jobs at its heart and we can work to develop a more diverse business sector developing rules and regulations which try to curb the worst excesses of big business - tax avoidance, and banking shenanigans for a couple. Maybe even look at improving ethics within large companies.

We will be able to promote Scotland as an Independent country - this can only benefit things like tourism and rural issues. Although Edinburgh is not very close to places like Caithness it IS closer than Westminster and better able to understand the peculiar needs of the different areas within Scotland and therefore be able to address these issues better than Westminster.

We will be able to focus everything we do on creating a more equal and fairer society - closing the gap between poor and rich and working toward every child having the opportunity to achieve their full potential.

We will be able to develop a better welfare system which doesn't demonise people as wasters and scroungers and which could offer real help for those trying to find work by focusing on growth and investment to create jobs and help people back into work.

We will be able to make all decisions about Scotland's future, here in Scotland, by people that know Scotland and want the best for the people of Scotland.

That's a start but before you all jump up and down and say that I dont KNOW these things will happen. You are right I dont know but the overriding advantage of Independence for me is that we have the CHANCE to change things. We have the CHANCE to grasp an opportunity to do all of the above. Nothing is going to happen tomorrow or referndum+1day but it will change over the following weeks, months, years and decades. I might be dead before the things I want to see happen will happen but I honestly and truly beleive that I can do the best thing for my children and the future of Scotland by voting for Independence. The politicians cant make any of this happen. I don't believe there is a will to do any of the above at Westminster. Either with this government or with the current Labour Party. The only way any of the above things even stand a remote chance of happening is if WE make them happen - the people of Scotland by voting YES in the referendum.

That's it. That MY view on Independence. You can agree or disagree and I guess that Phil and Golach are right - if you are happy with the Status Quo and satisfied that we live in the best society we could live in then vote NO and be happy with that. I wont think you are stupid or ignorant - I am happy that I have looked at the issues which are important to me and made my decision based on those things and you have to do the same.

There you go Equus thats MY opinion. It might be worth asking some specific questions about what is important to you and then those of us that have opinions both unionist and nationalist can answer them as best we can and you can choose which answer appeals to you most.

[Oddquine]

No why I mentioned 50 yrs was because you said thats when you decided about Independence

I repeat......if anything had happened since to change my mind.......I'd have changed it. Nothing has.....so I have not changed my mind. Now why do you find plain English so hard to understand?

[equusdriving]

I answered this on the North Sea Oil thread but here you go again


There you go Equus thats MY opinion..

ok thank you and sorry for making you repeat it, but I thought you might have a bit more information, regarding currency, defence, NHS, taxes, borrowing (credit rating), debt, incomings and outgoings etc etc etc as surely these are fundamental to anyone making a proper and sensible decision ...........but then again lol

[Oddquine]

[QUOTE=equusdriving;966650]

No the statement "and nobody will change my mind" does that

, what do you mean the ones started and supported by the Scots (Blair Cameron Brown etc)





could be a good thing for cooking all the chips on your shoulders





not really just find it funny how the same ridiculous statements keep appearing regardless of what side they are from (although I think you are easily leading that race) as I cant actually remember any such nonsense stated on here from the other side unless you would like to point some out




that's rich, open mind have you forgot your "and no one will change my mind" statement





no not really

.

and...............

And you have the temerity to say my mind is closed! I am not about to fill this thread responding to even more two or three word snippets taken out of context. If you feel inclined to troll, then you are welcome to do that. I am sure you will forgive me if I refuse to play your games.

[equusdriving]

I repeat......if anything had happened since to change my mind.......I'd have changed it. Nothing has.....so I have not changed my mind. Now why do you find plain English so hard to understand?

mmmm that's completely contradictory to your statement "and nothing will change my mind" so I would look at your understanding of the English language before questioning mine and going round in circles

[equusdriving]

[QUOTE=Oddquine;966663]

And you have the temerity to say my mind is closed! I am not about to fill this thread responding to even more two or three word snippets taken out of context. If you feel inclined to troll, then you are welcome to do that. I am sure you will forgive me if I refuse to play your games.

well I will just look elsewhere for sensible answers to back Independence as you clearly don't have them

[Alrock]

ok thank you and sorry for making you repeat it, but I thought you might have a bit more information, regarding currency, defence, NHS, taxes, borrowing (credit rating), debt, incomings and outgoings etc etc etc as surely these are fundamental to anyone making a proper and sensible decision ...........but then again lol

No... These are technicalities that need to be sorted out by whichever government is elected to the new parliament once independence has been gained...
How many other former colonies of the English empire based there decision on independence on purely financial & economic considerations?

[squidge]

ok thank you and sorry for making you repeat it, but I thought you might have a bit more information, regarding currency, defence, NHS, taxes, borrowing (credit rating), debt, incomings and outgoings etc etc etc as surely these are fundamental to anyone making a proper and sensible decision ...........but then again lol

I could fill twenty seven pages with detail Equus - if you have a question then ask it - dont make the assumption that I havent considered it and thats why I havent told you. ASK or even better - look it up yourself. Enter into debates with other people both online and in real life, Attend meetings, write articles about it and take on board the feedback you get, sit up til the wee small hours reading economic tomes that make your head hurt. Oh and when you have done ALL that - which is actually what I have been doing - then you can sneer at me or take a dig at me for lack of detail or failing to make a proper and sensiblel decision..... but then again lol

[Rheghead]

How many other former colonies of the English empire based there decision on independence on purely financial & economic considerations?

Not many and that is why most have gone to the dogs.

[Alrock]

Not many and that is why most have gone to the dogs.

OK, so a lot have but not all & I'm sure Scotland would fair better than most, no military dictators or genocidal fighting between the various Scottish Clans.

[equusdriving]

Not many and that is why most have gone to the dogs.

yes but it seems that there are a lot of people who are happy to send us to the dogs, as long as THEY are in charge of the Kennel

[Big Gaz]

no military dictators or genocidal fighting between the various Scottish Clans?....oh i don't know, maybe some old wag of a local councillor will erect a border point between Thurso and Wick and there will be stand-offs, pot-shots and sword wiggling at dawn between the villagers ...hey maybe even a few of the Orgers will get hit by a stray bullet...or is that wishful thinking

[golach]

I could fill twenty seven pages with detail

No point in filling all those pages and clogging the Org Squidge, when even Alex Salmond cannot or will not answer questions put to him by the opposition MSP's on important issues such as the State Pensions. Can you tell me what will happen if we ever get independence?