Rehearsal Space Revisited

[clash67]

Ahem, if you read a couple of posts up, I said "I see both sides of the line".

In reality, are you seriously willing to spend all your time making sure that this place runs smoothly, are you gonna be there to make sure the equipment is well looked after etc etc

Yeah, it's a great idea, but in reality, it's a difficult thing to setup.

Music should never feel like it's a hassle. I never think it's a hassle. I go out and set my gear up every week. It's part of being in a band. When you go to play a gig, everything isn't always laid on for you with a red carpet at the door.

I don't think Caithness is falling behind. In fact, I think that there are a lot of good bands in the area just now. Sure, we don't have the facilities that are available in the cities, but if they're failing to keep going down south, what makes you think it'll be any different up here?

Here's a question, since you've accused us all of just taking the easy option of "I'm alright Jack"... do you not think that learning the hard way has made you more determined and a better musician?

Firstly I didn't say that Caithness is falling behind because there are no good bands in the area, I am saying that Caithness is falling behind because of the lack of encouragement there is for the good bands there are in the area, and secondly I was a determined musician from day one, which was somewhere back in the early 1980's but I see what you are trying to say.
if we are to get into the the whole learning the hard way making me a better musician then I can tell you that the only thing that made me a better musician was the fact that i was touring constantly from for 20 years or so and you either I got good or I stayed in Caithness and played the pubs for the rest of my life but once you get ataste of how good it could be then you don't want to go back to playing wee pubs that attracts punters soley for drink and the music is either an added bonus or a distraction from getting drunk and having a good scrap with the wimpiest guy in the room in the sad attempt to look hard, instead of performing at concerts all over the country and having a great audience turning up to hear good music and enjoy the atmosphere of a good live performance, the fact that things were made difficult by the lack of interest from the local fund holders and?or council did not deter me or my determination but it has held me back as a musician, I already said in an earlier post that funding was all too often made available for upperclass acts such as classical acts brought in from abroad at great cost I would imagine , yet the most basic of needs of local musicians were being neglected..is it a class thing ..who knows but that has always bugged me.
At the hight of the Howlin'Gaels fame we were apearing in national news papers and radio stations, we were invited to America to perform(which I did with session musicians due to the band having recording obligations back in Britain) so we were well on the way..not to being famous but to having opertunities to travel the world and still on a shoestring budget, yet when I aproached CASE (which was called HIDB at the time) with abusiness a plan which took me six months to compile for the funding required to update our gear their response..didn't even want to see the business plan as they didn't fund anything to do with music! Now what incentive does that give anyone who wanted to make a career out of music in Caithness..when they don't even get the same consideration as someone in any other career, I am afraid that attatude has never really changed and until it does we... ( and by we I mean musicians, not part time players that wants to pack it in cause they got a job that is more financialy secure or their girlfriend wants them to go to Skinandis every weekend instead of gigging) will be held back from competing with other musicians that are better catered for by people who understand the potential of the arts.

[theboss]

While I agree a dedicated rehearsal space would be a great addition to Caithness, the actual mechanics of running such an environment is incredibly challenging.

You're talking about obtaining funding for one rehearsal room, with a dedicated P.A and drum kit and possibly additional guitar, bass, keyboard amplifiers.

While I lived in Glasgow I used many of their reheasal rooms (Berkeley, Urban Studios, Soundhaus... etc etc) These were all professionally set up and run, rehearsal/recording studios with ALOT of money invested in them. They were also fully staffed 12 hours a day and provided a high standard of equipment. Now you would think that these kind of places would be respected, a place to get away from the missus for a while to make a racket with your friends, unfortunately not everyone saw it that way. Every single week we went in we were faced with the same problems. The speaker cabinets had been abused to the point that they had just given in, pieces of the drum kit were missing (things like cymbal felts, clutches, bass drum pedals), the P.A was turned up to the max and was screaming etc etc... Now agreed that these were rooms that were being let out 12 hours a day 7 days a week, but even with a full staff on hand to keep an eye on it, the equipment was being abused and was costing alot of money to repair/replace.

My point is that while in theory, bands will go in to a dedicated rehearsal space, bring their own drum breakables, guitars, leads, fx etc, get a sound they're happy with from the P.A and spend a couple of hours a week becoming the next Howlin' Gaels, this is not how it works. Not everyone knows how to work a P.A! Do you have it fully staffed all the time? Who pays the wages? How do you stop damage to equipment? Who pays for damage to the equipment? Is there to be someone there to check the room everytime a band leave? I'm not calling everyone vandals, and i'm also not going to pinpoint one age-group/type of person that would do this, but all it takes is for one person to spoil it for everyone and no matter how hard you try, you can't watch the place all the time.

I know this all sounds very negative, but I do agree with what you're saying to a certain extent. The younger generation do require a facility, but i'm pretty certain the High School allow there music rooms to be used at lunchtimes for rehearsal. The bigger problem is when you leave the High School but surely by then, if you're REALLY into your music and keen to push yourself, you should have made contacts in Caithness who have rehearsal space. You should know, or be able to find out where the more established local bands rehearse and be bold enough to approach whoever it is with the facility, whether it be a garage, a shed or a dedicated studio. I know of at least two places you have used for rehearsal Clash and another one where you considered. Maybe you should approach these folk for an opinion on using their facilities to see what they think, or WHY they don't let EVERY Keith Moon or Donnie Williamson wannabe use their space.

I await the response...

[Jeid]

Clash...

From the first line of your post you say that Caithness ain't falling behind because there are good bands in the area, so would that not suggest that people have places to practise and are using them to good effect? I personally don't see what you're trying to say. We're either falling behind or we ain't. If there are good bands in the area... who seemingly all have a place to practise, then what's the problem? Secondly... I'm a determined musician... I've met some half assed musicians, but I'm pretty sure all the people I know who are playing in bands are very committed to what they are doing. Other people can be committed to the cause you know. From what you're saying, it seems that you're the only man within 100 miles of here that can put effort into something.

You seem to be blowing your own trumpet a lot on this thread. Music isn't a competition. I couldn't care less if you'd toured the world. Not everyone plays music with the goal of getting signed/touring Europe. I play music with people who are great fun to be around, we have a fantastic time, the crowd have a good time, we get to do something we enjoy and if someone wanted to sign us/book us for a tour... bonus. But really, I'm not playing music with the notion that for the next 25 years of my life... I'm gonna be a musician full time.

If the council don't wanna support it, then that's up to them. I'm sure the money could be better spent on education and hospitals. If you wanna make it somewhere, find your own way of doing it.

And finally, music isn't the only thing in life. If I can make practise on a Tuesday night but my drummer can't because he has something else on... does that make him any less committed than me? I think not. You should have some respect for what other people want before slagging them off. If someone has a girlfriend(and you should understand since you're married) then that's obviously gonna have an impact on things.

[clash67]

While I agree a dedicated rehearsal space would be a great addition to Caithness, the actual mechanics of running such an environment is incredibly challenging.

You're talking about obtaining funding for one rehearsal room, with a dedicated P.A and drum kit and possibly additional guitar, bass, keyboard amplifiers.

While I lived in Glasgow I used many of their reheasal rooms (Berkeley, Urban Studios, Soundhaus... etc etc) These were all professionally set up and run, rehearsal/recording studios with ALOT of money invested in them. They were also fully staffed 12 hours a day and provided a high standard of equipment. Now you would think that these kind of places would be respected, a place to get away from the missus for a while to make a racket with your friends, unfortunately not everyone saw it that way. Every single week we went in we were faced with the same problems. The speaker cabinets had been abused to the point that they had just given in, pieces of the drum kit were missing (things like cymbal felts, clutches, bass drum pedals), the P.A was turned up to the max and was screaming etc etc... Now agreed that these were rooms that were being let out 12 hours a day 7 days a week, but even with a full staff on hand to keep an eye on it, the equipment was being abused and was costing alot of money to repair/replace.

My point is that while in theory, bands will go in to a dedicated rehearsal space, bring their own drum breakables, guitars, leads, fx etc, get a sound they're happy with from the P.A and spend a couple of hours a week becoming the next Howlin' Gaels, this is not how it works. Not everyone knows how to work a P.A! Do you have it fully staffed all the time? Who pays the wages? How do you stop damage to equipment? Who pays for damage to the equipment? Is there to be someone there to check the room everytime a band leave? I'm not calling everyone vandals, and i'm also not going to pinpoint one age-group/type of person that would do this, but all it takes is for one person to spoil it for everyone and no matter how hard you try, you can't watch the place all the time.

I know this all sounds very negative, but I do agree with what you're saying to a certain extent. The younger generation do require a facility, but i'm pretty certain the High School allow there music rooms to be used at lunchtimes for rehearsal. The bigger problem is when you leave the High School but surely by then, if you're REALLY into your music and keen to push yourself, you should have made contacts in Caithness who have rehearsal space. You should know, or be able to find out where the more established local bands rehearse and be bold enough to approach whoever it is with the facility, whether it be a garage, a shed or a dedicated studio. I know of at least two places you have used for rehearsal Clash and another one where you considered. Maybe you should approach these folk for an opinion on using their facilities to see what they think, or WHY they don't let EVERY Keith Moon or Donnie Williamson wannabe use their space.

I await the response...

All very valid points and of course your right in as much as gear being abused, I was the lecturer in charge of overseeing rehearsals in the north Highland College and it was qiute a task to try and keep the equipment from being abused or even going missing, one idea would be to have a responsible adult (parent / gardian) concerned with each group under 16 to sign a form at the start of each session accepting responsability for any loss or damage, another way around the problem is if each group used the facility for more than one night at a time and so they could use their own equipment and leave it set up for a number of rehearsals perhaps each band could have 3 nights at a time?
Whatever, I have been running around ragged chasing up possible candidates who have premises that are laying vacant,phoning around all over the place,sending letters etc and to be truthful I am beginning to lose interest in the whole thing, especially with some of the responses to this thread, I don't mind constructive critisism and indeed there has been a lot of valid points made on some of your posts but if the council couldn't care less, CASE certainly couldn't care less, most of the public won't care until they are out at the weekend and start complaining about the town being dead and the lack of decent live bands so why am I the only one really trying to help young musicians...very sorry but I am about to give up my 25year battle to try and get popular music in Caithness taken seriously by funders I am just going to shake my head and walk away. It is a pity but let me tell you about a phone call I made to a potential funder one day the call went as follows;
Me; "Hello I read your article in **** magizine and you were offering funding to musicians for various projects and was wondering if I could apply?"
Lady"certainly what is your project?"
Me " I have a blues/Rock group that are planning our tour for next year.."
Lady"Oh I'm sorry but we will only fund proper music, classical quartets etc.."
CLICK (me hanging up in disgust!)
Says it all really. Oh well I suppose I must have been playing nonsense music for the past 25 years.

[moncur]

Getting a place to practice after leaving school has sometimes been an absolute nightmare. The main reason why duress hasn't gigged in ages was because we couldn't get anywhere to practice regularly and relatively cheaply. We're now in a situation where we have a place available at weekends so we only have to set-up/dismantle equipment once every weekend. We practiced in the viewfirth for a couple of years and they were always good to us.

Schoolkids are pretty much sorted as they can practice in their lunchbreak at the school or use the youth club most nights of the week.

If you really are stuck ask around, you never know what may crop up, and im sure at least one person in each band has a garage (as was the case with me for many years). and usually if worst came to worst, any band of mine would have to setup in my garage to rattle out a few tunes. We still do jam in the garage on occassions nowadays

I say go for it. One more practice venue would help out a lot of people who don't have the handy contacts and resources needed for an easy practice.

[theboysintheband]

Theres no harm in askin' or tryin' to find some kind of fundin. Stick in there Clash.

As for the whole not wantin' it handed on a plate rubbish?! why not? I'd have liked it that way. Sayin' not havin anywhere to practise drove people to becomin' better musicians mite be true??but u could just use the rehearsal space layed on by the council (fingers crossed) and become better that way?! Far less hassle i'd have thought?

If the problems to do with gear abuse and staff can be sorted...brilliant! Im all for it!

[Cazaa]

You just don't get it do you!..am I talking to someone who has ever played a gig outside Caithness "get practising"! I will have you know that we practise twice a week and I consider us as playing to a high standered and focusing on touring Europe, we done our share of High school gigs and we also done it without the help of anyone, but what happens when one of these young bands want to take it to the next level?..they wouldn't get away with simply pleasing a small venue full of friends and family, when competing with proffesional acts they will need outside help and as much as they can get believe me, having a rehearsal space would be the first and most basic reqiurement, maybe that is why we are stuck in the 1930's..honestly with the attatude of some people it is a wonder any musicians bother at all. if you think that a high school gig is a good illustration of how easy it should be for the rest of us then think again.

I do "Get it". Being born and 'bried' in Thurso, studied music in Glasgow, then Amsterdam and now in Paris at IRCAM . . . I think I do know of the struggles of performing live music. I've performed 'gigs' in Prague, Berlin, Amsterdam, Paris and Canada. I also consider my music to be of a high standered (sic) . . ."we also done [sic] it without the help of anyone" Are you trying to kid me that Mr. Watson gave you no help in setting up the concerts in the first place? Why did he ever bother? (did you ever thank him?)
The reason I brought the other concerts to your attention was not for you to criticise but was to let you (the forum) in on the fact that there is a larger wealth of talent in Thurso than was implied at the beginning of this thread.

[K dragon]

i agree with clash.

yes its a hard thing to accomplish but why is everyone pointing out the negatives and never the positives.


he needs support and backing. not "oh that wouldnt work" and "oh back in my day speeches"

the high school does not let you practice if you are a pupil anymore moncur (i thin it was you who siad it)

you can only practice during break and if its for a school basedband project. before talent shows you get short practices. since grant took over it seems like a bloody prison in there.

but back to my point, im a young musician and finding places to practise has ALWAYS been a problem for me..............now its just finding band members LMAO!

i think he needs more support, he isnt just talking about setting up a small practice, he is also talking about making the local council and people aware that there are a large amount of young people up here with amazing untapped creativity. music is slowly dying up here, if its not country and not covers of some sort, getting people to listen to your music is impossible.

to clarify:

getting people to turn up to your shows, especially young kids...thats easy,

getting those people to listen intently to your music without getting drunk and yappping at bar (adults...some kids too lol) or running around like a headless chicken and jumping into each other like fools (kids, im all for mosh pits but the redwood isnt appropriate)

but in short:

GIVE THE GUY A BREAK HE IS TRYING TO BETTER THE MUSIC COMMUNITY SO QUIT DOGGING THE GUY

yeesh, youd think form this thread that you all want to be the only bands in town.

and that thing with the getting the parents to sign a waver for damages that would work as a civil agreement you dont need legal documentation just as long as they sign a contract you write up that they agree to, stating that they will pay if their child becomes and idiot with the bass lol

[clash67]

I do "Get it". Being born and 'bried' in Thurso, studied music in Glasgow, then Amsterdam and now in Paris at IRCAM . . . I think I do know of the struggles of performing live music. I've performed 'gigs' in Prague, Berlin, Amsterdam, Paris and Canada. I also consider my music to be of a high standered (sic) . . ."we also done [sic] it without the help of anyone" Are you trying to kid me that Mr. Watson gave you no help in setting up the concerts in the first place? Why did he ever bother? (did you ever thank him?)
The reason I brought the other concerts to your attention was not for you to criticise but was to let you (the forum) in on the fact that there is a larger wealth of talent in Thurso than was implied at the beginning of this thread.

THANK MR.WATSON!! when I was in school I asked to get guitar lessons till I was blue in the face but I'm still waiting, i then asked for drumming lessons but yet again nothing! Anything I learned, I learned on the road. No I admit I was just a youngster when I played the High School gigs but I had left school by then and we organised ourselves it had nothing to do with Mr.Watson, and I don't know what post you are referring to but I at no time implied that there wasn't a large wealth of talent in Thurso, in fact just the opposite.
All I am trying to do is improve things for future generations of local musicians, I am not saying that it is impossible to make it as a musician without help I am saying that it would be better if it was easier for the next generation of players if they had better facilities, but what do you care you have apparently made your way into the music industry so have I, only difference is I am trying to improve things for our music community,what are you doing?
I can't see where all the negitiveness is coming from, you would think this thread was about banning music rather than trying to improve things.
One hour to go before I go to the meeting to try and secure the land at the Viewfirth for the arts but what will I say 2no need to build any arts centre 'cause I have been informed that Cazaa has managed to become a musician without any help" mmm.
Do you therefor suggest that we should leave things as they are and never bother trying to help young local musicians? I find your comments suprising, and you a musician to.tut tut

[zebedy]

Getting a place to practice after leaving school has sometimes been an absolute nightmare. The main reason why duress hasn't gigged in ages was because we couldn't get anywhere to practice regularly and relatively cheaply. We're now in a situation where we have a place available at weekends so we only have to set-up/dismantle equipment once every weekend. We practiced in the viewfirth for a couple of years and they were always good to us.

Schoolkids are pretty much sorted as they can practice in their lunchbreak at the school or use the youth club most nights of the week.

If you really are stuck ask around, you never know what may crop up, and im sure at least one person in each band has a garage (as was the case with me for many years). and usually if worst came to worst, any band of mine would have to setup in my garage to rattle out a few tunes. We still do jam in the garage on occassions nowadays

I say go for it. One more practice venue would help out a lot of people who don't have the handy contacts and resources needed for an easy practice.

most of you dont know how hard it is to get the rooms at lunch

we do after school, being my jazz band sum nights in the week

only because everyone in the band are senoir pupils and also get on with our teachers, but the thing is with most ways our school runs these day( which may i really sucks but that isnt the music. its the uniform!!!! )
but u have to have an adult with u?

so it aint easy having practice places

and even when you do get the chance u get about an hour maby 2 max

my band Code6 have a practice place were our equipment stays and were in a place were there are no houses for a good distance.

and we practice from 1pm til about 6pm maby 7pm if mummy's havnt phoned for u to be back for dinner haha

i really think we should push for a cabin. not every persons band practices with a PA.. yes it is preferred by most!

but they make do

whats the need to have staff and the equipment.

a cabin with plugs? a carpet. electricty?

isnt that all most need these days?

[zebedy]

you can only practice during break and if its for a school basedband project. before talent shows you get short practices. since grant took over it seems like a bloody prison in there.

that K dragon is putting it a nice way!

[K dragon]

takes a bow



thank you thank you.

lol

[Reev]

Ah, the fight for somewhere to jam, well, Busy basically said where we stood on the matter (took ages but after a few run arounds, and getting the "manager" at the helm we got somewhere)

Still, i remember when i was in high school, it came down to who had the biggest garagem thatw as me, so all the gear was set up there, granted, it comes down to

1.) If someone has a relatively big garage

2.) If you arent the owner of the garage, you are allowed to use it

3.) The neighbours dont complain to much, or you simply play until 9pm at the latest

Yeah, at the age of 20+ a garage isnt ideal, but hey, it worked for me then

still, the lack of practiced venues is pretty dire, still, if ou look you shall find, took AGES to finally find the place we jam in now (hence the supreme lack of gigging)

Still, if people look hard enough and ask aroud they are bound to find sutin, its stil js the annoyance of luuging around so much gear that needs to be packed away and set up for every jam, but hey, beggars cant be choosers right

a room or building to be set up for people to jam in, yup, looked at doing this myself (ok when i say doing it, i mean i looked into costs and availability, and if practical) my initial cost values seemed to be (for a decent sized place) at least into the 5 figures, which straight away made me go, oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooook, think ill pass on that idea

The whole fundraising to buold somewhere, yeah i see that, still, it wont be a quick fix, these things take time, and heck, you wouldnt see anything for a year - two, heck maybe more, still, no harm in looking into it, i did, js looked a bit to expensive for my tastes

[Cazaa]

the high school does not let you practice if you are a pupil anymore moncur (i thin it was you who siad it)

you can only practice during break and if its for a school basedband project. before talent shows you get short practices. since grant took over it seems like a bloody prison in there.

Seems to me that you have quite a strong afiliation with the school there , K dragon (although speaking about your boss like that might not go down too well). I'm assuming you must work there, then, and therefore you might be able to have an influence on supervising during rehearsals in the hall or music department (are they still in the huts?).

Presumably there must be some booking procedure in place that you have tried. I mean, if the football and basketball clubs that run (at least they used to "in my day . . lol") can do it then why can't you?

[K dragon]

i dont work there numb nuts, i never implied i did.

[K dragon]

this is from my guitarist in eton, he just couldnt not have a say in this discussion.



"Hello people of the Caithness music world. While you only know of me through my friend's L2D Society, I have been watching this forum for sometime and seen how much damage the closure of the View Firth and Music shop has done to our local community, and I do agree that something must be done about venues, rehearsal spaces, equipment etc. Indeed, as you all know, it is something that K Dragon (mostly) and I have found most difficult to acquire, bar the fact that in such a prided music community there is a sufficient lack of musicians to even make a band for starters. Now, when I say things like that, IN NO WAY am I slagging off the caithness community, because in all honesty it is far better than some of the music scenes in England, but I am merely stating the obvious. The need to obtain a permanent, formal and maintained facility to be available to the community is indeed one of the more pressing issues at this time, but with the looks of things it seems that with the local council it is like drawing blood from stone. If anything, the most plausible way to obtain said facility is either a fund raising contribution by all and any who can in order to even at the least acquire equipment, otherwise the only other option is to seek external benefactors, which I don't have to tell is one of the hardest things to do if you need anything. The amount of paperwork, taxation and legislation that comes with this is alot, never mind the funds to even get equipment, alot more funds to get the facility, and the permissions for building/buying land, permissions to use the place in such a way (i.e. noise pollution), maintenance and bills and the ability to maintain profit to account for all these, then there is advertising and agreements for the use of equipment (i.e. if anything gets broken, then the facility is not held responsible to pay for it) and more... But, of course, this is if you go with an external (out of county) commercial benefactor. Before you start questioning my knowledge and why I am giving this message: A= I study economics so I know what I'm talking about and what you will partially have to face, and B= if you want this facility, then use the your music profits/reputation that you all possess (which you do, because performances are always of a high quality when I go to them) to gain the funds yourself and show that music is not just some throw away aspect of Caithness culture, or else find an outside benefactor interested in the music scene. Of course, you have to make sure you have a guaranteed clientel for this facility, or else all your efforts would have been in vain and you'll be back to square one and a damaged reputation.

I leave my message thus: go and do it, don't just argue about it on the internet and think it a nice idea. This sort of thing needs a collective support base, not just a one man crusade, so if you want it so much, then you wouldn't be argueing about the issue and its problems, but the issue and how to go about solving the problems so as when you present your case to the council, they will see that it is not some "spur of the moment" want, but a fully thought and organised plan. If they refuse, you try again, and again, and again if required. Admittedly as K Dragon pointed out, many people do give up because their talent is suppressed and they just don't bother, or get tired of fighting. But if you want it so much, and for the next generations to enoy the benefits of such a facility, then you don't give up. You make a statement and you stand by it.

Now you can rip this apart and take comfort that I can't reply to this so your opinions and slagging will go unchallenged (well, not for long, I know people ¬.¬ lol!), but take into account what I have said, and maybe you may one day get this facility and show that the music scene is more than just entertainment: it is a defined part of the Caithness culture and one that can say you are proud to be of becasue of your achievements. Thanks for reading."

[moncur]

Still, if people look hard enough and ask aroud they are bound to find sutin, its stil js the annoyance of luuging around so much gear that needs to be packed away and set up for every jam, but hey, beggars cant be choosers right

The annoyance of lugging round equipment???!!!!! WHAT!!!!! REEEV! When do u ever lug the equipment around? Was I ill that day you decided to pack all the gear away BEFORE sitting down to wipe the sweat off ur heid and have a ciggy???!!!! Im enraged! As will the drummer!

[K dragon]

i aint small tail an my lower region is definately up to scratch.

i apologise if i offended you, i wasnt aware you were female....allow me to make up for it...


i dont work there numb ovaries

the mouth has a voice eh?

if your gonna insult me do it in english.

[K dragon]

upon reading your post you seem................rather up yourself, and i get the hint that your a teacher of sorts

BURN WITCH!


listen lady, im just kiddin and thank you for grading my posts but i dont need it i get by just fine.


i was kidding its called humour, i have loose morals therefore i have a loose tounge and a very loose...........TAIL.

if you took numb nuts personally then sorry but you wound yourself up.

no harm or foul intended.

[Cazaa]

i aint small tail an my lower region is definately up to scratch.

i dont work there numb ovaries

the mouth has a voice eh?

if your gonna insult me do it in english.

Hilarious, must've taken you a while to Google all of that. "The mouth has a voice" is just one interpretation.

Yeah, I kinda got the idea that you don't work there. You must be a pupil then? (maybe first year?)