Well well well!

[crayola]

So were they speaking Scots at this time in the places where they were not speaking gaelic ?

Aye they were that. And a recht guid tongue it wiz tae.

[Partan]

Which councillors would they be then gleeber? I suggest we try to tempt back the former councillor that headed south some years ago and now represents her new area. I believe the ould crustacean knows her.

Good try but totally wrong!

Could you be referring to the onetime Deirdre Steven?

I know who she is but I have never met her. I know she was a Caithness councillor and now represents some part of Easter Ross. Reading the Groat keeps me informed.

Partan

[pinotnoir]

The most potentially confusing road sign I ever saw was about thirty five years ago whilst driving from Melness to Lochinver. Just south of what was then the Kylesku Ferry that road intersected the road from Lairg to Lochinver. The road sign directions were, pointing left, 'East', and pointing right, 'West'. Not much direction for a West Berlin tourist at the height of the Cold War.


Roots of my own family tree traced to the beginning of the eighteenth century come from Thurso, Stroma, Farr and Latheron, at least some of them were monoglot Gaels.

I have a real old mixture in my compound of clay, I would never swallow a pill unless it was evidence based.

[Aaldtimer]

Och min. We already worked it out. Just trying to show you youv'e been rumbled. Wer'e not all 'Heelan' in Caithness.

Rumbled eh? Presumably meaning "found out". Not sure of what I'm being accused of here?

Define "Heelan".

[Aaldtimer]

[QUOTE=gleeber;941363]LOL Thats the second time this week someone said that to me although the other one was related to a different issue.

So Partan..."The Caithness saying "Pork cannot be educated" is a tenet worthy of remembering."...You claim that as a Caithness saying?

I first heard in Lincolnshire nearly 40 years ago!

But really, when you revert to personal insults it shows little input to the debate.


Pigs are very intelligent creatures BTW!

Anyway, this grows a little tedious to me, so I shall leave you two to your mutual masturbation session. Enjoy!

I'll leave you with a quote from Mick Aston, Professor of Archaeology, for your consideration, "The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence"

[gleeber]

The Caithness interpretation is slightly different than the Lincolnshire one. In caithnes we say, ye canna educate pork. I dont know what it would be in Gaelic. Do you Aaldtimer. No, I didnt think so. It was your thread, offered in a very triumphal way and deserved to be challenged. Dont go running away with your tail between your legs and blame ithers for your inability to see it through.
I was too hard on the few Caithness councillors who have shown concern about the Gaelic Act. Not all of them say much about it although its obvious some of them have a problem with it. Their hands are tied by Inverness
Caithness will eventually have its Gaelic road signs and street names will be in Gaelic and in one hundred years time the gaelic movement will boast about how they brought Gaelic back to Scotland and even to places it never was an influence on the majority of the people, ever. This is a modern movement with its driving force a collection of Aaldtimers and newcomers with a romantic vision of their own heritage which has little to do with the struggles of the early native Gaelic speakers and more to do with their own egos.
I hope future generations will record that fact.

[gleeber]

Rumbled eh? Presumably meaning "found out". Not sure of what I'm being accused of here?

Define "Heelan".

I missed this one.
Native Gaelic speaker.
Im accusing you of triumphalism. As your not prepared to answer Partans earlier questions I took an educated guess at the intent behind your opening this thread. You were challenged and you dont like it. Get over it.
I met an old Thurso mannie this morning when I was oot on my walk.. I asked him his opinion about the Gaelic Act. He had never heard of it and cared even less as to whether they put gaelic roadsigns up in Caithness or not. It's nonsense he said. Theres no Gaelic in Caithness but if they want it theyll get it. simple as that. Ye canna educate pork. I nearly fell over the cliffs laughing.
Dont take it so personal Aaldtimer. Theres a moral at the heart of it.

[David Banks]

When I lived in Caithness, I was not anti-Gaelic. I just thought that it was pointless for anyone to continue speaking Gaelic. If one was going to get anywhere in the world, it would be necessary to speak English or some other "big" language. If Gaelic "died," it was of no importance - who cared?

I have recently finished watching a series of lectures entitled "The History of the English Language, 2nd Edition." Near the end of the series, the prof. leaves the specific topic of English and speaks about linguistics in general.

One interesting tidbit was that the Hopi and Navajo languages of North America do not have words for light based upon the frequency of the light waves as in European languages. For example, the Hopi and Navajo can refer to green and blue with the same word. Their references to colour identify its intensity rather than to the basic colour itself.

In the 20th century, some theorists have said that "the language of a culture in some ways creates the culture." Also that, through language, the individual builds a "house of consciousness."

These ideas gave me a new way to look at languages in general, and Gaelic in particular. I can see that it would be a loss if Gaelic were allowed to 'go extinct.' Some languages may need support, and it is good that the Scottish government has taken steps to provide some of that support.

Aside 1: I don't think we have to worry about the loss of Norse anytime soon.
Aside 2: Lecture series was from The Teaching Company/The Great Courses.
Aside 3: Scottish Gaelic is also spoken in Nova Scotia, and there is a thriving Gaelic college on Cape Breton Island in the north of the province.

[John Little]

I do not think that the question here is whether one is anti-Gaelic or otherwise.

I like the sound of the Gaelic language - it's beautiful and musical and I am glad that it is flourishing.

But I do know that Gleeber is quite correct when he says that most of Caithness has never been Gaelic; there is no historical justification for imposing the use of Gaelic on most of the county.

Politically - ah well that's another question.

But in most parts of the world any attempt to impose a language and culture from outside into an area and into a people, most of whom know nothing of it, and whose ancestors took no part in it would meet with a certain resistance.

I'm slightly bemused by the whole thing for to me it looks like some sort of linguistic/cultural imperialism and the only reason I can see for it happening is because those who are doing it have the power to do so.

Ah well - not my problem really.

[gleeber]

In the 20th century, some theorists have said that "the language of a culture in some ways creates the culture." Also that, through language, the individual builds a "house of consciousness."

I could go along with that. Without consciousness we would all be grunting and groaning so consciousness is a structure around which language can be built. In my case the language that allows me to understand the world is English although on a deeper level I can understand a heavy Caithness dialect without too much trouble. Gaelic on the other hand is a foreign language to me and in historical terms is foreign to scotland. I dont hold that against the Gaelic language but I do hold it up as a defence against those who insist I must now embrace it as a part of my heritage.
A modern movement trading in artificial heritage with the support of outsiders and cultural cowboys have taken over the heritage of Caithness to satisfy the deeper and unexamined aspects of their own consciousness.

[Pollycat]

I had the pleasure of meeting Willie Fraser (which they pronounce Fray-scher) several times while in Nova Scotia. Willie is a gentleman in his 90's who resides in Cape Breton and is considered quite an authority on the Gaelic language, culture, singing and step-dancing which was transported with his family from the Western Isles in the 19th century. He was the subject of a BBC documentary and was often invited over to the Isles for workclasses in his specialities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1fqVLMlDOI
http://www.ibiblio.org/gaelic/Albanuadh/4.2.html
http://ssa.nls.uk/film.cfm?fid=5641

I was taken to his home and introduced to him by one of his sons as a "neighbour just come over from Scotland". Willie shook my hand and spoke to me in Gaelic. I replied with an apology and said that I didn't speak the language and that I came from Caithness. Willie just looked at me and smiled and said "Well you wouldn't speak it then, would you?" He never held it against me though Lol!!

[David Banks]

I do not think that the question here is whether one is anti-Gaelic or otherwise.

I like the sound of the Gaelic language - it's beautiful and musical and I am glad that it is flourishing.

But I do know that Gleeber is quite correct when he says that most of Caithness has never been Gaelic; there is no historical justification for imposing the use of Gaelic on most of the county.

Politically - ah well that's another question.

But in most parts of the world any attempt to impose a language and culture from outside into an area and into a people, most of whom know nothing of it, and whose ancestors took no part in it would meet with a certain resistance.

I'm slightly bemused by the whole thing for to me it looks like some sort of linguistic/cultural imperialism and the only reason I can see for it happening is because those who are doing it have the power to do so.

Ah well - not my problem really.

Pierre Trudeau had the power, and in my view he used it wisely when he introduced bilingualism for the Federal government for all of its dealings with citizens. I arrived here not long after the law was introduced.

The French were a minority in Canada, but at 30 to 35%, their numbers were significant. There were a number of people who felt they were having French imposed on them, and their objections included the cost. The attitude of drawing a line around Quebec and telling them to stay inside the line would have been the "tyranny" of the majority. The bigger picture, which was not immediately talked about, was that there were French speaking communities all across the country, even on the prairies, not to forget the Acadians (les Acadie) on the Atlantic side.

Some will always see the law as an imposition of a language and culture, but it was not "from outside," as the French were equal co-founders of present-day Canada. The defeat at The Plains of Abraham did not give English speakers the right to cancel out all previous history.

As I see it, the benefits of bilingualism have been worth it.

French immersion schooling became - and still is - very popular in English-speaking Canada. Besides being good mental exercise for children to have such training - it gives a broadening of the mind. It has (I believe) made Canadians more tolerant and welcoming of people such as immigrants from other countries.

The accommodations made to French here also helped defeat the separatist views of many in Quebec and "saved" the country. If Quebec had separated, the Maritimes would have been effectively cut off from the rest of the country.

And, before anyone asks, bilingualism seems to have done nothing to help the native peoples who were here long before the French or English. Their situation continues to bother me, and the present government has done no better than previous federal governments.

Do you want to draw some sort of line around the north west of Scotland/the Highlands, and restrict gaelic speakers to those areas?

What proportion of Scots are native gaelic speakers? Is the number large enough to warrant "official bilingualism?" I do not know the answer, but expect such things were properly discussed before action was taken.

If I may be allowed to give some advice from Canada, I recommend that you all give it a try before dismissing it as an unwanted intrusion. It will have little impact on most lives, but will make Gaelic speakers feel more appreciated and more equal.




PS: It cost me 12 bucks to take out citizenship, hence the subject line.

[John Little]

David - I'm glad it has been a positive experience for Canada, and no I do not believe in drawing lines round people. That's rather different to imposing an alien language and culture into an area where it has never been.

This is Wikipedia;

"The 2001 UK Census showed that a total of 58,652 (1.2% of the Scottish population aged over three years old)^[7] in Scotland had some Gaelic ability at that time,^[2] with the Outer Hebridesbeing the main stronghold of the language. The census results indicate a decline of 7,300 Gaelic speakers from 1991. Despite this decline, revival efforts exist and the number of younger speakers of the language has increased.<sup>[8



There is of course a perfectly good Scots language which is spoken by many of the inhabitants- which could do with a revival too- as epitomised in the poetry of one Robert Burns...

Canada is rather a different case is it not? I'd be a bit surprised if my Council tax forms began to appear in English, Gaelic, Welsh or Cornish as a matter of course; but I'd have no objection whatsoever to people requesting them. I do not know what proportion of other languages are spoken in Scotland but I suspect that some minority languages may have more speakers than Gaelic.

By your reasoning it would appear that there should be roadsigns etc in those languages too...


However I repeat that it is not my problem but one belonging to the folks up in Caithness- they can spend their cash on whatever they like!</sup>

[radiohead]

My only comment on the Gaelic debate is in these times of tightening belts there are still bi-lingual signs being erected by councils in the Highlands and Islands. Surely a single language sign system would save costs and give some money back to schemes to teach Gaelic to interested people who want to learn more about their heritage.

[crayola]

Good try but totally wrong!

Could you be referring to the onetime Deirdre Steven?

I know who she is but I have never met her. I know she was a Caithness councillor and now represents some part of Easter Ross. Reading the Groat keeps me informed.

Partan

Partan sweetie, I am rarely wrong. I know you know who Deirdre is and I know she knows me.

As always, gleeber is right about Gaelic and the Gaelic act. It was introduced by idiots in the Labour Party and it is enforced by language fascists of all parties and none, many of whom are not fluent in the language and many of whom are English.

We know the Dundeenian's views from threads that are long dead. And long may they remain so.

[Aaldtimer]

We know the Dundeenian's views from threads that are long dead. And long may they remain so.

Really Crayo? Which threads might they be?

It's "Dundonian" by the way!

[crayola]

Long dead threads should remain long dead. I thought you were from Dundee, not from Dundo or Dundon. Gaelic is dying and Arthur Peanut brought forward its death. Is he proud of his achievement or did he resign because he realised he expedited its end?

[Aaldtimer]

If you can't understand the English language , there's little hope you have any clue about Gaelic!

[John Little]

Really Crayo? Which threads might they be?

It's "Dundonian" by the way!

This appears to be a twice fought war...

http://forum.caithness.org/showthrea...the-eyes/page2

[gleeber]

No one needs to look back on historical posts to see where the mans coming from but thanks John for the reminder of my own objections. This thread says it all. Traditional musicians and arty types are drawn to Gaelic language and culture in the same way rockers are attracted to dope. The man was on a high when he discovered there were 2 Gaelic speakers in Caithnes 150 years ago. Give him his moment.