Well well well!

[Aaldtimer]

Partan, the questions that are usually raised when the subject of Gaelic in Caithness appears.
See lots of previous threads... just put "Gaelic" in the search box at the top of the page.

The link is for new research which I thought might be of interest to some.

[Partan]

Partan, the questions that are usually raised when the subject of Gaelic in Caithness appears.
See lots of previous threads... just put "Gaelic" in the search box at the top of the page.

The link is for new research which I thought might be of interest to some.

Aaldtimer

There are many questions out there - only you can tell us which are answered.

You took the time to post the link and claimed that it would answer lots of questions.

The responsibility is with you to define the questions answered.

Partan

[gleeber]

I suspect Partan that you know as well as I do what the intent was behind Aaldtimers thread. It was a kind of victory thread. Well well well, what do you know, caithness is Gaelic after all. His further posts on the subject show the depth of his knowledge about the debate and that is reinforced by the fact that Golach agrees with him.

Welcome back to the org btw.

[Aaldtimer]

I suspect Partan that you know as well as I do what the intent was behind Aaldtimers thread.

Aye, you're right , trolling...a new species, a crustacean troll! That's why I didn't reply to his second post.

It was a kind of victory thread. Well well well, what do you know, caithness is Gaelic after all.

Sorry Gleeber, there was no such intent at all. Just an interesting link to add to the debate.

His further posts on the subject show the depth of his knowledge about the debate...
Such condescencion is unworthy of you Gleeber, I may not be such an expert on the history of Caithness as yourself, but I have followed the various threads about the subject...always willing to learn.
As me old Dad used to say, "The more you know, the more you don't know."

Actually, I'd forgotten to say, I'm interested in your offer to scan that info on place names etc...can I PM you my e-addy?

[gleeber]

Aye aye. Ill believe you thousands wouldnt.
Pm me your address.

[Partan]

[QUOTE=Aaldtimer;940601]I suspect Partan that you know as well as I do what the intent was behind Aaldtimers thread.

Aye, you're right , trolling...a new species, a crustacean troll! That's why I didn't reply to his second post.

[COLOR=#0000ff]

Not being an inveterate poster I was unsure what a “troll” was. I checked the dictionary definition and, although I “trolled” for mackerel in my youth, I do not think that that was what Aaldtimer intended. I suppose I should be offended but, hey, I have made intemperate remarks in the past which I immediately regretted. Perhaps Aaldtimer may also regret the comment.

Crustaceans are known for their persistence so I will try again to get Aaldtimer to tell us what questions were answered by his link.

Gleebers post clarified Aaldtimers position vis-à-vis Gaelic and Caithness so I must assume that the latter must have felt that the link provided support for his/her viewpoint. The journalist from BBC Alba (a non-neutral perhaps?) claimed that academic research, based on census returns, showed a very strong presence of Gaelic in Caithness at the time of the censuses.

Nobody would disagree that the south and western parishes of the county (Latheron, Halkirk and Reay) would have a soild Gaelic speaking presence at that time. However Caithness had/has other parishes (Wick, Keiss, Canisbay, Bower, Watten, Thurso and Dunnet) and no figures were quoted for those.

So again Aaldtimer what questions have been answered?

Ma ould faither used to say that "it takes one to know one" so perhaps you should remove the mote from your own eye.

Partan

[squidge]

So were they speaking Scots at this time in the places where they were not speaking gaelic ?

[gleeber]

According to Nicolaisens research Caithness was never bi-lingual and never Celtic. Even the Pictish tribes who lived in the land of the Cat before the Norse arrived were not celtic. Modern Gaels like to point to various gaelic place names around the county but often those names are English/Gaelic derivations of earlier Norse names. There's no evidence that Gaelic was ever the predominant language in Caithness. In fact the opposite is the case. The Caithness dialect evolved from Norse which over hundreds of years mixed with scots and English and no doubt a hint of Irish Gaelic has become what it is today.
Dogeared is right though. The Thurso side of the county is not as strongly caithness as the Weekers. Thurso dialects become more refined since Dounreay arrived.
Gaelic has as much relationship to a modern caithness as it had to an ancient one so why should the law insist Caithness is Gaelicised?

[peter macdonald]

aye long wee eck will insist we all speak garlic an incomers will be force fed neeps n tatties n haggis till they cry uncle n go hame

or our arteris fur up n we die

The Gaelic Act 2005 was passed by the Labour government of Jack MacConnell ..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaelic_...nd%29_Act_2005 ..The minister involved was Peter Peacock from Fort William.. Its a fact certain Labour candidates in the north try to forget when they were spouting in the Northern Times a few years ago PM

[sids]

Of course there were Gaelic speakers in Caithness. Our lot killed them all.

What's this- do they fancy another go?

[gleeber]

What I like about academic material is it helps me think outside my own prejudices. It made me think about the first boats to appear in Thurso bay and what happened when they came ashore. Its about 1200 years ago but who knows where the lot who were already here came from? 1200 years and surrounded by Gaels and they kept their own identity and their language wisna Gaelic but they got on as best they could with one another. Thats good going and then 1200 years later the Highland council votes to Gaelicise Caithness. Boy boy.

[Aaldtimer]

Gleeber, thanks for the e-ms, will get round to d/ling and reading them as soon as I can. Much appreciated.

[gleeber]

Not many people seem interested in this issue. Theres one or two letters hit the Groat now and again and sometimes our local councilors flash their concerns but on the whole the Gaelic Act is taking effect in caithness. Road signs will come at a later date when all the antis are gone, me included. Its just a matter of time. Aaldtimer and his mate Golach will be happy though. Good luck to them. Nothing personal but I hope they dont live to see it.
Ye still havnt answered Partans question Aaldtimer.

[Aaldtimer]

To be perfectly honest about it Gleeber, it's a matter of supreme indifference to whether the county gets Gaelic road signs or not.
I've had a quick read of the stuff you sent and find it very interesting, if a bit turgid.
Might have to read it again to get it into the memory banks though.
I still don't understand your antipathy though, especially with a surname which is derived from the Language of Eden!

And just for Crabbie....The when? The where? The how many?...clear enough for you now?

[gleeber]

I still don't understand your antipathy though, especially with a surname which is derived from the Language of Eden!

Ahhh the mother tongue.
Ive told you before I have no antipathy towards the Gaelic language, but the Gaelic Language Act.
That you found the research turgid says more about you than it does about the article. Its scholarly, well written and authoritive and says someting about Caithness history that shouldnt be ignored. For that reason it's not supremely indifferent to the heritage of Caithness.
You still havnt answered Partans question.

[Aaldtimer]

Gleeber..."Its scholarly, well written and authoritive"...no question, absolutely so, but then I'm just a simple fellow not used to reading scholarly thesis. And, ultimately, that's all it is, one man's theory, however well reasoned. I certainly won't ignore it.

As for Crabbie, that's the only answer he'll get from me, he can work out the rest for himself.

[gleeber]

As for Crabbie, that's the only answer he'll get from me, he can work out the rest for himself.

Och min. We already worked it out. Just trying to show you youv'e been rumbled. Wer'e not all 'Heelan' in Caithness.

[Partan]

Will you stop trying to tell me that there was Gaelic in caithness. Im aware that parts of caithness may have been native Gaelic speaking over a thousand years ago and you with no Gaelic heritage now insist we must bring it back. Whats that about? I fail to understand why an English speaking non Gael insists that the Gaelic language must be given equal authority to English in his adopted county. Why?
As a counter measure to your claims of place name evidence to support your right of the Gaelic language to merrily walk into caithness where its more than obviously unwelcome by a large majority of the local people I have evidence too to suppoprt the claim that Gaelic may never ever have been the language of caithness, even pre-Norse when it may have been that the local Picts did not speak a celtic language. Its unlikely you or Golach will make any attempt to understand the deeper aspects of this debate but if you want to check it out theres a scholarly essay included in the book, Caithness a Cultural Crossroads and entitled Scandinavians and celts in Caithness: The Place Names Evidence and written by W.F.H. Nicolaisen. I know theres a copy in the reference section of Thurso library but I have a copy here if anyones interested I could scan it to them.
If you still insist on Caithness being Gaelicised at least try to understand why some of us are gainst it. caithness along with the Northern Isles are a special case and should have been excluded from the forces of the Gaelic Act which has been more than welcome in the kingdom of Inverness and although some of our councillors have been blowing hot air about it for a long time I feel thay have let caithness down in their lack of effort to defend the special position of Caithness in its history and heritage.
Im resigned to the Gaelicisation of Caithness. In spite of the road signs not appearing the process is well on its way. Most people are not bothered. They have more to worry about than a bunch of romancers defending a movement whose finger must have been well and truly in the pie when scotlands parliament reformed in 1997. Fair play to them but I welcome them as neighbours to Caithness, not masters.

Gleeber

The offer contained in your post is a generous gesture to your fellow boarders. All properly researched material is useful in formulating the most likely explanation for any issue which engenders dissent.

What I would caution against, however, is any assumption of Damascene conversions - they tend to be few and far between. The most you can hope for is the eventual realisation that your scenario is the right one.

In many cases even the latter will not happen. The Caithness saying "Pork cannot be educated" is a tenet worthy of remembering.

More power to your elbow.

Partan

[gleeber]

The Caithness saying "Pork cannot be educated" is a tenet worthy of remembering.Partan

LOL Thats the second time this week someone said that to me although the other one was related to a different issue
Your right. It's important to have belief and I believe it. That helps but there's always the lingering doubts and lack of support. The best I can do is stand up for caithness as I see it. Our councillors although some of them blow off a bit about the issue are basically lame when it comes to standing up for Caithness against the Gaelic movement in Inverness. What chance have I got?
At least its entertaining and at times informative.

[crayola]

Which councillors would they be then gleeber? I suggest we try to tempt back the former councillor that headed south some years ago and now represents her new area. I believe the ould crustacean knows her.