Ambulance meal break offer

[billmoseley]

I have just watched the news and see that they have rejected an offer of a 1 off payment of £1500 and £100 if their meal break is interrupted. I feel this a very generous offer and cannot see what more they can hope to get. I know we all like our meal breaks when we are working but in a job such as they do surely you must be prepared to forgo you lunch. i'm sure it doesn't happen that often. What do other Orgers think?

[Maccy]

For that kind of money I would be hoping all calls come in during my break. They should not get anything extra for missing a tea break, just take it after the shout. What next our Soldiers refusing to fight because it's a tea break. If you dont like the heat dont go into the kitchen, get a job in a factory.
No wander the country is in the mess it is.

[Kodiak]

For 25 years I was a Lighthouse Keeper. Not only did we look after the Light but the Fog Horn as well. We were also part of the Aux Coastguard.

If we were eating a Meal and fog came in the meal was left so we could start up the Kelvins to sound the Fog Horn. If we were called out by the coastguard then we dropped everything and away we went to where we were required.

The Job came first at all times. No matter if we were on or off Duty, Eating, sleeping or anything else. We were on call 24 hous a day. Many a time I was called out of bed after only had about 30 mintes sleep. It was all part of the job and emergencies came first. I never ever, heard of a Lightkeeper who refused to answer a call.

For the Ambulance personel to refuse to accept a call during a break is disgraceful and any who do, should hang their head in shame.

[ywindythesecond]

I have just watched the news and see that they have rejected an offer of a 1 off payment of £1500 and £100 if their meal break is interrupted. I feel this a very generous offer and cannot see what more they can hope to get. I know we all like our meal breaks when we are working but in a job such as they do surely you must be prepared to forgo you lunch. i'm sure it doesn't happen that often. What do other Orgers think?

I think it is very demeaning to them for ambulance drivers to reject this offer. I also think it is demeaning to them that such monopoly money was ever offered or asked for. I do accept that reasonable compensation for loss of an earned and entitled privilege should be paid. However, if foregoing your lunch break in a real medical emergency is required I am appalled that payment is more important than action. One incident could be explained as an abnormality, but to plan for others is inexcusable.
Of course there should be a framework which ensures both reasonable reward and essential care. And also one which makes sure that this is not used as an excuse to bolster underfunding of services.
£1500 up front is too much but the principle is right. I suggest £500. £100 per time is too much, but the principle is right. I suggest £25.
I am pretty disgusted with ambulance men over this. And very annoyed that my hard earned taxes are being offered around so liberally!

[bluemafia]

Could you see the Fire and Rescue, Lifeboat, Coastguard etc doing the same thing? If it is a 999 call, surely a life is in danger and an emergency response is required, rather than "I'll be there after I've me brew"

[PantsMAN]

I understand that, instead of having a 37.5 hour week with breaks unpaid, they would rather return to the previous situation where they were paid for 40 hours and callouts during breaks were covered.
Does anyone KNOW if the Fire service is paid or unpaid for meal breaks?

[golach]

Could you see the Fire and Rescue, Lifeboat, Coastguard etc doing the same thing? If it is a 999 call, surely a life is in danger and an emergency response is required, rather than "I'll be there after I've me brew"

You cannot compare the Fire brigade, Coastguard , and the Ambulance service in the same paragraph as the RNLI, the first 3 are manned by paid personnel, the RNLI is manned by volunteers. Firemen sleep at night and get paid for it, Coastguards work shifts with paid breaks, why not the Ambulance service? If 24 hour coverage is needed then you have to pay for it.

[PantsMAN]

It would appear from the details below, taken from the scheme of conditions of service on the FBU website, that fire service personnel are paid for a 42 hour week including meals.
There is a note in the details which states that account will be taken of interrupted meal breaks.

So, a comparison with the fire service seems invalid...

Section 4
3. Duty systems will need to meet the requirements of the fire and rescue authority’s Integrated Risk Management Plan. Any proposed system should be discussed with the recognised trade unions and be based on the following principles:
(1) Basic working hours should average forty-two per week (inclusive of three hours of meal breaks in every twenty-four hours) for full-time employees.
Hours of duty should be pro-rata for part-time employees.

The hours of duty of full-time employees on this system (Shift Duty system) shall be an average of forty-two per week. The hours of duty of part-time employees shall be pro-rata. The rota will be based on the following principles:
(1) Each period of twenty-four hours shall be divided into a day shift and a night shift.
(2) The night shift shall not be less than twelve hours.
(3) There shall be at least two complete periods of twenty-four hours free from duty each week.
(4) Leave days shall change week by week in a regular progressive manner.
(5) No rota system shall include continuous duty periods of twenty-four hours.
(6) Three hours shall be specified for meal breaks in every twenty-four hours. The timing of these periods is at the discretion of the authority. Account shall be taken of meal breaks interrupted by emergency calls.

[TAFKAL]

I don't think the issue is they are rejecting the money. I believe the issue is that they want compensatory rest rather than the cash. Working extremely long shifts with no breaks is dangerous - it wouldnt be so if they were in a factory, but if you call out the ambulance you want paramedics that are fit for work, not exhausted.

And for what it's worth, the question is not about tea breaks, it is about lunch breaks. Tea breaks in the nhs are beinKg phased out to save money. To work 12+ hours without any break at all is simly not safe. You wouldn't see the nurses putting up with it...

All that being said there are professions that work much longer hours and also do so without guaranteed breaks.I don't think the ambulance service are being greedy, I just think they want working conditions that are safe for the people they are trying to help.

[bekisman]

Well it's a few years ago, but when I was an operational Fire-Fighter, you got a salary and if the bells went down during a meal, you just responded, maybe other ex-fire-fighters on here can say more?

"Firemen sleep at night and get paid for it"..

Hmm you're right, we were paid for it - it was a 15 hour straight through night shift but it was very very unusual to go more than a few hours without a shout, so a statement indicating fire-Fighters sleep all night and get paid to do it? ...not quite..

But this is about the Ambulance service, so I'm keeping out of it...

[Whitewater]

They are an emergency service, they should act accordingly and also be paid accordingly. I wonder what they would think of the fire brigade when there house was on fire, if the fire officers decided to finish their meal before attending. Somebody with a heart attack, stroke, or involved in a serious accident requires immediate attention. That is part of the job, they must respond as quickly as possible. There should be no argument or doubt. If they can't accept that then they should not have joined.

[billmoseley]

This is what started the dispute.

Ambulance man chose not to attend nearby 999 call

Mandy Mathieson died after falling ill on 16 October
An ambulance technician chose not to respond to a 999 call about a woman having what proved to be a fatal heart attack 800 yards from his depot in Moray because he was on a break.
The Scottish Ambulance Service (SAS) said the emergency in Tomintoul was instead answered by a crew based 21 minutes away in Grantown-on-Spey.
An air ambulance was also scrambled, but 33-year-old Mandy Mathieson, who had suffered a blood clot, died.
The technician has been suspended while an investigation is carried out.
Continue reading the main story“Start Quote

Our thoughts are first and foremost with the relatives of this woman at this difficult time”

Scottish government spokeswoman
Ms Mathieson's brother, Charles, said his family were shocked by how the emergency was dealt with.
He said: "I have worked in the fire service for 20 years and I can assure you that has never happened in the fire service.
"I just assumed, and the public at large assumed, that for a treble nine call the nearest ambulance will be despatched."
A spokesman for the SAS said the 999 call for a cardiac emergency was received at about midday on 16 October.
He said: "The ambulance technician on duty in Tomintoul was on a rest break and chose not to respond.
"An ambulance crew was dispatched from Grantown-on-Spey and arrived on scene within 21 minutes, followed by an air ambulance helicopter eight minutes later.
"Unfortunately the patient did not survive the cardiac arrest and our thoughts are with her family at this difficult time."
The spokesman added: "The Scottish Ambulance Service has asked the Health Professions Council to consider the ambulance technician's decision-making and has suspended the individual whilst this consideration takes place."
The Scottish government said it expected the investigation to examine whether procedures were properly followed and if there were any lessons to be learned.
A spokeswoman added: "Our thoughts are first and foremost with the relatives of this woman at this difficult time."

[Maccy]

It's a shame if they miss a meal break to respond to a call out, but what are they doing when they return. Surely they are not always on the road. Have your break when you get back to base.

[pumkin]

For 25 years I was a Lighthouse Keeper. Not only did we look after the Light but the Fog Horn as well. We were also part of the Aux Coastguard.

If we were eating a Meal and fog came in the meal was left so we could start up the Kelvins to sound the Fog Horn. If we were called out by the coastguard then we dropped everything and away we went to where we were required.

The Job came first at all times. No matter if we were on or off Duty, Eating, sleeping or anything else. We were on call 24 hous a day. Many a time I was called out of bed after only had about 30 mintes sleep. It was all part of the job and emergencies came first. I never ever, heard of a Lightkeeper who refused to answer a call.

For the Ambulance personel to refuse to accept a call during a break is disgraceful and any who do, should hang their head in shame.

This about sums it up for me. If your job relies on the life's & safety of others, then it's your DUTY to attend to the responsibilities that carries. Doctors take an oath as do Plumbers, if the public needs their services, you'll get a professional at any time of the day. Paramedics should not be treated any different.

It's sickening even thinking, that they think they're in a position here. Maybe they should be employed by Tesco's, their tea breaks are uninterrupted.

[Phill]

They are an emergency service

It's not an emergency service! It's an essential service.

[robbain]

The Ambulance service, should not be given any extra money, no matter, they should answer any call for emergency no matter if they are on break or not, their main job is to dealt with emergencies as this is what they are trained to do and paid a salary for it. Its like the police and the fire service, can you see them saying sorry we won't be able to attend as we are on a break. The Ambulance service should be accountable for any callouts not telling us sorry we won't attend while on a break. The wonderful government should bring them in and say you this is part of your job even to be called out to attend or simply say right we will withdrawn your salary and give you a pay out fee each time you attend a callout. See if they like this option.

[~~~Tides~~~]

For those saying that "if they weren't prepared to do the duty, they shouldn't have signed up in the first place" - I understand it that the change from a 40 hour week to a 30-whatever was a fairly recent UK wide cost-cutting move, a pill which was slightly sweetened by the fact the ambulance personnel were given guaranteed breaks (albeit not getting paid for them). So the case is that most ambulance folk did sign up and have indeed been working for years under a situation when they would respond at any time, but they were paid for it.

Therefor it does seem like a slap in the face if they got their hours cut, then had to work the extra anyway. As people have pointed out, their job is to answer calls. It is a job, a living, not voluntary nor a born duty, and as such they are entitled to fair treatment and not be mucked around by their employers.
As justification for rejecting the pay deal, the union has said that it is an issue of staffing and coverage not money, so perhaps they are forgoing the current offer to try and force the hand of the government to address the arguably more serious issue of understaffing generally (seem to remember several stories in the Groat stating that at various points there has been one or fewer ambulances in Caithness ready to attend a call, what with transfers to Inverness etc).

In the case of Mandy Matheson, the paramedic that was just down the road did not refuse to attend. He was not contacted by the control because they knew he down for a rest break. In all likelihood, in a place the size of Tomintoul, he probably knew the person, but there seems to be people inferring that he stubbornly didn’t leave his tea break when he knew there was someone dying a few houses away. That is an extremely serious allegation.

[rogermellie]

there seems to be people inferring that he stubbornly didn’t leave his tea break when he knew there was someone dying a few houses away. That is an extremely serious allegation.

if this allegation wasn't true then surely the guy could sue for slander or something~?

every piece in the media following this case directly blamed the guy for refusing to respond, even when he knew the circumstances of the emergency

so who's telling the truth ?

[Torvaig]

Well said Tides; at last someone comes out with the truth about the Mandy Matheson case; a very sad outcome which did not need any embellishment. It is such a shame that people are so willing to accept what is said in the media rather than listen to what really happened. A newspaper can screw any story around to arouse emotional response in the gullible public who then go on to make false accusations on basis of very few honest facts.

The ambulance service should be willing to pay to have enough ambulances and crew to cover large remote areas, many of which are rural with no street lights and farms that have no signs at the ends of their roads but expect a crew to find them in the dark.

How often have you heard "it took the ambulance an hour to get here" - "here" being in the middle of the county with no clear signage. Just think of the Caithness area alone; try asking the ambulance service how many vehicles are on call during the night hours and what size of patch is covered and how many crew are on call.

An ambulance technician or paramedic can be on 24 hour call, attend call-outs, some of which need to be taken to Inverness making that vehicle and crew unavailable for up to five hours. All it takes is one or two emergency call-outs and all vehicles and crew are tied up in an area such as Caithness and Sutherland.

Many of these vehicles and staff are taken up with not only genuine cases but also the selfish individuals who get stupified with drink, lie down on the pavement and insist on someone dialling 999. An ambulance and crew attend and miraculously the "patient" is able to get up and ask for a lift home as they are no longer feeling ill! This happens time and time again; total misuse of the Ambulance Service and their staff but perfectly ok for the waste of space idiots.

A crew can be called out in the middle of the night having been working all day, have to take a patient(s) to Inverness, stop on the way to deal with a crisis in the vehicle, return home and get the kettle on or lie down for a rest but the phone goes again and they have to attend yet another incident which is often fuelled by drink or idiotic driving.

It is not unknown for ambulance personnel to go without sleep and food for many hours but still be expected to work at optimum capacity and make life or death decisions.

Maybe it is time for the powers that be to look at the budget the Ambulance Service is allocated and how it is dispersed amongst staff such as the decision makers in their offices with their clean cut hours, the ambulance technicians, the paramedics, the part-time staff and the trainees, cleaners and mechanics etc.

Methinks the distribution of the allocated funds should be looked at seriously with enough budget for plenty of trained personnel on the ground to do the job they joined up for.

Sad that money is at the root of it all and governs how many personnel are on call and available 24 hours a day but the technicians and paramedics take all the flak with no right of redress to what is said in the media and just quietly go about their business.

And the public love it!

[rogermellie]

trust me torvaig, the public don't love it

if a person is dying, wouldn't it be reasonable to interupt your break, attend the call and put your feet up at the next available opportunity?

i appreciate they have a busy and demanding job, but it's not the norm for paramedics to regularly go without sleep or food. (i also know a paramedic)
are they so disorientated by missing their break that they're not fit to make life or death decisions?

i still think if this guy is innocent of blame then he would be able to issue some statement to make us, the great and the gullible, aware of the facts