Puppy sales on .org

[binnes]

I really dont know the answer to this one. The one thing that I do know is that every time I see pictures of a puppy for sale on here, it does make me wonder whether the breader is doing it to make a quick buck or if they are genuine caring breeders. Seeing those little innocent faces on here just makes me hope they go to a good, for life home.

[sids]

i think spading should be cheapper

Only as a last resort!

[neepnipper]

i agree with that but there a grey hound rescue centre ect i think spading should be cheapper then more dogs would get dressed

I think you mean spaying!

[starfish]

i did but get so annoyed when people just say about staffies when they moan about to many unwanted pups being produced . That my thought over take my brain

[Stefan]

I have made the polling public for the very reason that people should stand to their opinion rather than hide. If anybody is getting unpleasant private messages in relation to this thread please report them to the moderators.
Many people on here hide behind a username, I believe in being open and clear about who you are and what your thoughts are. This should be a safe environment to voice your opinion. If it is not it needs to be changed.
I am against puppy sales on here. There was a good reason it was banned in the past. Reputable breeders will not need an online forum to sell puppies. There are other outlets should a reputable breeder be left with a pup that was spoken for. Advertising a whole litter on an online forum means the puppies were bred to make money. A reputable breeder will not breed to make money, the cost of health checks, vaccinations, micro chipping, feed, care and registration should be covered by the price the breeder is asking. Making a healthy profit from puppy breeding is not possible nor wanted if done in a responsible way.
If one would check the previous adverts for puppies and older dogs on this forum (bearing in mind some will have been deleted once they are not needed) the amount of puppies offered seems totally out of proportion for such a small community.
I have never bought a puppy from a breeder myself. I always rescue my dogs and keep them for life. I currently have three, two of which are deaf, all from the RSPCA. That does not mean I would not buy from a registered breeder, I just never had a preference for a certain pure bred dog, so I was happy to obtain my dogs from a rescue center.
The breeds need to be developed but it needs to be done carefully and selectively, none of which this forum is supporting. I understand the moderators have limited time to devote and screening puppy sellers for their practice is certainly not something they would have the time or necessarily the knowledge to do.
So maybe it would be best if the forum went back to banning puppy sales and let breeders use other outlets like the local paper?
I would certainly be happy if this was the case again.

[golach]

I am sorry in your first post you said "Recently discussions in the pet corner have been hijacked to sell puppies and genuinely concerned people have been attacked by breeders and even threatened via pm." If the poll had been anonymous. i.e. no Org Id, how could threats be made via PM, as you stated.

[unicorn]

I think the org is a very good place, if you advertise in scot ads or the paper etc you have no knowledge about the prospective owner, at least here you can check old posts and get a feel for the person.

[crustyroll]

I dont think the ads should be banned, but more regulated.
i.e puppies should not go to their new homes before 8 weeks and be wormed and vet checked beforehand.
Infact any animal being sold should not go from their mums until the minimum age recommended.
In an ideal world the seller should be made to provide persons interested in the pups a home phone no and not just a mobile no as well as an address and offer a lifetime garantee to take the pup back if things go wrong....like thats going to happen!

I voted no to the ads being banned but I do agree that people shouldnt hide behind their org name or totally ignore questions being asked by people on the org. If you look at the recent thread on my puppy advert in the for sale section you will see that I haven't hidden anything and still got slated for it.

By the way, I do offer a lifetime guarantee as a local orger will tell you, I took her puppy back when he was a year old and rehomed him myself. I have a contract that the buyers and I sign to cover all those aspects and I advertise on here only when I have a pup left over from my waiting list. Unfortunately this time I do have a pup left over as the majority of folk on my waiting list were wanting girls. I also advertise on champdogs where cross breeds aren't allowed and the site is well monitored for any dodgy dealings. I have advertised in the local paper but it isn't cheap and when compared to the responses I've had, isn't worth it. Why is the Org different from having an advert in the Groat?

I'm being totally honest here and will probably get a right slating for it. I'm not in it to make money but I can't pull money out of thin air and after paying a stud fee, the emergency vets bills for a section, extra feeding and washing, vet bed and all the little extras that cost money, ie, I make a puppy pack and all the paper and ink cartridges that are used to print it all out still costs money. I think this litter is running at a loss but to me that's not what matters. What matters is that I've got a girl out of it for me, 2 fantastic homes lined up for the pups and an extra boy staying here until the right home comes along for him. If a home doesn't come along, then he stays, simple as that, he won't be given to anyone just because I don't want the extra mouth to feed, I'm not that kind of person. I'm hoping to show the girl that I'm keeping and when she's old enough I will breed her and again hopefully keep a girl for myself, again to show and be part of the family as well above all else. Again, if a puppy comes back for whatever reason then they will stay here until a home is found for him/her, I care far too much for them to be passed from pillar to post. I don't kiss and cuddle them or get up during the night, spend all my time with them, have my house chewed to bits for nothing.

[canadagirl]

I cringe every time I see a puppies for sale ad. It's not so much the homes they're going to, as the conditions the mums could be in. I had a rescue dog from a "breeder". The poor thing had been kept in a cage all her life, debarked so she couldn't make annoying noise, and very little human contact. This is very common with all the small cross-breed dogs. The money these little dogs bring in encourages people to do it. Licensing doesn't do much good. The only thing that will stop it is awareness. Never ever buy a dog without seeing the conditions the parents are kept in.

[mop top]

Whilst i see the logic in what is being said re the banning of pup sales on the org, has anyone stopped to think what will happen to the puppies which will still be bred if that happens? Do you think that all of a sudden they will just stop breeding them? I deal with the aftermath of the puppies and dogs being dumped in Caithness on a daily basis and its not just going to disappear because they cant advertise the pups on the org.

I would like to think that a lot of pups and older dogs have found lovely forever homes through the org, which they perhaps might not have found otherwise. You take that facility away and what happens to the cross breed pups whether they accidental or intentional that owners cant afford to advertise in local papers etc they will be dumped on the street, handed into the police station or worse we only hear about the ones who are saved.

A national spaying and neutering programme for all dogs other than for registered health checked breeding stock, kept and bred by people who know what they are doing and have passed some kind of board and satisfied the panels questions as to why they wish to breed and that they have the competence to do so responsibily. This would be no mean feat to implement but its the only way to stop this in my opinion.

[porshiepoo]

Seems to me that people have more of an issue with the lack of health checks of the parents or the crossing of breeds and subsequent ridiculous amounts charged for these 'Designer breeds' than they do with the actual selling of pups in general on here.

I voted No to the question should we ban puppy ads. There are some responsible breeders out there that carry out the health checks and charge what is considered a fair price for their pups, why should these people suffer a .org advertising ban simply because there are dodgy dealers out there? Rather it would be more preferable to regulate the adverts and their content a bit more!
Banning advertising on .org will do absolutely nothing to help prevent backyard breeders breeding any breed to any breed, failing to health check and charging ridiculous amounts to naive, silly people who are stupid enough to fall for the 'designer breed' label.
There will always be the sellers because there will always be the buyers.

I'd rather see a UK ban on so called 'designer breeds'. People cross all sorts of breeds and make their own names up as to what they are - it's just wrong! and yet people fall for it, they actually believe the patter that is given to them about the rarity of the breed or how sort after it is. No questions are asked about the temperament of this 'rare' breed, they are actually stupid enough to believe / assume that they take on all the good traits of both parents breeds with no worries or concerns about the negative traits and how they're affected by the cross or the health concerns.
I have nothing against Mongrels (as these' designer breeds' actually are) per se. They can make long lived, happy dogs. Especially those that are a real Heinz 57 as the strains of breeds are so diluted but to give them a fancy name and a hefty pricetag...................
In my book if it's recognised by the UK kennel club it's a breed, if it's not then except under special circumstances it ain't worth a jot.

I would also have to say that IMO a reduction in breeding dogs, backyard or professional will not see an increase in dogs rehomed from pounds.

[achingale]

I do not think the ads should be banned simply because it is a choice to be made. None of us have to buy a spaniel/yorkie cross for £450 - I for one would never entertain the idea, nor would I buy a golden doodle, labradoodle etc as they are not true bloodlines. Anything that is a cross should be sold at a low price, but that brings in the issue of who buys it, is the puppy going to a good home etc. There are so many rescue dogs needing a good home, why not look there first and if nothing takes your fancy then go and see about purchasing a puppy. A good breeder will be on hand for any queries for many, many years, not just months, and they will ask how the dog is doing. They will also provide a puppy pack with 4 weeks free insurance, instructions on feeding, toileting, exercise and so on. It is our choice to buy or not to buy.

[_Ju_]

Banning advertising of puppies will not change the way people are breeding them. What will change the way people are breeding them is if people looking to aquire a dog become alot more demanding in terms of what the breeders do to make sure their dogs are healthy. All the necessary health tests will never become mandatory because it will make the animals far to expensive. If they did become mandatory, then there would be an incentive for an illegal "underground puppy market", which would be terrible in terms of animal welfare.
Making dogs registrable to the breeder is laughable. A dogs life expectancy is for 15 years. What is being asked, by registering to the breeder ( so they can be returned if found abandoned) is in effect a 15 year guarantee on every puppy. And it removes the prime responsibility from the person who bought the dog who should have known what was entailed in the care of an animal. All dogs should be required to be microchipped. And searching the electoral role to find owners who abandone their animals should be made possible. With computers the way they are, it would also be relatively easy to set up a way of signaling owners who are "in the habit" of aquiring dogs to then give them up ( the puppy-for-christmas type), and maybe they could be forbidden to keep animals on welfare grounds ( if the law were to change).
But the biggest incentive to change the habits of breeders are the habits of their clients. If you are looking for a puppy, insist on knowing the parents, or minimum the mother. Never ever remove a puppy from it's mother under 8 weeks of age. No matter that the breeder is telling you the vet said it was ok. Ok does not mean best or even right. Don't buy a puppy if you suspect serial breeding ( people who breed sucessive litters to turn a quick buck). Go ask your vet first when looking for a puppy. They will have an idea of people who have litters and a fair idea of the animals health. It is better to find a breeder that has been reccomended to you by someone you know than through an advertisment. Find out what the genetic potencial for disease is in the breed you want then decide if not health testing is something you are willing to risk. Maybe if enough potential dog owners become more discriminating then there will be less indscriminate breeding.

[roadbowler]

I voted no because do people really need to be policed on this issue? If people aren't responsible enough to make thorough checks on the animals they are buying or wise enough to understand that any animal of any breed has an individual character and may have character or health issues/problems they may find challenging in the animal they are taking on they probably are not responsible enough to have a dog in the first place. I do NOT agree with lifetime guarantees to take dogs back either! You take on a dog, you deal with the dogs issues! What next, I buy a car on the .org and expect a lifetime guarantee for the seller to take it back if things go wrong? In my view, dogs aren't ornaments, they are family members and I'm dead against all this buying fashionable pets then flogging them on when owners canna deal or they aren't flavour of the month anymore. The issue of puppy ads really comes down to peoples responsibility, as been said before it isn't going to stop people trying to sell dogs through other routes or change breeding habits.

[lindsaymcc]

We got our puppy from the Org - but for free. His litter was being rehomed to forever homes - not for monetary gain.

I dont agree with puppy sales unless they are KC reg/health tested/chipped etc, but I dont see a problem with rehoming a litter for free.

[Stefan]

Does anybody know why puppy sales were banned in the past ? I remember that they were but never knew why.

[Tilter]

I voted to ban advertising pups for sale. Definitely. A good breeder wouldn't need to advertise on the org - he'd have a waiting list for any pups he bred. Besides, genuinely reputable breeders are so few and far between it would not penalise them, but the 99.9% of breeders irresponsibly producing yet more puppies for money should have to pay to advertise and not get it for free on the org.

I don't care if the org banning puppy ads makes no difference whatsoever. They should do so on principle. Lots of forums do not allow advertising the sale of sentient beings and the org should also take the lead in this.

[Tilter]

Does anybody know why puppy sales were banned in the past ?

Maybe for all the reasons you have mentioned above?

[Niall Fernie]

Puppy sales were banned due to the rules on business advertising at the time.

As we could not distinguish private sellers from breeders we banned them all.

When we decided to soften our rules on business advertising due to the downturn in the economy, we also softened our rules on puppy sales.

[Tilter]

Puppy sales were banned due to the rules on business advertising at the time.
As we could not distinguish private sellers from breeders we banned them all.
When we decided to soften our rules on business advertising due to the downturn in the economy, we also softened our rules on puppy sales.

Niall, many thanks for the explanation.

With all respect, I would say the economic downturn is precisely the reason puppy sales advertising should be banned on the org. Because of the economic downturn, far more dogs are coming into rescue kennels to be rehomed and, because kennels are full to bursting and staff and volunteers stretched to the limit, many many more dogs are simply being abandoned. It is also a fact that puppy sales are down due to the economy and we're seeing more puppies in rescue because their breeders are unable to find buyers for them.

These dogs aren't cars or computers but will hopefully walk this earth for the next 12 or 14 years. It's up to us what kind of life they have.