Why independence?

[John Little]

It's an observation made bymore than one that we are in a rotten state.

I have to say that's not my perception at all. We have all sorts of things that work and a standard of living among the top 8% in the world.

If we were like Somalia or Afghanistan or somewhere like that then I could understand - but what sort of rotten state are we in?

[Corrie 3]

The first thing an Independent Scotland would have to do is attract big Industry to provide good, well paid jobs. This could be done by undercutting England's rates of taxes on Business Corporation Tax, local rating taxes etc,etc. I would also go for no tax at all on any company wanting to explore for new oil! I am sure there are lots of ways to attract new business to Scotland. It would also need to boost tourism to make Scotland even more attractive to visitors. On the down side it would also need to weed out all the non-jobs in such places as hospitals, the NHS as a whole,councils and Govt Depts. And of course weed out all fraudulent claims for benefits.
I am sure Alex and Co have some idea's of making it work and I look forward to reading all about them in the near future!

C3.....

[weezer 316]

So who is to blame for our ills and what is to be done about it? If we've ended up in the rotten state we are as a result of being part of the UK (not due to The English) surely whoever has been running the show is to blame? What if we are tired of the same old crap and want a change?

So what are you so afraid of? Why do you have no faith in the ability of Scots (of whatever nationality) to run their own affairs?

The concept of 'National' is becoming less relevant in every sense but that of an individual's identity by the day. Why must we, as a discrete country, have to remain bolted to any particular other country? If (as has been repeatedly pointed out) our marriage isn't working out and we're sinking into a pit of ill-health, poverty and misery, why shouldn't we look at forming a new marriage where we can flourish? Are you saying that things could only get worse if we were a discrete part of Europe in our own right? On what basis do you claim that, other than your own fear of change?

Why is a relationship with England so important and one with Germany not? Germany has made a pretty good job of re-integrating the old communist East in only 20 years, why hasn't our arrangement of 300 years worked to our advantage?

I'm sure that England could get on OK without us. And you could go and live there quite easily, come back and visit every now and then.

Again it comes back to you making some incredible assumptions. First of all, we are to blame for our ills! Scotland and its people are known as the sick man of Eurpope. Its not govt policy that has caused us to love chippies abd drinkig until we fall down, its scottish culture. Dare I say it, you and me are to blame.

Change is fine, if it benefits you. Why would you amend a union that has been nothing less than a staggering success? Scotland as part of the UK has a real voice in the world. A massive voice actually, far far greater than it would on its own.

Where do we significantly differ from the English so much that independence is the only solution? I cant think of anything! We have the same ideas on law and order, commerce, believe in a social security system, speak the same language. have the same pastimes with the likes of football and rugby, share a common history stretching back a millenia and are so intermingled the idea of celts and anglo saxons has long since passed except for people in places like here!

IN short, almost noe of the issues mentioned in previous posts have been the the unions fault, so perhaps you cold clarify why leaving the union would fix these?

[John Little]

Scotland, it strikes me, has been a prime mover in UK politics for a pretty long time. Yes its the SNP calling the shots right now, but I had forgotten that Labour had its roots in Scotland too. And the first Labour member of Parliament on the ILP ticket was a certain Kier Hardie, elected in 1892 for West Ham.

Then his successor as the leader of the Scottish miners was Ramsay McDonald...

I wonder if part of the problem here is that Labour has lost sight of its Scottishness?

The ILP seems to have a wider brief; http://www.independentlabour.org.uk/main/

I suppose the line of my thinking goes something like this...

Does the fashion of the times change the way people think?

I mean the likes of John MacLean, David Kirkwood and Willie Gallacher were radicals, socialists, and internationalists. And they had the solid support of the whole of Clydeside and the coalfields.

I wonder what they would have made of the SNP?

[Better Out Than In]

This is a fascinating discussion. Just to set the scene I am English by birth (and mostly accent), I have lived and worked in several countries and lived in Scotland for some 35 years (most of my life) and over 30 in Caithness - which I adore; both people and country. I have some Scottish ancestry.

I am also in two minds - assuming I am even allowed a vote. I can understand how proud it would make the Scottish people but would it be good for the nation?

Scotland makes most of its own laws and is supervised by European law. You could press to increase the extent of this both with and without independence.

Scotland would be finacially independent, sustainable even rich. Would it? From figures I remember from a few years ago Scotland recieved more in finacial support from the UK than it gave (including oil revenues) but the author's admitted after extensive research it was hard to separate out the data as the Scottish economy was so intertwined with the UK's. I think you need to be careful about quoting isolated statistics showing how much better off Scotland would be - you could be misleading yourself. I am sure there are other statistics given the completely opposite picture.

Many of the governing bodies for Scotland are already independent of the UK - SEPA for example. It would not be too difficult to extend this with or without independence.

All Scotland's ills can be blamed on the English and the union. I doubt that's true but I can understand how the presumptioness(!) and dominance of the English in the UK can be so annoying to the Scottish. Even things like the BBC News can be like a red rag to a bull sometimes. Actually many English admire the pride and independence that Scotland has and are jealous.

Scotland would offer incentives to encourage businesses to set up here. Well that goes on now in competition with other nations and with independence would just add England as an additional competitor.

Scotland would have a direct voice at EU (assuming allowed to join), UN etc. Well this is true but my impression is Scotland is already very influential at these conjunctions - such as impact on EU fishing policy. Would being independent from the UK increase or decrease that voice?

Stop Trident. Well many of the English, Northern Irish and Welsh would agree.

Independent defence. Hmmm? Would it be affordable, effective or would we need to rely on others to bail us out?

There are two main things that concern me: (a) how the hell would you unravel it all and to the equitable satisfaction of all parties. (b) And would Scotland be finacially viable long term. The UK as a nation punches above its weight with business and industrial connections that penetrate world wide. A lot of that might be killed off. Look at what happened to Iceland. It went from being rich and affluent to being penniless almost within months. It had no depth, fiscal inertia and diversity to fall back on. Scotland could similarly oscillate from rich to poor.

So I can understand how the heart would want indepedence but could it work practically? Would Scotland become poor or rich?

Just as an aside, as not relevent to discussion, but did not Scotland joined the union in the firts place was because it was broke?

[Andy]

I have listened for years as the SNP have gone on about Ireland and how they manage why do we not hear now about how Ireland manage now and may I also say that yes I love Scotland and would never move, do I want independence no I think it would be suicide but as in all democracies I would go with the majority.

[HighlandBadBoyz]

Run you fools.

[John Little]

Intriguing - but which fools?

And to where?

[oldmarine]

I have found all the postings on this thread quite interesting. As for pride in country I was quite proud of my country, the USA, and fought for her during WW2.
Since then I have become somewhat disappointed in the young people. They no longer appear to have pride in their country. We used to have a strong work ethnic but when people discovered they could get something for nothing the pride in country appeared to decline.

I have read the history of England & Scotland up to the time they became the UK. I have visited both England & Scotland. Mostly Scotland when I worked as an Electronics Engineer at the Naval Base. I enjoyed both countries, but had a preference for the highlands probably due to my spending more time there. I prefer to stay out of the politics but I found people in both places very friendly. I toured both countries with my wife and children. They also enjoyed being in both countries.

[rich]

I must have been asleep while this debate unfolded.
First of all the Union of the Parliaments was not a union of equals. The Scots were far ahead of the English in that they wished to sell their country - Scotland. To get the highest pirice possible was in my opinion a laudable enterprise. The English were taken for suckers. No sooner has Scotland solemnly handed over the keys to the English at the front door than they came right back again throught the back door.
The Scots retained their legal system, their church, their currency. They got free trade with England's colonies. They were big winners.
But its the psychological effect of this that is so wonderful.
In the next century and a half nationalism became the religion of Europe (and Ireland). But the Scots were never nationalists after the Act of Union - they became Cosmopolitans. And having sold the country once they are quite likely to sell it again. That is the Scottish advantage. The old joke was "how do you recognize a Hungarian? "They are the only people able to go into a revolving door behind you and come out ahead of you."
Nonsense. That was the Scots. And they invented the door!

[ducati]

Well. I've yet to hear any good practical reason/s for Independence. A lot of yerning to be free and hating the English.

Don't think that will cut it somehow.

[John Little]

May I respectfully point out that it will actually cut it - if the majority of Scots want it...

[weezer 316]

May I respectfully point out that it will actually cut it - if the majority of Scots want it...

Oh jesus your right! It will cut it! Scotland is a byword for ignorance sometimes. I will absolutely guarentee you that Alex will spend the next four years yelling about wesminster this and that and how they are shafting us. Im alost serious when I say I hope all they chippies and whiskys catch up with him

[ducati]

May I respectfully point out that it will actually cut it - if the majority of Scots want it...

Yes of course but I'm counting on good sense prevailing....or is that not a good strategy?

[John Little]

Yes of course but I'm counting on good sense prevailing....or is that not a good strategy?

Oh come on Duke - this is POLITICS we are talking about here!!!

[gleeber]

Well. I've yet to hear any good practical reason/s for Independence. A lot of yerning to be free and hating the English.

Don't think that will cut it somehow.

May I respectfully suggest you remove the cotton wool from your loogs and stick it in your mooth. Works even for tories.

[ducati]

May I respectfully suggest you remove the cotton wool from your loogs and stick it in your mooth. Works even for tories.

Yep that's this thread!

[squidge]

Ducati, I am not sure where you see hatred for the English. I don't see that within this discussion. In fact the whole independence thing is not about hatred for English people but a desire to see Scotland governed by the people who live here, regardless of their background, evident in the different languages used in the Oath at holyrood yesterday.

[Better Out Than In]

When this thread started up I thought it would degenerate to become "knocking the English" too and am happily surprised that, on the whole, it is an informed and intelligent debate. Besides its not about the past.

[ducati]

Ducati, I am not sure where you see hatred for the English. I don't see that within this discussion. In fact the whole independence thing is not about hatred for English people but a desire to see Scotland governed by the people who live here, regardless of their background, evident in the different languages used in the Oath at holyrood yesterday.

There is a definite undercurrent.