Why independence?

[bekisman]

This thread seems to be getting rather heated, and quite a bit of 'England' kicking going on, I see London's been mentioned; is that the little city which has twice the population of Scotland?..
I'm English (more or less) but I've been living up here for decades, and after living/working in over 30 countries I do feel 'at home' here..
Blaming England for all it's ills, it might be an idea to look at the following - I was sent this a couple of years ago, and maybe it's out of date?. It's not posted here as an insult, but to put folks feet firmly back onto the ground.

All the counties of the UK have problems, someone mentioned cost of fuel was thorough Westminster, and looks towards Scandinavia; Norway has the most expensive fuel in the whole of Europe.

Independence? I'll wait and see - but don't kill the messenger.

1. Children in Scotland continue to have Europe's highest rate of tooth decay.
2. The rates of suicide in Scotland are the highest in the UK, almost double those in England.
3. Scotland has one of the highest death rates from Coronary Heart Disease in the western world
4. Obesity levels in Scotland are the second highest in the developed world behind the USA.
5. The west of Scotland has the highest rate of drink-related benefit claimants in the UK.
6. Men and women in Scotland are twice as likely to die an alcohol-related death as people in the UK as a whole
7. The number of obese children in Scotland is running at double the UK average
8 Scotland has one of the highest rates of stroke in the world
9 Scotland has the highest overall death rate for cancer in the UK
10 Scotland has the highest rate of deaths from lung cancer in Europe
11 The cancer maps show that bowel cancer rates for men and women were higher than average in Scotland
12 Cancers associated with drinking alcohol - of the lip, mouth and throat - were again more common in Scotland
13 Scotland also had higher than average rates of bladder cancer in women and in northern Scotland there was a higher than average incidence of breast cancer
14 Scotland has the second highest murder rate in western Europe and Scots are more than three times more likely to be murdered than people in England and Wales
15 Glasgow is in fact the murder capital of Europe, with about 70 killings each year
16 Unemployment in Scotland has increased despite a fall across the UK as a whole
17 Scotland has some of the worst rates of tobacco related illness in western Europe, and the highest smoking rates in the UK.
18 Scotland has amongst the worst child poverty rates and the worst diet and the worst dietary illness in Europe
19 Scotland has one of the worst conviction rates for Rape
20. Scottish Drivers have worst eyesight in Britain
21. Scotland is the worst place in the UK to be deaf
22. Scotland has the highest rate of E coli 0157 infection in the UK
23. Scotland worst in UK for attacks on police
24. Legal protection for hate crime on the grounds of sexual orientation or gender identity in Scotland is way behind the rest of the UK.
25. Scotland still has one of the lowest organ donation rates in the EU
26. Scotland has one of the highest prevalences of injecting drug use in Europe
27. About 50,000 people in Scotland are infected with Hepatitis C - double the UK average
28. Pets in Scotland and Wales suffer from the highest UK rates of two major diseases linked to poor diet and lack of exercise, heart disease and diabetes
29. Unwanted pregnancies rates are higher than in most other Western European countries


1. http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_4465000/4465170.stm

2. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/articles/hsq/HSQ31suicide_trends.pdf

3. http://www.isdscotland.org/isd/2438.html
4. http://wishingwellness.co.uk/news/world-news/obesity-levels-in-scotland-are-second-highest.html
5. http://www.aa-uk.org.uk/alcoholics-anonymous-reviews/2007/05/scotland-tops-uk-for-those-on-benefits.html
6. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6386173.stm
7. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20060917/ai_n16733679/pg_3
8. http://www.stroke.org.uk/in_your_area/scotland/index.html
9. http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/news/archive/newsarchive/2007/july/18226486
10. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/1875390.stm
11. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/2005/07/11/ncanc06.xml
12. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/06/ncanc06.xml
13. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/06/ncanc06.xml
14. http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/scotnews07/070716_murder.html
15. http://onepearsallandhisbooks.blogspot.com/2005/09/glasgow-murder-city.html
16. http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_6272000/6272073.stm
17. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/scotland/3190353.stm
18. http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/schoolmeals/Even_tatties.pdf
19. http://www.zerotolerance.org.uk/news/article.php?id=45
20. http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/publicwebsite/public_scotnews041027.hcsp#P2_91
21. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/transcripts/yy_20030212.pdf
22. http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=3318597
23. http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=3280326
24. http://www.stonewallscotland.org.uk/scotland/information_bank/hate_crime/default.asp
25.http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1962439.0.Radical_overhaul_to_organ_do nation_system.php
26. http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2002/07/15074/8613
27. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4295116.stm
28. http://www.ukpets.co.uk/?section=Home&sub=News&method=fetch&item=927
29. http://www.thpc.scot.nhs.uk/Publications/Annual%20Report01/chap4.htm

[Tubthumper]

So Beks, as you have pointed out above, being part of the Union (I'm not blaming The English) has resulted in Scotland becoming a joke and nothing that's happened as a result of the Union during my lifetime has improved matters.

Scottish politicians in Westminster haven't changed anything, nor have the UK parties in all their glory. Nor have endless initiatives, investments, spin doctors, consultants or witch-doctors. There has to be a point when we say 'enough is enough'. It's time to really look at what we want to be and how we can become it. And if it means pain for our neighbours, then so be it. And I think that our neighbours need to take a good hard look at themselves and see what they want to become.

[Phill]

http://youtu.be/P5aawSdrCMk

From our friend (and fellow orger(?)) Peter Dow.

[squidge]

Tubs you are right. Scotland should be looking to the future and the sort of country we want it to be and the values and society we aspire to and if independence is the way to get there then that is where my cross will go.

[Corrie 3]

You my friend are a dinosaur. The world is coming together, not moving apart. You belong to the 20th century

And you my friend are an Ostrich with your head buried in the sand if you think the world is coming together.
Weezer, why dont you save yourself a load of typing and just vote NO when the time comes, you obviously have no faith in your country or its people and prefer to stay as one of Englands poodles!!

C3......

[John Little]

Well I suppose that getting heated shows the depth of feeling over this matter. I have been enjoying this thread- it is enlightening and informative. But Ostriches, poodles and dinosaurs?

A zoo might pull in a lot of tourists though...

But it's all helped me greatly.

I think Mr Salmond is wrong to think of holding a referendum in four years. There is clearly an awful lot of pressure both ways over this issue and to allow it to fester is not good for Scotland or indeed for the UK.

He should have a referendum now.

I also think that this will not go away; that it should be built into an Act of Parliament for Scotland that there should be a referendum every 30 years so that the next generation will always get its say.

Much healthier and much more democratic.

[NickInTheNorth]

I also think that this will not go away; that it should be built into an Act of Parliament for Scotland that there should be a referendum every 30 years so that the next generation will always get its say.

Much healthier and much more democratic.

but John no parliament in the UK can bind it's successors to do anything - that's democracy for you

[John Little]

but John no parliament in the UK can bind it's successors to do anything - that's democracy for you

Which is why we need a written constitution. If Mr Salmond can bring that about then he would be doing us all a favour. And a referendum built into a UK constitution would be binding.

[weezer 316]

And you my friend are an Ostrich with your head buried in the sand if you think the world is coming together.
Weezer, why dont you save yourself a load of typing and just vote NO when the time comes, you obviously have no faith in your country or its people and prefer to stay as one of Englands poodles!!

C3......

There is the heart of the issue. Its an identity crisis. You think we are "English poodles"! Im not prepared to risk the future of our country quite simply because you and many like you have an inferiority complex!

And yes the world is moving together. The EU is getting more powerful by the day, bodies like the WTO and OECD organise and foster co-operation and integration on an international scale. Yet again we are far far far more powerful as part of the UK. Nationlists wont be happy until scotland is independent and there is a draw bridge between us and the rest of the world, and we can then sit in splendid isolation from other cultures and blame them for our ills.

[weezer 316]

This thread seems to be getting rather heated, and quite a bit of 'England' kicking going on, I see London's been mentioned; is that the little city which has twice the population of Scotland?..
I'm English (more or less) but I've been living up here for decades, and after living/working in over 30 countries I do feel 'at home' here..
Blaming England for all it's ills, it might be an idea to look at the following - I was sent this a couple of years ago, and maybe it's out of date?. It's not posted here as an insult, but to put folks feet firmly back onto the ground.

All the counties of the UK have problems, someone mentioned cost of fuel was thorough Westminster, and looks towards Scandinavia; Norway has the most expensive fuel in the whole of Europe.

Independence? I'll wait and see - but don't kill the messenger.

1. Children in Scotland continue to have Europe's highest rate of tooth decay.
2. The rates of suicide in Scotland are the highest in the UK, almost double those in England.
3. Scotland has one of the highest death rates from Coronary Heart Disease in the western world
4. Obesity levels in Scotland are the second highest in the developed world behind the USA.
5. The west of Scotland has the highest rate of drink-related benefit claimants in the UK.
6. Men and women in Scotland are twice as likely to die an alcohol-related death as people in the UK as a whole
7. The number of obese children in Scotland is running at double the UK average
8 Scotland has one of the highest rates of stroke in the world
9 Scotland has the highest overall death rate for cancer in the UK
10 Scotland has the highest rate of deaths from lung cancer in Europe
11 The cancer maps show that bowel cancer rates for men and women were higher than average in Scotland
12 Cancers associated with drinking alcohol - of the lip, mouth and throat - were again more common in Scotland
13 Scotland also had higher than average rates of bladder cancer in women and in northern Scotland there was a higher than average incidence of breast cancer
14 Scotland has the second highest murder rate in western Europe and Scots are more than three times more likely to be murdered than people in England and Wales
15 Glasgow is in fact the murder capital of Europe, with about 70 killings each year
16 Unemployment in Scotland has increased despite a fall across the UK as a whole
17 Scotland has some of the worst rates of tobacco related illness in western Europe, and the highest smoking rates in the UK.
18 Scotland has amongst the worst child poverty rates and the worst diet and the worst dietary illness in Europe
19 Scotland has one of the worst conviction rates for Rape
20. Scottish Drivers have worst eyesight in Britain
21. Scotland is the worst place in the UK to be deaf
22. Scotland has the highest rate of E coli 0157 infection in the UK
23. Scotland worst in UK for attacks on police
24. Legal protection for hate crime on the grounds of sexual orientation or gender identity in Scotland is way behind the rest of the UK.
25. Scotland still has one of the lowest organ donation rates in the EU
26. Scotland has one of the highest prevalences of injecting drug use in Europe
27. About 50,000 people in Scotland are infected with Hepatitis C - double the UK average
28. Pets in Scotland and Wales suffer from the highest UK rates of two major diseases linked to poor diet and lack of exercise, heart disease and diabetes
29. Unwanted pregnancies rates are higher than in most other Western European countries


1. http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_4465000/4465170.stm

2. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/articles/hsq/HSQ31suicide_trends.pdf

3. http://www.isdscotland.org/isd/2438.html
4. http://wishingwellness.co.uk/news/world-news/obesity-levels-in-scotland-are-second-highest.html
5. http://www.aa-uk.org.uk/alcoholics-anonymous-reviews/2007/05/scotland-tops-uk-for-those-on-benefits.html
6. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6386173.stm
7. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20060917/ai_n16733679/pg_3
8. http://www.stroke.org.uk/in_your_area/scotland/index.html
9. http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/news/archive/newsarchive/2007/july/18226486
10. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/1875390.stm
11. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/2005/07/11/ncanc06.xml
12. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/06/ncanc06.xml
13. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/06/ncanc06.xml
14. http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/scotnews07/070716_murder.html
15. http://onepearsallandhisbooks.blogspot.com/2005/09/glasgow-murder-city.html
16. http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_6272000/6272073.stm
17. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/scotland/3190353.stm
18. http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/schoolmeals/Even_tatties.pdf
19. http://www.zerotolerance.org.uk/news/article.php?id=45
20. http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/publicwebsite/public_scotnews041027.hcsp#P2_91
21. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/transcripts/yy_20030212.pdf
22. http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=3318597
23. http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=3280326
24. http://www.stonewallscotland.org.uk/scotland/information_bank/hate_crime/default.asp
25.http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.1962439.0.Radical_overhaul_to_organ_do nation_system.php
26. http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2002/07/15074/8613
27. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4295116.stm
28. http://www.ukpets.co.uk/?section=Home&sub=News&method=fetch&item=927
29. http://www.thpc.scot.nhs.uk/Publications/Annual%20Report01/chap4.htm

Clearly independence would solve all of this. Dont you know that maggie thatcher is to blame for the ridiculous amounts of alcohol we as a nation cosume? Its also those fiendish english lads charming all out lassies into bed thats the cause of the pregnancy rate!

Independence will change none of this. We need to address this ourselves, regardless of where the budget is decieded.

[Corrie 3]

I have no complex weezer.................I KNOW we are better than our UK cousins!!!
You seem to think there is safety in numbers, what are you frightened of ? Being invaded by Russia?....
I think you have no stomach to live a better life !!

C3.....

[weezer 316]

I have no complex weezer.................I KNOW we are better than our UK cousins!!!
You seem to think there is safety in numbers, what are you frightened of ? Being invaded by Russia?....
I think you have no stomach to live a better life !!

C3.....

You know! We are now better were as before we were english poodles. Hypocrisy as standard from nationalists. Make up you mind!

You know the arguments for Independence are far far outweighed by those against, in just about every sphere and it basically boils down to we should run our own affairs because we are a different country. A very very weak argument indeed. Its akin to arguing against marriage on the account it involves 2 independent people who should.

Any retort possibly on the economic, cultural or political implications of independence?

[pmcd]

Confused and confronted by a series of posturings based equally on animals and statistics, I am now totally rabbit in headlights - but, through the glare, some truths emerge

a) The Scottish nation already exists as an identifiable entity and going concern, and is highly regarded worldwide.

b) When things go wrong, the Scots (who actually are quite fond of the English as individuals) blame Westminster, representing England.

c) History adds to the rich mix. Old battles are quoted (interestingly, we carry no such baggage with Germany or Japan, and that ding dong was less than a century ago!)

d) Only insecure Scots demand a total separation from their neighbour, England, as seen by polls which indicate the split for independence is 33.3-66.6%, give or take.

e) There should be a referendum. Alex wants to hold it later, because he knows he can screw more out of Westminster if he waits longer, which is a perfectly legitimate enterprise.

f) The costs, administration, counter-charging, infrastructure changes and governance of a stand-alone Scotland militate towards Independence remaining a noble, but unreachable, destination. The dream is much more attractive than the mundane nature of the reality. To travel hopefully is often better than to arrive.

g) The current (and contrived) stand-off allows the English to remain the great and current "they". The "they" are those who "suppress" the lower orders by making them work for money, obey laws, and generally behave within the customs applied by general society. Everybody needs a "they" to blame". It stops them from having to blame "us", or even "me". "They" are ALWAYS to blame. And no matter where you sit in society, there is always someone there to be the "they"!

h) Flower of Scotland contains (apart from a bum note, when played on the pipes) a great misunderstanding "For we will arise now, and BE THE NATION AGAIN". Scotland, we already are the Nation. We don't have to feel second rate. We are the land of world-class inventors, educators, scientists, earth-movers, engineers, soldiers, entertainers, architects, artists exports, the most beautiful scenery in which to actually live, and whisky.

[John Little]

That's a fine post.

[The Music Monster]

h) Flower of Scotland contains (apart from a bum note, when played on the pipes)

Yep! That's what you get for playing a piece with accidentals on a one key instrument!!!

In terms of what I'd vote - I don't know, I've seen nothing on here to settle my vote one way or another yet. Good to see that the usual suspects are diving in with as much ferocity as normal - and when all else fails they're still making personal attacks!

[weezer 316]

Yep! That's what you get for playing a piece with accidentals on a one key instrument!!!

In terms of what I'd vote - I don't know, I've seen nothing on here to settle my vote one way or another yet. Good to see that the usual suspects are diving in with as much ferocity as normal - and when all else fails they're still making personal attacks!

I think this has been pointed out about 8 times before, dont mistake someone attacking your opinion and/or belief or even its foundations with a personal attack. Me calling you a c*** is a personal attack, me attacking your want for independence and your argument for it isnt.

And a very good point pmcd! I wonder who alex would blame if we were independent

[RecQuery]

Is there anyone posting here who can actually have their minds change or are we all just demagogues.

http://waleshome.org/2011/05/so-why-...-worth-saving/ - has an interesting take on The Union, with many references to Scotland.

My own take is the UK is worried about losing its seats, vetos and prestige, which is actually quite likely to happen should any part of it vote for independence and EU 'United Kingdom' region be redrawn.

[Tubthumper]

And yes the world is moving together. The EU is getting more powerful by the day, bodies like the WTO and OECD organise and foster co-operation and integration on an international scale. Yet again we are far far far more powerful as part of the UK. Nationlists wont be happy until scotland is independent and there is a draw bridge between us and the rest of the world, and we can then sit in splendid isolation from other cultures and blame them for our ills.

So who is to blame for our ills and what is to be done about it? If we've ended up in the rotten state we are as a result of being part of the UK (not due to The English) surely whoever has been running the show is to blame? What if we are tired of the same old crap and want a change?

So what are you so afraid of? Why do you have no faith in the ability of Scots (of whatever nationality) to run their own affairs?

The concept of 'National' is becoming less relevant in every sense but that of an individual's identity by the day. Why must we, as a discrete country, have to remain bolted to any particular other country? If (as has been repeatedly pointed out) our marriage isn't working out and we're sinking into a pit of ill-health, poverty and misery, why shouldn't we look at forming a new marriage where we can flourish? Are you saying that things could only get worse if we were a discrete part of Europe in our own right? On what basis do you claim that, other than your own fear of change?

Why is a relationship with England so important and one with Germany not? Germany has made a pretty good job of re-integrating the old communist East in only 20 years, why hasn't our arrangement of 300 years worked to our advantage?

I'm sure that England could get on OK without us. And you could go and live there quite easily, come back and visit every now and then.

[neilsermk1]

RecQuery, I am still open to persuasion on this matter. On the one hand I see the desire for self determination in Scotland, and on the other the disadvantages for a more devolved, or completly independant Scotland.
Yes I am proud to be Scottish, and in the achievements of our forefathers. However I do not believe I am niaive enough to suppose that Independance will come at no cost. Is that a price I am wiling to pay? well that is still open to debate, and I have not yet seen any convincing arguement on this thread to persuade me either way.

[neilsermk1]

So who is to blame for our ills and what is to be done about it? If we've ended up in the rotten state we are as a result of being part of the UK (not due to The English) surely whoever has been running the show is to blame? What if we are tired of the same old crap and want a change?

So what are you so afraid of? Why do you have no faith in the ability of Scots (of whatever nationality) to run their own affairs?

The concept of 'National' is becoming less relevant in every sense but that of an individual's identity by the day. Why must we, as a discrete country, have to remain bolted to any particular other country? If (as has been repeatedly pointed out) our marriage isn't working out and we're sinking into a pit of ill-health, poverty and misery, why shouldn't we look at forming a new marriage where we can flourish? Are you saying that things could only get worse if we were a discrete part of Europe in our own right? On what basis do you claim that, other than your own fear of change?

Why is a relationship with England so important and one with Germany not? Germany has made a pretty good job of re-integrating the old communist East in only 20 years, why hasn't our arrangement of 300 years worked to our advantage?

I'm sure that England could get on OK without us. And you could go and live there quite easily, come back and visit every now and then.

Hi Tubs, I am bit worried about all this talk of divorce, and marriage on this thread :-))

I take your point about all the negatives with respect to health, poverty etc. I just wonder how an Independant Scotland will resolve the issues. I think you might argue that we couldn't do any worse than the current arrangments, but i wonder why we feel unable to resolve the issues within a United Kingdom framework.