Why independence?

[weezer 316]

I understand your point but just because some people of Scottish descent happen to hold positions of power in the UK that doesn't mean Scotland has a loud voice or disproportionate influence. In terms of population or seats as I've said already Scotland can exert no control it can talk and suggest things but it can just as easily be ignored. Scotland can't live vicariously through the UK.

Well I hate to answer with another question, but what influence do you expect a scotsman with scotland backing him to have as opposed to a scotsman with the full might of the UK backing him?

Infact there is little point in asking because we both know the answer to that question.

Could I also ask you to clarify what exactly is special about the needs of scotland as opposed to the rest of the UK that warrants independence?

[The Bruce]

Firstly I’d rather be poor and Scottish than, well, poor and British. (I was going to say Rich and British, but is anyone richer under this current UK government?)
And why does it have to be a decision of the brain and not the heart? There are enough people in Scotland who care passionately enough about it to make it work no matter what the world throws at us.


All this talk about national debt and RBS being propped up by the UK government, does it really make any difference to you or me?

I’ll be voting for independence.

The ConDem coalition recently announced spending on the rail network, most of it in the south of England. Now that’s fair enough, most of the UKs population is in the south of England, but not 75% and that’s how much of the money allocated for the upgrade is going there. 75%. It’s that kind of things that makes me want independence.

It’s the poll tax being introduced here a year early. We protested and rioted and told the world it was an unfair tax. England refused to listen and when it was introduced there a year later and they protested, only then did the government listen. As equals in this union our voices should have been heard, but they weren’t. We are easily and often ignored. But since then it’s been harder and harder to ignore us, and now, with a majority SNP government in power despite Labour setting up the rules to avoid exactly that, we go from strength to strength. It’s those attempts by the UK government to keep us down, to save power for themselves that make me want it more.

It’s David Cameron saying that he will oppose independence as vigorously as he can that makes me want it more.

And back to being poor. Scottish waters hold oil. We’ll benefit from that. And if the British government can assign a proportion of national debt to us then we can also claim a rebate on 40 years of lost revenue from the theft of our oil.

As for our ability to veto the UN and Nato and the EU, is that all you want to be a part of it for? So you can be an obstacle and become disliked? Surely these organisations are there for us to join and contribute to positively?

And again, using figures to show how many people have left Scotland just demonstrates that we’ve been kept down to the point were there are no opportunities for our kids here because the UK government did it’s very best to sell off all of Scotland’s assets and close the country down during the Thatcher years. The best paid jobs in Scotland might be in the south, but they are still in Scotland! And the young do not all follow the lights to where the streets are paved with gold. I have always worked in Scotland from my first job at 15. I’d rather be underpaid in Scotland than be better paid and live in England. Not everyone is greedy for personal wealth.

But most of all it is the emotional desire to do the Wallace thing and have freeeeeedom. And you can vote with your heart. Your heads job isn’t to decide what you want, your heads job is to work out how to get what your heart wants. As I said before, there are enough great and talented people in Scotland who love this country, and not just Scots. Together we will make it work.

[theone]

[FONT=Times New Roman]And if the British government can assign a proportion of national debt to us then we can also claim a rebate on 40 years of lost revenue from the theft of our oil.

That is the most nonsensical statement I have heard in this debate.

[weezer 316]

Firstly I’d rather be poor and Scottish than, well, poor and British. (I was going to say Rich and British, but is anyone richer under this current UK government?)
And why does it have to be a decision of the brain and not the heart? There are enough people in Scotland who care passionately enough about it to make it work no matter what the world throws at us.


All this talk about national debt and RBS being propped up by the UK government, does it really make any difference to you or me?

I’ll be voting for independence.

The ConDem coalition recently announced spending on the rail network, most of it in the south of England. Now that’s fair enough, most of the UKs population is in the south of England, but not 75% and that’s how much of the money allocated for the upgrade is going there. 75%. It’s that kind of things that makes me want independence.

It’s the poll tax being introduced here a year early. We protested and rioted and told the world it was an unfair tax. England refused to listen and when it was introduced there a year later and they protested, only then did the government listen. As equals in this union our voices should have been heard, but they weren’t. We are easily and often ignored. But since then it’s been harder and harder to ignore us, and now, with a majority SNP government in power despite Labour setting up the rules to avoid exactly that, we go from strength to strength. It’s those attempts by the UK government to keep us down, to save power for themselves that make me want it more.

It’s David Cameron saying that he will oppose independence as vigorously as he can that makes me want it more.

And back to being poor. Scottish waters hold oil. We’ll benefit from that. And if the British government can assign a proportion of national debt to us then we can also claim a rebate on 40 years of lost revenue from the theft of our oil.

As for our ability to veto the UN and Nato and the EU, is that all you want to be a part of it for? So you can be an obstacle and become disliked? Surely these organisations are there for us to join and contribute to positively?

And again, using figures to show how many people have left Scotland just demonstrates that we’ve been kept down to the point were there are no opportunities for our kids here because the UK government did it’s very best to sell off all of Scotland’s assets and close the country down during the Thatcher years. The best paid jobs in Scotland might be in the south, but they are still in Scotland! And the young do not all follow the lights to where the streets are paved with gold. I have always worked in Scotland from my first job at 15. I’d rather be underpaid in Scotland than be better paid and live in England. Not everyone is greedy for personal wealth.

But most of all it is the emotional desire to do the Wallace thing and have freeeeeedom. And you can vote with your heart. Your heads job isn’t to decide what you want, your heads job is to work out how to get what your heart wants. As I said before, there are enough great and talented people in Scotland who love this country, and not just Scots. Together we will make it work.

Utterly full of holes. Just to summerise:

You suggest juts going for independence, regardless of whether we can support ourselves or not. Perhaps we should also build a gold saltire shaped new parliment regardless of how much it costs too. Im sure there are enough people who would like to make it a reality.

Secondly, Does RBS bailout make a difference to you? Yes, yes it does. The UK govt pumped £500bn into the banking system to shore it up. Thats about 7-8x scottish GDP. We would be Iceland times 10, literally, as we would have had to borrow about £280bn from somewhere. Cap in hand to the English we go. Or the EU. Or we could of course have went utterly bust.

Thirdly, there are huge section of scotland where things like Broadband wasnt economical without govt help. Im sure you didnt kick up a fuss when watten was enabled. Londoners could quite rightly point to subsidising scottish broadband, amongst other things.

Fourthly, if we claim 40 years of lost oil revenue, can England claim 40 years of lost City revenue? And where the hell are we going to find the trillion that would cost seeing as the city of london generates far far far more (about 6x more) than even the oil industry?

Lastly, And most pertinently, you have freedom, huge amounts of it. Dont forget that it was saved by the UK as a whole during the wars, not scotland. And dare I say England adn wales played a monumental part in that.

[squidge]

We argue that RBS bailout and oil revenue either support or undermine the argument for independence but surely the is an equal argument that says RBS may very well Not have got in the situation where it needed to be bailed out if Scotland was independent of the UK because the laws and the practices might very well have been different.

To make a decision about independence we need to look ahead and ensure that systems and regulations exist that make the banking crisis unlikely to happen
here. People talk about Iceland and Eire but Sweden and Norway and other small countries managed to avoid the worst of the problems. Scotland would need to be sure to address these issues.

As to freedom, you are right we do have freedom but Scotland has been denied the freedom to determine the future because of the refusal to hold a referendum. We now have the opportunity to have that freedom and Scots will choose independence or not but the point surely is that we have the choice.

[The Bruce]

The one, There's always one and I guess you're it. Why is it nonsense?

And Weezer, you pick and choose which areas you want to discuss. What about the ones you missed out?

No comments on Patriotism or deciding with your heart and then using your head to make it a reality?

You say we have freedom, but what about our lack of freedom when it came to Scotlands Assets beiong sold off or the poll tax being imposed on us?

No comment on being positive about the EU UN and NATO? You accept Scotland can be a part of it and it's a positive thing?

No comment on some kids choosing to stay in Scotlnad and not being out to earn as much as they can for themselves? I think this is fundamental to Scotlands future and more of our kids will stay here rather than work abroad if we have our own destiney in our own hands.

And as much as the parliament building cost it probably could have been saltir shaped and made of gold. I'm not sure what your point is there other than to try to make me look silly. That's the kind of negative smear campaigning you get from the Torries and Labour in England.

And the RBS might have been a problem for Scotland. Good thing it's in the past and we can all learn from those mistakes and ensure it never happens again eh?

[weezer 316]

We argue that RBS bailout and oil revenue either support or undermine the argument for independence but surely the is an equal argument that says RBS may very well Not have got in the situation where it needed to be bailed out if Scotland was independent of the UK because the laws and the practices might very well have been different.

To make a decision about independence we need to look ahead and ensure that systems and regulations exist that make the banking crisis unlikely to happen
here. People talk about Iceland and Eire but Sweden and Norway and other small countries managed to avoid the worst of the problems. Scotland would need to be sure to address these issues.

As to freedom, you are right we do have freedom but Scotland has been denied the freedom to determine the future because of the refusal to hold a referendum. We now have the opportunity to have that freedom and Scots will choose independence or not but the point surely is that we have the choice.

Mate you cannot base an argument for anything, let alone something as serious as independence, on what might have been different.

Sweden and Norway, you might as well chuck tajikistan in too because none of them have banking sectors as big as ours or even close. Scotlands finance sector dwarfs Iceland and Ireland and they have sizable sectors in thier own right. Hence the reason a comparison is drawn. We would have had to go cap in hand to England/EU and the case for "independence" would have looked even shallower than it currently does.

As for denial of right, please. Up until now a clear majority have voted for parties clearly opposed to independence, so the choice had been made by default. However now that a party which wishes to be independent has won a majority of votes, they guidelines for a referendum must be laid bare. We cannot end up in a situation where 25% of the populace votes yes and it leads to independence.

[theone]

To make a decision about independence we need to look ahead and ensure that systems and regulations exist that make the banking crisis unlikely to happen
here. People talk about Iceland and Eire but Sweden and Norway and other small countries managed to avoid the worst of the problems. Scotland would need to be sure to address these issues.

That's a fair point, but we don't have a crystal ball and can't tell what the future can bring. Sweden might have done ok during the credit crunch, but what about the next unforseen event? Ireland/Iceland et al have been cited as "models" for Scotland for years by the nationalists. That's all changed because of the credit crunch.

As to freedom, you are right we do have freedom but Scotland has been denied the freedom to determine the future because of the refusal to hold a referendum. We now have the opportunity to have that freedom and Scots will choose independence or not but the point surely is that we have the choice.

The "refusal" to hold a referendum was a decision taken by those who we elected. That's democracy. Those who we voted into power making decisions on our behalf. "Freedom" was never withheld.

[weezer 316]

The one, There's always one and I guess you're it. Why is it nonsense?

And Weezer, you pick and choose which areas you want to discuss. What about the ones you missed out?

No comments on Patriotism or deciding with your heart and then using your head to make it a reality?

You say we have freedom, but what about our lack of freedom when it came to Scotlands Assets beiong sold off or the poll tax being imposed on us?

No comment on being positive about the EU UN and NATO? You accept Scotland can be a part of it and it's a positive thing?

No comment on some kids choosing to stay in Scotlnad and not being out to earn as much as they can for themselves? I think this is fundamental to Scotlands future and more of our kids will stay here rather than work abroad if we have our own destiney in our own hands.

And as much as the parliament building cost it probably could have been saltir shaped and made of gold. I'm not sure what your point is there other than to try to make me look silly. That's the kind of negative smear campaigning you get from the Torries and Labour in England.

And the RBS might have been a problem for Scotland. Good thing it's in the past and we can all learn from those mistakes and ensure it never happens again eh?

As opposed to just avoiding the questions totally?

1: Scotland has the highest earnings outside of London. So your poor argument certainly doesnt stack up. Ever tried to buy a house in Aberdeen?

2: Negative smear from england? You mean like accusing them of theft of oil money? Very honorable stuff indeed, very "scottish"

3: Scotlands assets? I assume you mean oil....or something else?

4: We are positive, very very positive already in these bodies. Its your view of the world thats negative, viewed with a "its the english" set of glasses.

5: keeping people here is clearly vital. I dont think I had to really say it. Perhaps you could elbaorate on how independence will help achieve this? At least if we are part of the UK and they move to england we still receive from their taxes.

6: IM patriotic mate. I want whats best for my country. You it appears dont hence the reason you want independence

[theone]

[QUOTE=The Bruce;848122]The one, There's always one and I guess you're it. Why is it nonsense?

[QUOTE]

In any split, the assets a debts are divided up. We'll share the debt.

To suggest we can claim back 40 years of oil revenue is akin to a husband demanding 40 years of housekeeping money back from a wife he is divorcing. Nonsense.

[golach]

Sorry The Bruce, I think you should come out of your re-enactment role and come into the 21st century, Scotland is in the real world now. A Salmond is neither Robert the Bruce nor William Wallace, (more like Mel Gibson), he is not going come galloping down the Great Glen on a white horse to save us from David Dastardly Cameron. he is a politician, and in my opinion he like the rest are tarred with the same stick, he is out for gain, not ours but his own.
The dragons teeth of nationalism have been sewn, I will be interested in what sprouts up.

[squidge]

Fair point weezer but neither should you make a decision about the future because you are scared of the past repeating itself. The future is exactly that.... It is now in the hands of Scotland's people, whether they are Scottish, English or from Mars; black White or any colour in between and I think that it is a good thing to discuss independence, the pros and cons and to have the freedom to make the choice about the country we live in.

I have not decided for or against but I am glad I will have the opportunity to do so.

[John Little]

Can somebody tell me please - what is wrong with being British? I mean apropos of what The Bruce said;

"Firstly I’d rather be poor and Scottish than, well, poor and British."

Is it not possible to be both?

[Corrie 3]

Can somebody tell me please - what is wrong with being British?

Whoever you vote for you cant get a decent Govt for a start John.... I also personally think that England particularly is going downhill fast in the eyes of the world and I for one dont want to be part of a Country that is going downhill! We have a chance to make it on our own, we must at least have the will and the fight to make it work!!

C3......

[weezer 316]

Whoever you vote for you cant get a decent Govt for a start John.... I also personally think that England particularly is going downhill fast in the eyes of the world and I for one dont want to be part of a Country that is going downhill! We have a chance to make it on our own, we must at least have the will and the fight to make it work!!

C3......

England is going down hill? Really? I would have said in just about every sphere england is an immensely influential country! Its home to arguably the worlds most influential city, both economically and culturally, its home to a football league thats watched the world over, its home of English which is basically pax romana, its culture from its music to its art, and its industry as well as its expertise in things like the Marine and banking industry all make its a hugely influential country, far more than countries of many times the population like Brazil or even India! Yet all some do here is moan about them and how the problems of this country are all Englands fault.

Im sorry but we have far more in common with England than just to be stuck on the same bit of rock. This "we can do better on our own" forget thats we really is great britain, which im sure any forthcoming referendum will show

[Zero]

I want an independand scotland for all the right reasons. its got nothing too do with hating the english or getting over 300 years of being downtrodden and used. Its got to do with the fact we still throw away half of the fish our boats catch, we pay the highest prices for fuels that are on our doorstep, health and saftey. these are all things that are outside a devolved scotlands power, so this is why we need to break free from westminster. If they will not allow us to apply logic then we will need to take controll from the ground up ourselves. There are plenty who dont believe in Scotland, they dont think we got what it takes. ask yourself "what does the union do for us?" look at nations like norway and the swiss! they can do it. why cant we? collective localisim is the way forward.

[Corrie 3]

You use the word influential a lot there weezer, who are you trying to influence? You dont work for the English tourist Board do you? I think you ought to see a bit more of the world before you make such sweeping statements about England and in particular London!
You mention industry, the industry has all but gone now, all the stuff we buy is made in the far east, the Japanese have taken over all our car plants, no steelmaking anymore, no coal mining, hardly any shipbuilding...do you want me to go on?
Murders everyday, knifings, rapes, shootings daily, yes, really influential I would say. How many people are there unemployed, how many on Incapacity benefit, how many children living below the poverty line, how many homeless, how many old folk cant afford to keep warm in the winter? If you are happy to live like this then you vote NO when the time comes.
Scandinavian Countries influence me weezer, I would sooner Scotland were more like those countries rather than our "Mother" country, as I said, its gone downhill and is all but finished as a great nation!

C3.....

[weezer 316]

You use the word influential a lot there weezer, who are you trying to influence? You dont work for the English tourist Board do you? I think you ought to see a bit more of the world before you make such sweeping statements about England and in particular London!
You mention industry, the industry has all but gone now, all the stuff we buy is made in the far east, the Japanese have taken over all our car plants, no steelmaking anymore, no coal mining, hardly any shipbuilding...do you want me to go on?
Murders everyday, knifings, rapes, shootings daily, yes, really influential I would say. How many people are there unemployed, how many on Incapacity benefit, how many children living below the poverty line, how many homeless, how many old folk cant afford to keep warm in the winter? If you are happy to live like this then you vote NO when the time comes.
Scandinavian Countries influence me weezer, I would sooner Scotland were more like those countries rather than our "Mother" country, as I said, its gone downhill and is all but finished as a great nation!

C3.....

Haha! What uttter nonsesne you talk! You know nothing about me, nothing. Whats my name?

You know why our manufacturing went to the far east? Because they could do things cheaper. Good ol you and me would rather pay 5k for a car than 10k for the same car thats made here. Thats why. That has nothing to do with the union or devolution but more market economics. japan hasnt taken our car plants, they built their own! Honda and co are well established and competitive where are most british stuff was losing the battle when it came to competitive prices. Zip to do with the union.

Infact im certain I seen you slag the price of local petrol and accused them of ripping you off on another thread, so it seems HIGHLY unlikely you could care less about locale, be it scotland or caithness, and more about your pocket.

And I wouldnt put such emphasis on the Scandinavian countries. Norway has monumental amounts of oil, more than half of all the oil in the north sea. We simply didnt have anywhere near as much oil. As for sweden and Denmark, they are the heaviest taxed in the world, wiith Denmark no1 of the list. Whilst they have levels of income equality that we can only dream of, I fear people like yourself would moan to the high heavens about the levels of tax you pay, almost like you do about the price of petrol

Im sure you find all the things you mention in every society. Infact i would stick money on the UK being one of the safest countries in the world to live in.

[weezer 316]

I want an independand scotland for all the right reasons. its got nothing too do with hating the english or getting over 300 years of being downtrodden and used. Its got to do with the fact we still throw away half of the fish our boats catch, we pay the highest prices for fuels that are on our doorstep, health and saftey. these are all things that are outside a devolved scotlands power, so this is why we need to break free from westminster. If they will not allow us to apply logic then we will need to take controll from the ground up ourselves. There are plenty who dont believe in Scotland, they dont think we got what it takes. ask yourself "what does the union do for us?" look at nations like norway and the swiss! they can do it. why cant we? collective localisim is the way forward.

Infact here you go: http://forum.caithness.org/showthrea...948#post825948

As for the fish, thats the EU. You are not seriiously suggesting we pull out of that too are you???

And for the fuel, you clearly have no idea how the fuel price is guaged have you? Saudis get fuel for pennies as their govt extracts and refines it. Private companies do ours, and so the cost will always be higher as you are paying for their expertise.

Now as for what the union does for us, hows this:

Helps defend us
Gives us access to a massive internal market
Unites us and minimises the chance of a war between us
Allows us to pool resources and share risk
Allows us to share our common culture and heritage
Allows us to access and tap expertise that a small country may not have access to on its own (Cutting edge medicine springs to mind)
Gives us a FAR larger voice in the world. Could scotland get a motion at the WTO/UN/EU through that would benefit it at the expense of say Sweden? Unliekly. Could the UK? Definetly
Access to one of the worlds economic command centers in London
Access to finance at half the cost it would be for a small nation (Ireland paid double what the UK did in Interest rates on the national market, prob more now)


You my friend are a dinosaur. The world is coming together, not moving apart. You belong to the 20th century

[Tubthumper]

Weezer, your bullet points could be applied equally to Scotland in the EU. And i'm just loving the way people suddenly change tack when independence gets mentioned - "World economic metdown, UK finance systems crippled, austerity ahead, we must all tighten our belts and so on"... then suddenly "You don't know how well off you are, UK PLC is strong and great, you'd be lost without it yada yada..."

Why are you so afraid of change? Why is the hoop of the establishment twitching? Could everything that's been said about Scotland suffering through independece be applied equally to our partners in the unsatisfactory union?