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Thread: Why independence?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leanne View Post
    Have you ever read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand?
    No, sorry Leanne, I have never heard of it! Is it worth a read?

    C3......

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Little View Post
    Now I really am puzzled. From where I sit Scotland is all those anyway. Inventive, innovative, clever, hard working etc etc. You mean more so?

    And that last bit!

    You mean you aren't proud of Scotland?

    I would be.
    I seem to be good at puzzling people John, my apologies!!!!
    Firstly, I love my country and being worldly wise I woudn't live anywhere else, its a brilliant place to live!
    But as you say, it could be better by a long chalk and the list of things that could improve is far too long for on here but some of the things are governed by Parliament. I would like to see us run our own roads, keeping the road taxes in Scotland instead of going into the melting pot in London, our roads need improving. I think we need to bring back manufacturing and start exporting more than we do. Our tourism could be better, our towns need a makeover and updating, our trains and buses should be Nationalised and run by Holyrood. We need to get rid of this poor,fat, unhealthy, idle label that we have. I could go on all day John, as I said, I love Scotland and its people but I hope I will be so proud of our achievements in a few years time, this is our big chance, lets not waste it!!!

    C3......

  3. #43
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    LOL! I agree with every word you say- but I apply it to the UK as a whole. You should see the roads down here - potholes or what! I agree on manufacturing, the buses and trains, tourism, infrastructure etc.

    You don't have to believe in independence to support every single point you make!
    D'oH! My brain hurts...

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corrie 3 View Post
    No, sorry Leanne, I have never heard of it! Is it worth a read?

    C3......
    Epic! It got banned in America on it's release. But then again it is about socialism and the downfall of the US, with a love story running alongside it. It's heavy reading at first but gripping and thought provoking.
    ¡ǝʇǝןdɯoɔ sı ǝɟıן ʎɯ - buızɐɹb sǝsɹoɥ ʎɯ sı ooן ʎɯ ɯoɹɟ ʍǝıʌ ǝɥʇ

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Little View Post
    .

    On another thread Ducati said this;

    I still don't understand why it is even desirable, care to enlighten?"


    I have to say that I share that position. I do not understand.
    I wouldnt go as far to say that nationalism is a naturally occuring feeling inherant in all human life but its not far off it. Anyone who harbours thoughts of an independant Scotland shouldnt have to explain in some profoundly philosophical way why they feel like that. They just do. Its a human thing. There doesnt have to be any sinister undertones to being a nationalist. History has taught us of the dangers of nationalism. There are just as many dangers in extreme Toryism or extreme Labourism so independance by way of national pride is an honourable ambition and shouldnt need to be explained in any other way other than declaring you want to live in an independant free and democratic Scotland.
    If there's an undercurrent of mistrust as to the aims of independance perhaps John and Ducati will lay their worries on the table now or forever shut up about why and offer an opinion about why not.

  6. #46
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    I have no worries about it.
    I have implied no sinister undertones.
    I have no mistrust of the aims of independence. (I don't actually know what they are)

    I observe that we are in a particular state and ask why you wish to change it.

    That is all.
    Last edited by John Little; 08-May-11 at 21:46.
    D'oH! My brain hurts...

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Little View Post
    I have no worries about it.
    I have implied no sinister undertones.
    I have no mistrust of the aims of independence.

    I observe that we are in a particular state and ask why you wish to change it.

    That is all.
    Because that's what nationalism implies. You cant have independance without changing things. Unless you want a deep and profound discussion about the roots of nationalism, which I suspect would end up back where I mentioned in my first post, isnt it enough to accept that some people desire change and you have to decide whether to support it or challenge it?

  8. #48
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    If I want change then I usually have reasons.

    If people desire change then they should have it.

    But I personally would rather understand with reasons I can apply a rationale to. Hence this thread.

    If you are telling me that you want to break the union because you want to break the union then I will remain utterly bewildered but would not wish to stop it if that's what you want.
    D'oH! My brain hurts...

  9. #49
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    BTW. I dont want to change it but I understand those who do. I dont understand what yourself and ducati dont understand. perhaps you can help me by offering some questions other that why.

  10. #50
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    From where Im sitting it's not about breaking the union. Its about a nation seeking Independance.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by gleeber View Post
    BTW. I dont want to change it but I understand those who do. I dont understand what yourself and ducati dont understand. perhaps you can help me by offering some questions other that why.
    I don't know how to say it better.

    I do not understand why a substantial number of Scots wish to break up the United Kingdom. I just want someone to give me some reasons I can understand.

    It is not essential that anyone do so and it should not stand in the way of vox populi.

    I just want to know.
    D'oH! My brain hurts...

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Little View Post
    I don't know how to say it better.

    I do not understand why a substantial number of Scots wish to break up the United Kingdom. I just want someone to give me some reasons I can understand.

    It is not essential that anyone do so and it should not stand in the way of vox populi.

    I just want to know.
    I offered my first post in response to your question why. Did I waste my time?

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by gleeber View Post
    I offered my first post in response to your question why. Did I waste my time?
    Probably. I don't get nationalism and certainly would not get nationalistic about England or go waving flags. I do not understand that in any way at all.

    The dodgy act of union was brought about by a government acting for a member of a Scottish royal house who wished a more direct control over her dominions.

    Since then the combination has built the largest empire the world has ever seen, sparked the Industrialisation of the entire world, given rise to achievements in Science, Medicine, civilisation and letters, fought two world wars and been a power which punches well above its weight on the world stage.

    You tell me that the reason for breaking all that history up is national pride and I will look at you in utter incomprehension and leave you to it.

    If that's the reason then so be it and good luck to youse all.
    D'oH! My brain hurts...

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Little View Post
    You tell me that the reason for breaking all that history up is national pride and I will look at you in utter incomprehension and leave you to it.

    If that's the reason then so be it and good luck to youse all.
    I offered my opinion and I think its an honourable position for anyone to embrace. That you dont understand why others shouldnt embrace the union for the romantic memories you percieve of it is purely personal and of little consequence.

  15. #55
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    Having said all that I do think there may be people who use nationalism to fulfill a deeper and darker need. They usually stand out though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gleeber View Post
    I offered my opinion and I think its an honourable position for anyone to embrace. That you dont understand why others shouldnt embrace the union for the romantic memories you percieve of it is purely personal and of little consequence.
    I did not say that your position was dishonourable, just that I do not understand it.

    As to romantic, I do not think I have been - all the things I have said were done under the Union.
    D'oH! My brain hurts...

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by gleeber View Post
    Having said all that I do think there may be people who use nationalism to fulfill a deeper and darker need. They usually stand out though.
    I think I do understand that bit - we have them here too but I would not vote for them.

    The big advantage of the SNP to me, and why I would vote for them if I lived in Scotland is that they are not peddling a version of neo-Conservatism - which all the others are doing. Unless Labour goes back to centre left policies they will not recover.

    But if I voted for them it would not be for independence but their other policies. They put the welfare of the people first. They are not driven by the idea that a healthy economy and business must be bought at the cost of unemployment and misery.
    D'oH! My brain hurts...

  18. #58
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    Interesting: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...ncial-autonomy though it could split any potential vote.

  19. #59
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    For what it's worth:
    Absolutely Not. Keep the Union. 22 55.00%
    Full independence from UK & EU. 13 32.50%
    It's Brussel's we need to worry about, not Westminster. 3 7.50%
    Where's my cheque for my share of the oil billions? 2 5.00%


    40 votes so a 2% turnout of active orgers


  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by RecQuery View Post
    Interesting: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...ncial-autonomy though it could split any potential vote.
    Good and thoughtful link that. It minds me of the form of Federalism in place in the early days of the United States where any powers not specifically devolved to a Federal parliament went by default to the states.

    That could work and could be attractive. There would have to be some form of mechanism to give powers to a central government in time of crisis eg war. And I do not think that a Federal government could be in London.

    England would need its own parliament.


    I know what it is about the world 'independence' that makes me uneasy. It implies that Scotland is a colony and you ain't. Never were. You would be no more 'independent' than England. Self determination and autonomy is what this is about. A mature, equal and federal solution.

    That I get.
    D'oH! My brain hurts...

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