Why independence?

[John Little]

I tried asking this before but got trolled by someone asking which way I voted then trying to talk about Dounreay for some reason. So I figured that if I started it as a thread then I might get a sensible answer.

On another thread Ducati said this;

I still don't understand why it is even desirable, care to enlighten?"


I have to say that I share that position. I do not understand.

When I asked it before my own personal troll replied 'self-respect' but I made the mistake of replying that this implies an absence of self respect and implies inferiority.
But that I, as a unionist (small u) have never regarded Scotland or Scots as inferior; I am part Scots myself. That I have always seen the union as a mutually beneficial partnership of equals. To my troll that seemed to imply that I was a Tory so he asked the very personal question of which way I vote.

Now my own position on independence is quite clear - that if the people of Scotland want it then of course they should have it.

And I know full well that Scotland is quite capable of running her own economy and with a GDP of £137 bn would be perfectly viable as an independent nation state.

But I do not understand why.

To me it's a bit like having a divorce because you are bored.

Which seems perverse in such a glitteringly successful marriage; England and Scotland have done things together that neither could have done alone.


So I would like some grounded, rational and sensible Scottish nationalist to explain to me why independence is a desirable thing.

Not as a loaded question full of pre valued angst because this is not a challenge. I really wish to understand for my own education.

And if the marriage has gone wrong does it mean permanent separation, or would some marriage guidance which led to an updated form of marriage (full federalism) suffice?

[Tubthumper]

We Scots have been brought up on stories about how great we were (the enlightenment, our education systems, our soldiers and so on) but are daily told we're a joke (poorly housed, fat, alcoholic, dense underachieving spongers and so on). The change obviously came about since our marriage.

'We' have been put in our current situation by the current arrangement; Despite our contribution to the running of the Union, and all that has come to us from it, it is not satisfactory and is getting steadily worse.

We'd like superb facilities, sports teams that win things, a positive outlook, better health, longer life and a place at the main table of world events. The world is changing, old relationships are becoming irrelevant, we have so much to contribute. So we're going to discuss how we'd like to go forward. If our current partner England doesn't like us fat spongers, why are they so scared of losing us?

Agreed, a Federated arrangement might be grand. European preferably.

[sids]

We Scots have been brought up on stories about how great we were (the enlightenment, our education systems, our soldiers and so on)

You want independence because of glorious stories.

but are daily told we're a joke (poorly housed, fat, alcoholic, dense underachieving spongers and so on).

You want independence because someone said cheeky things about Scotland.

The change obviously came about as a result of our marriage to England,

The change from what?

who by the way are always moaning about us not being good enough.

Really- all of them? Or just those whom you rant at about your nationalist "grievances?"

And by the way, our current state obviously includes all those who have settled here, wherever they've come from.

Well I suppose so, but is that for or against independence?

We'd like superb facilities, sports teams that win things, a positive outlook, better health, longer life and a place at the main table of world events. It isn't happening at the moment.

Do you blame English oppression for Wick Academy's away record as well? For Stewart Kennedy letting in five? For over-eating in Scotland?

We'd all like those superb things, but I don't see how independence would bring them to us.

The world is changing, old relationships are becoming irrelevant, we have so much to contribute. So we're going to discuss how we'd like to go forward.

Don't know what any of those points mean, but enjoy yourself.

And if England doesn't like us fat spongers, why are they so scared of losing us?

Is that what they call tub thumping rhetoric? Once again, the English people you have managed to annoy with spurious tales of English oppression may say they don't like you.

[Tubthumper]

Good post Sids; well structured, points clearly made. Kind of missed all my points though didn't you?

(And apologies, I was editing my post while Sids responded - some of the quotes were from an earlier version)

[Tubthumper]

Actually Sids response pretty much sums up Scotland's present schizophrenic personality.

• Pro Scotland/ anti-independence, pro freedom of expression/ anti-expression of dissatisfaction.
• Ready to jump on anyone who dares criticise Scotland/ ready to criticise anyone who dares to suggest we could do better.
• Prepared to defend the Union as all we've got/ unwilling to acknowledge its manifest failures.
• Proud of our woeful sporting history but unwilling to admit that winning something would be better than always getting humped.
• Able to conveniently forget that 'Scotland' is the current sum of all who live here (including the English, Poles, Italians etc)
• Despite a world-class education, remaining conveniently unaware that our Union has been governed (and our present state formed) by a significant number of Scots
• Hung up on our poor standing in the world, yet unable to admit that we drink badly and each too much pies

I think we're bright, friendly, outgoing and modern. If we could only stop being grumpy, ugly, downcast and rooted to the past we'd get on fine.

"Modern, friendly nation, GSOH, smokes and drinks a bit, slightly overweight, some baggage, WLTM modern world for steady upward-looking long-term relationship".

[sids]

Actually Sids response pretty much sums up Scotland's present schizophrenic personality.

• Pro Scotland/ anti-independence, pro freedom of expression/ anti-expression of dissatisfaction.
• Ready to jump on anyone who dares criticise Scotland/ ready to criticise anyone who dares to suggest we could do better.
• Prepared to defend the Union as all we've got/ unwilling to acknowledge its manifest failures.
• Proud of our woeful sporting history but unwilling to admit that winning something would be better than always getting humped.
• Able to conveniently forget that 'Scotland' is the current sum of all who live here (including the English, Poles, Italians etc)
• Despite a world-class education, remaining conveniently unaware that our Union has been governed (and our present state formed) by a significant number of Scots
• Hung up on our poor standing in the world, yet unable to admit that we drink badly and each too much pies

I think we're bright, friendly, outgoing and modern. If we could only stop being grumpy, ugly, downcast and rooted to the past we'd get on fine.

"Modern, friendly nation, GSOH, smokes and drinks a bit, slightly overweight, some baggage, WLTM modern world for steady upward-looking long-term relationship".

Thanks- I'll try to stop being ugly. I don't think the other bullet points are much more than soundbites.

[Tubthumper]

Thanks- I'll try to stop being ugly.

Me too. I feel ugly sometimes without actually being all that bad-looking by the way...

I don't think the other bullet points are much more than soundbites.

Fair enough, but don't you think there might be a hint of truth in there?

[sids]

Fair enough, but don't you think there might be a hint of truth in there?

There always is, but I think something similar could be constructed to support almost any point of view.

[pmcd]

"O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!
It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion"

Your man, and Tubthumper, got it right. By the way - not soundbites, but perceptions.

Unless and until those perceptions, positive and negative, are addressed and, where necessary, overhauled, Scotland will remain muttering darkly on the touchline.

Alex Salmond's emphatic victory has opened a huge door of confidence. We can now all look forward to the referendum, which will rightly be used as a bargaining counter with Whitehall. When the day comes, the Scottish people will have enough self-confidence to continue as a senior (and equal) partner in the Union, for the greater good of all.

[NickInTheNorth]

An interesting question John, and a difficult one to answer.

I guess there are 2 parts to adesire for independence.

The first part I guess is the one which initially drives the wish for independence. The heart!

Which is why it is very hard to answer the question posited by Ducati :

I still don't understand why it is even desirable, care to enlighten?"

That is a bit like seeing your best pal totally infatuated with someone that you consider to be ugly, irritating, and just totally "unfanciable". Nothing the pal says will ever make you see what they see.

I think that is the first part of the reason for people wanting independence. And no amount of explanation is going to make it look attractive to anyone that doesn't see it straight away.

The second part of course is what goes on in the head. The examination of the logical reasons why independence is or is not a good idea. The economcs of the deal, the politics, the practicalities. But even then somewhere deep down there also must be the feeling for it.

As someone who was born in England, and who lived there until the age of 39 I could never at that stage understand why anyone in Scotland wanted independendence. After all it was only a northern extension of England, with lots of hills and lochs, and guys wearing skirts, oh and a wee bit of a tourist industry, and they made whisky.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the country from the first time I set foot in it as a teenager, and have wanted to live here since I was 17, but he word picture painted above is pretty much what the English media distribute.

After I finally managed to move here in 2001 I found that in fact Scotland really is a foreign country, in the same way that France, or Eire is.

OK we have a common lanuage, but use and speak it very differently. The core traits at the heart of the 2 societies are very different when you become immersed in them.

Scotland really does still have a stong community spirit, in England as so famously pointed out by Margaret Thatcher, there is no such thing as society.

I never felt entirely at home in England, but have always felt at home in Scotland, I couldn't say why, it is just the way it feels to me.

Do I want independence - the truth is I don't know. My heart likes the idea, my head questions if there is any real benefit. Economically I have no doubt that Scotland could make a go of it, politically there is already a healthy chunk of independence. We have a seperate legal system which works well, our education system, in my opinion is light years ahead of the English one, we could certainly be a member of the EU in our own right (and no, there is no way we could survive outwith the EU, any more than could the UK as a whole). If we were members of the EU in our own right just maybe we could get along with the rest of Europe a bit better,rather than the current semi-detached way that the UK works, all the time trying to be the 51st state.

I don't know if that provides and help or incite into anything, but it's certainly started me inking about which way I may vote if ever asked.

[sids]

When the day comes, the Scottish people will have enough self-confidence to continue as a senior (and equal) partner in the Union, for the greater good of all.

It's news to me that the referendum will be about a senior and equal partnership in the Union. Aren't they talking about an independence referendum?

[pmcd]

The referendum will ask whether or not the voters want Independence. The indicators are that they won't, once they've seen the costs, and what they might lose....I was assuming that common sense would rule the vote, as it has done in all polls so far.

[Corrie 3]

I think everyone will want to see the facts and figures before voting for freedom from England. If it can be proven that we can survive financially on our own I think people will vote Yes!!!!
I will not vote Yes until I am totally convinced that we will be better off.
C3.....

[Leanne]

Has anyone considered why so many English has move to Scotland - from my perspective it is because the way of life is better. Traditional values are still in society and on the whole there is less crime and it feels a safer place to live. While I am all for Scottish independence to allow the country to continue to be as great as it is - it needs to be done under financial stability.

[NickInTheNorth]

But is "better off" strictly an economic judgement?

[Leanne]

But is "better off" strictly an economic judgement?

No but financial stability increases all the rest exponentially. It would be wrong to gain independence for an ideal (as right as I feel it is) when it cannot be maintained long term.

[bekisman]

Has anyone considered why so many English has move to Scotland - from my perspective it is because the way of life is better. Traditional values are still in society and on the whole there is less crime and it feels a safer place to live. While I am all for Scottish independence to allow the country to continue to be as great as it is - it needs to be done under financial stability.

Has anyone considered why so many Scots move to England?

People born in England but living in Scotland 408,948

People born in Scotland but living in England 794,577

Table 9A (Scotland's Census 2001 - Statistics on Migration, by Alan D Fleming)
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files1/stats/op11-tab9a.pdf

[golach]

Has anyone considered why so many Scots move to England?

People born in England but living in Scotland 408,948

People born in Scotland but living in England 794,577

Table 9A (Scotland's Census 2001 - Statistics on Migration, by Alan D Fleming)
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files1/stats/op11-tab9a.pdf

Scotland's best export has always been its people, maybe now it will start all over again, when Eck hands are on the wheel of government. Ireland is exporting more of its younger generation at the moment because of its economic meltdown, I think Scotland will head in the same way as Ireland and Iceland and if we go fully independent we will not have the EU and Westminster to bail us out.

[Leanne]

Has anyone considered why so many Scots move to England?

People born in England but living in Scotland 408,948

People born in Scotland but living in England 794,577

Table 9A (Scotland's Census 2001 - Statistics on Migration, by Alan D Fleming)
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files1/stats/op11-tab9a.pdf

Maybe a percieved view of a better life - how many come back? Quite a lot in my experience... The same happens in England - kids go off travelling, in search of a better life, and find that the grass isn't always greener on the other side.

[theone]

But is "better off" strictly an economic judgement?

The economic factor, in my opinion, is the big one.

But there's so many others.

Our political significance in the world. Whereas the UK is still a fairly big player, Scotland would have the political weight of Belgium.

Our powers of veto in the EU/UN/NATO.

Our defence capabilities, not to mention the loss of income from the UK armed forces in Scotland.

Our ability to withstand economic changes, like the credit crunch. RBS has survives because the UK could prop it up. In an independent Scotland, we could not. One of the nations biggest companies would be lost, and tens of thousands of jobs along with it. We'd be on a level with Iceland, Ireland, Greece and Portugal.

For me the negatives vastly outweigh the positives.