who is god

[John Little]

Seems I have been 'dismissed' by you, But....It was from the Old Testament. Seems that Geo confirms that. Genesis to be exact!

Assumptions again.

Actually I was babysitting.

Jesus did not live in Old Testament Times. Something that is written perhaps hundreds of years before his lifetime cannot tell us what a man believed during his own lifetime.

This is called anachronism.

[The Music Monster]

What say you on Stephen Hawking changing his mind? And we had another well know person in North America Sir John Templeton, who in latter years stated that if Genesis was to be taken literally & histroically, the elolution of millions of years cannot be true...........

I would say that these two people are individuals and as such are entitled to their own point of view... If you follow a religion created by these people you may chose to change your belief to match their new one, but as most of the Christians on the planet do not follow Stephen Hawking as a religious leader or even know who Sir John Templeton was, this is not a valid argument to dismiss the narrative of creation writings.

On a lighter note, RunRig wrote a fantastic song about Stephen Hawking's disbelief in God - before he converted and converted again! - it's a pretty good song and well worth a listen if you haven't heard it already. It's called The Apple Came Down.

[Greenland]

I'm not a Christian or buddist and I haven't studied science or theology but I believe that God is a divine energy of universal love and God exists in my experience if you want to open up your heart and your mind. Why are people arguing and trying to prove theories or picking holes in others faith? If you do want to find out who is God then try and have some faith that you may not know everything and see what happens. Godand angels exist within an energy of love and will be found there. Losing someone we love and seeing horrible things happen is awful but loss is part of our life and acceptance of that suffering does help in my experience. Buddism is a very interesting philosophy and teaches alot about suffering. I don't know any more than anyone else but I have experienced Gods love and do so each day.

[sandyr1]

Very nice!

[sandyr1]

I would say that these two people are individuals and as such are entitled to their own point of view... If you follow a religion created by these people you may chose to change your belief to match their new one, but as most of the Christians on the planet do not follow Stephen Hawking as a religious leader or even know who Sir John Templeton was, this is not a valid argument to dismiss the narrative of creation writings.

On a lighter note, RunRig wrote a fantastic song about Stephen Hawking's disbelief in God - before he converted and converted again! - it's a pretty good song and well worth a listen if you haven't heard it already. It's called The Apple Came Down.

Gosh I thought people knew of Hawking and Templeton aka The Smart and the Rich!
Neither are Religious Leaders but perhaps Visionary could be their 'handle'!
A strange thread!

[sandyr1]

Assumptions again.

Actually I was babysitting.

Jesus did not live in Old Testament Times. Something that is written perhaps hundreds of years before his lifetime cannot tell us what a man believed during his own lifetime.

This is called anachronism.

Yes, I doth know about 'an error in time'...........
But be advised that perhaps the statement was not from the New Testament but the olde. I am not an academic but have some little knowledge. Tks for reply.

[John Little]

Yes, I doth know about 'an error in time'...........
But be advised that perhaps the statement was not from the New Testament but the olde. I am not an academic but have some little knowledge. Tks for reply.

I am aware of where the statement came from. Jesus is not in the Old Testament. There is also nothing in the New Testament that proves he believed literally in the story of Adam and Eve.

You cannot use the Old Testament to prove what someone believed in the time of the New Testament because the Old predates the New.

That is my point.

Much of what people who call themselves Christians say is inference which suits their own interpretation.

But in the words of Maimonides you either believe in God or you do not.

The rest is commentary.

[sandyr1]

But couldn't Jesus have been taking about the past, which had passed?
Of course we all believe differently and interpretation is so personal.......
I have reservations about believing or not believing...is there a middle line....like.. There is something there, but I don't know what it is...
That's a little like George W Bush saying, you are either with us or against us.

I see he was around in the 12th century...Interesting reading is Ken Follett's Pillars of the Earth etc!

[John Little]

"But couldn't Jesus have been taking about the past, which had passed?"

Maybe.

And maybe not.

Commentary.

[weezer 316]

I'm not a Christian or buddist and I haven't studied science or theology but I believe that God is a divine energy of universal love and God exists in my experience if you want to open up your heart and your mind. Why are people arguing and trying to prove theories or picking holes in others faith? If you do want to find out who is God then try and have some faith that you may not know everything and see what happens. Godand angels exist within an energy of love and will be found there. Losing someone we love and seeing horrible things happen is awful but loss is part of our life and acceptance of that suffering does help in my experience. Buddism is a very interesting philosophy and teaches alot about suffering. I don't know any more than anyone else but I have experienced Gods love and do so each day.

God has nothing to do with love! Belief in god and adherence to the god of the Abramhic religions means you will be sexist, homophobic, willing to kill adherants of other religions and most of all willing to believe, blindly, that the stories laid down in their respective scriptures are fact, without a single jot of evidence. You wouldn't blindly accept anything else without evidence so why religion?

[weezer 316]

The answer to your first question is quite simple... The Hebrew Bible is built up of different types of literature. You have the histories such as Kings and Chronicles, the Prophets such as Isaiah and Micah, Narratives such as Genesis, Law such as Numbers and Deuteronomy and poetry such as the Song of Solomon and of course the Psalms. There is an additional style called Wisdom Writing that overlaps with much of the others that first foremost addresses the moral code given by God. Narratives are just that, a story that runs alongside an account. Here you have an account of creation and a story to put it into the understandable terms of humans. When Genesis was written there were fewer understandings about what had come before mankind and so a story was created to run alongside the act of creation. I don't think that Deuteronomy is symbolic at all. I agree with you that it is a representation of a culture at the time of writing, and there will always, sadly, be laws both religious and secular that people will adapt to their own means. I think I have just about answered your first question, but if you still think the holes are bounding feel free to fire more questions.

The meaning of the word Gospel is Good News, and to my knowledge it has never academically in the field of theology been questioned as having a definition otherwise.

I am a little befuddled by your second question... You see, all the churches I have ever attended, which has been a fair number over the years, have never tried to teach that the world is only 200,000 years old but then again I think they assumed that people would appreciate that no one really knows how old the world is, nor how much longer it will last. I am also confused where you found this number in Biblical texts, and would readily look at such an argument if it is indeed valid. I haven't read the whole Bible but the bits I've read have never led me to believe Christians and Jews think the world is 200,000 years old.

In answer to your third point, I think you should go back and read more carefully what I put. There are elements of truth in all religions, and as I said earlier on this board it is not polytheistic to use the Hindu belief of avatars for God, it is human nature to put labels on God and so God will have different faces in much the same way as people have different fronts for different people/jobs. How can I tell you how the world was created - I wasn't their to see it, but since you seem determined for my personal belief then you can have it... I believe in the Big Bang theory, I believe that the world was created by the the reaction of particles and chemicals and that the world evolved from there, but yes I do believe in a God that set this in motion, and I do believe that the account in Genesis is an exact order of creation but that instead of days between events, millennia passed by. I don't claim to be an expert on the beliefs of Aboriginals, but aren't they still waiting for reality which they believe comes when they die and that raises the question of an afterlife which is a whole different kettle of fish?

My comment that questioned the value of regarding the existence of things outside our knowledge was in answer to your request:
And dont even think about playing the god has made stuff that is beyond us card.

Still holey? Write back... As I'm sure I said before: there is nothing I love more than a theological debate.

Reply I shall....

Firstly, I said modern humans appeared 200 000 years ago, not the earth. Some churches have said the earth is 10 000 years old (young earth creationists) whilst the the vatican doesnt have an official position on it. Not surprising, seeing as religion can bring nothing to either cosmology or geology. However, the point is that the church, depite overwhelming evidence of the age of the earth being 4.5 billion years old, have never endorsed it. Ill give you a guess why before I state why.

Secondly, ill state again, there is nothing to say that a passage should be seen as symbolic within the bible. It is written almost entirely as a matter of fact. Poeple who back the bible say this and that was symbolic, when really it was treated as fact until recently (genesis for one). You yourself say there was millenia between the events in geneses, which totally contradicts the day by day narritive! And why do you believe there was millenia between the events? You cant just say that with no evidence to back it up.

I say, in summary, god is a lazy answer and is a shrug of the shoulders, a "I dont know" and relies on ignorance to spread. Didnt St Augustine actually say that curiosity was dangerous? very dangerous for religion indeed.

[weezer 316]

This is a very long thread. Ill summarise my questions and ask for an answer:

1: Why would you believe something without evidence, when you would not in day to day life? You would accept you car that you recently paid 10k for was worth £100 today juts because a autotrader said so. Why do you accept the bible/koran/a.n other text as fact.

2: What is the fate of un-evangelized? What of the people who lived before jesus christ/mohammed? Are the condemned to Hell? If so, why?

3: How is a scripture decided to be either literal or symbolic? Clearly written as literal accounts. with no indicator of whether they are symbolic of not. I say they are called as such to suit the zeitgeist of the time and will continue to do so. if thats the case, then clearly they the religious adherants are undermining their own book.

4: Why do religious people believe morals come form biblical texts? God would appear to have contradicted himself by allowing homosexiality in wild life (silver back gorrilas being a good example, bonobo's another) How is this explained by the religious minded?

5: How, without knowledge of all other religions, can you "believe" your one to be right? Almost all religions call themsleves the one true faith. They clearly cannot all be right.

6: How do you account for the obvious problems of where the bible has been shown to be totally inaccurate by science? For example, gallileo being tried for heresy for proving heliocentrism?

[ducati]

Whilst I'm quite enjoying this thread, it isn't achieving anything. weezer, are you expecting the true believers to say; "Oh well, it is a fair cop, it was nice while it lasted"?

[weezer 316]

Not really expecting anything to be honest. Maybe a devout christain to look at the bible objectively would be a brucey bonus.

[Saveman]

I'll attempt to give you some answers

This is a very long thread. Ill summarise my questions and ask for an answer:

1: Why would you believe something without evidence, when you would not in day to day life? You would accept you car that you recently paid 10k for was worth £100 today juts because a autotrader said so. Why do you accept the bible/koran/a.n other text as fact.

A visit to the British Museum was eye opening in it's tangle evidence for the Bible's historical accuracy. Also I've looked at the scientific "evidence" for the origin of life. It requires a LOT of faith to believe it!

2: What is the fate of un-evangelized? What of the people who lived before jesus christ/mohammed? Are the condemned to Hell? If so, why?

The "unrighteous" being condemned to a burning hell is not a Bible teaching. In actual fact the Bible teaches that there is to be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. Acts 24:15

3: How is a scripture decided to be either literal or symbolic? Clearly written as literal accounts. with no indicator of whether they are symbolic of not. I say they are called as such to suit the zeitgeist of the time and will continue to do so. if thats the case, then clearly they the religious adherants are undermining their own book.

The context of the scripture is usually very helpful in this regard. Have you got a specific scripture in mind that you're not sure about?

4: Why do religious people believe morals come form biblical texts? God would appear to have contradicted himself by allowing homosexiality in wild life (silver back gorrilas being a good example, bonobo's another) How is this explained by the religious minded?

Gen 1:25,26 Man was created very differently from animals. Even humans expect different standards of behaviour from humans than from animals, so why not the Creator?

5: How, without knowledge of all other religions, can you "believe" your one to be right? Almost all religions call themsleves the one true faith. They clearly cannot all be right.

No they cannot all be right. Genuine heartfelt prayer and a diligent search for truth and God will make sure that you find the true religion. John 6:44

6: How do you account for the obvious problems of where the bible has been shown to be totally inaccurate by science? For example, gallileo being tried for heresy for proving heliocentrism?

Not sure how this example relates to any particular scripture?
Perhaps you can provide specific scriptures that are contradicted by science?

[secrets in symmetry]

Let's get back to the original question asked.

I want to create my own Universe. I don't want to be theone, I want to be theone after that. There seem to be a lot of experts in this thread, surely some of you can tell me how I can do it.

[bekisman]

Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm? September 11th changed all that.

[weezer 316]

Saveman,

Selective reading, and not alot of evidence.

1: Fossilisation records, covering millions of species, dated over the last 3 billion year via methods such as carbon dating. This, in line with the location of finds, such as the earlies humans being found in east africa, are quite clear. Clearly, a humoid species identical to us appeared there 200 000 years ago, and migrated, again backed up with bones found in the ground. Modern genetics then goes to show that everyone outside if Africa is quite closely related. Please explain what about that requires faith?

2: 2 Peter 2:4 and Revelation 19:20 certianly do talk of burning hell for sinners.

3: John 6;44 actually says "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day". I Double checked here (http://www.biblegateway.com) for clairity in case my bible was somehow wrong.

4: God created the earth in genesis. You yourself said you believe in the big bang fine tuned by god, in contradiction to what the bible says. Science has show that the earth formed from a massive swirl of gas and dust that formed our sun and all the other bodies in the solar system, gravity being the force responsible, not god. This would clearly contradict genesis and be based on observation, as opposed to a tale in a book written by someone who, bare in mind, had been exposed to about the same amount of information through their entire lifetime as an 8yo with an internet connection today. Has the bible been revised with this new data?

[theone]

September 11th changed all that.

Yes maybe, but for the wrong reasons.

The religion of the terrorists should have been irrelevant.

Their crime was terrorism, not being Muslim. I often wonder how much their religion actually had influence on them.

The Arabic and Eastern countries have had gripes with the West for years. There's many reasons, religion isn't a big one.

I don't think their was nearly as much anti-Catholic sentiment in the country when the IRA were having their bombing campaigns as there is anti-Mslim feeling now.

[secrets in symmetry]

4: God created the earth in genesis. You yourself said you believe in the big bang fine tuned by god, in contradiction to what the bible says. Science has show that the earth formed from a massive swirl of gas and dust that formed our sun and all the other bodies in the solar system, gravity being the force responsible, not god. This would clearly contradict genesis and be based on observation, as opposed to a tale in a book written by someone who, bare in mind, had been exposed to about the same amount of information through their entire lifetime as an 8yo with an internet connection today. Has the bible been revised with this new data?

If you know how God created the Earth, can you tell me how I can create my own Universe? I have a false vacuum in the cupboard under the stairs, but do I need my own inflaton, and, if so, do you know where I can get one? Do Tesco sell them?