Enola Gay

[celtic 302]

is dropping a nuc on someone who tortured someone not a bit OTT?

ps, who are the dynamic duo?

[sjwahwah]

there's my minnow!

[Nello]

[quote=celtic 302]is dropping a nuc on someone who tortured someone not a bit OTT?

Well as I said the Japanese attacked America and basically brought things on themselves and I put forward the point about the japanese cultural view of Surrender as the ultimate shame so it was always going to take extreme measures to force their surrender especially when the only other option was the invasion of the japanese mainland, that would have cost who knows how many untold Allied lives. To that end it was justified, this was war and it is a nasty buisness.

I dont understand all the emotional wrangling about this as it was a war for our way of life and our freedom, I dont see anyone going to Germany or Japan and complaining about the bombing of London or the treatment or our POW's but will complain about the manner in which our freedom was guarenteed.

Just one comment on the torture aspect, I served and served in conflict and saw first hand the effects of torture on aircrew in the Gulf in 91, I would happily have taken those apart with my bare hands. I also spent time with World War II veterans, including those who fought the japanese and one brave gentleman who spent time as a POW under them. He said the dropping of the bombs saved him. He was barely alive when liberated.

We fought World War II for our freedom and way of life, anything that gaurenteed that while saving Allied lives was justified in my opnion.

[Nello]

there's my minnow!

Your highly intelligent comment is noted sjwahwah, you truly are an expert.

[sjwahwah]

nope not an expert.. nor a bigot. (see thread United 93)

nello.. if you have anything else to say.. quit sending pm's.. say it where everyone else can have the pleasure of hearing your luvely comments!

[celtic 302]

the droppings off the bombs may have saved thousands of allied soldiers lives, but it killed hundreds of thousands of enemy lives. and saying that you would rather save 10000 allied troops than 100000 enemy troops is quite a sad way of looking at it... also, invading, or using nucs against, japan wasnt the only way off defeating them. if we had defeated Germany, which at the point, germany was already getting weaker, and close to defeat, japan wouldnt have lasted long. and to contradict myelf, we could just have used ordinary bombs rather than nucs. my problem with nucs in the main, is the way people die. some suffering for many years. also, i think the USA used nucs to justify the millions of dollars spent on the development of them...

[Nello]

nope not an expert.. nor a bigot. (see thread United 93)

nello.. if you have anything else to say.. quit sending pm's.. say it where everyone else can have the pleasure of hearing your luvely comments!

I would just like to point that you started referring to me as a Minnow for no apaprent reason and now seem to be a bit put off because I responded to you on the United 93 thread I started. You started insulting me first and for no apparent reason, I think it was because I started the United 93 thread which you hijacked to go on your rant against most things western. And as for you calling me a bigot perhaps I should send you copies of the letters from the 13 year old Iraqi Girl and her 8 year old brother that are sponsored by myself and some ex forces mates. I am sorry if you seem to have a problem with me for whatever reason but please feel free to post the PM I sent you (as you did with the last one) all it contains is a humourous definition of the word expert. I am not going to give you the reaction you seem to want as I dont think you are worth it, no scratch that, I KNOW you arent.

PM's are there to stop the forums getting cluttered, thats the whole point of them.

[Nello]

the droppings off the bombs may have saved thousands of allied soldiers lives, but it killed hundreds of thousands of enemy lives. and saying that you would rather save 10000 allied troops than 100000 enemy troops is quite a sad way of looking at it... also, invading, or using nucs against, japan wasnt the only way off defeating them. if we had defeated Germany, which at the point, germany was already getting weaker, and close to defeat, japan wouldnt have lasted long. and to contradict myelf, we could just have used ordinary bombs rather than nucs. my problem with nucs in the main, is the way people die. some suffering for many years. also, i think the USA used nucs to justify the millions of dollars spent on the development of them...

The whole point of War is to kill the enemy, are you saying that it would be better to not drop the bombs and not invade and just hope that japan will just give up ??, and I hate to burst your bubble but convential weapons kill in a horrific way as well, sometimes worse than nucs, the aftermath of a cluster bomb attack has to be seen to be believed, I saw that in the Gulf. The Japanese have a cultural belief that surrender is the ultimate weakness so they were never just going to give up, I dont deny that an Atomic bomb is not a pleasant way to die but then neither is drowning while trapped in the upturned hull of a battleship, and thats what happened to thousands of sailors at Pearl Harbour, do you think the Japanese give one thought to the sailors there ??

[sjwahwah]

I would just like to point that you started referring to me as a Minnow for no apaprent reason and now seem to be a bit put off because I responded to you on the United 93 thread I started. You started insulting me first and for no apparent reason, I think it was because I started the United 93 thread which you hijacked to go on your rant against most things western. And as for you calling me a bigot perhaps I should send you copies of the letters from the 13 year old Iraqi Girl and her 8 year old brother that are sponsored by myself and some ex forces mates. I am sorry if you seem to have a problem with me for whatever reason but please feel free to post the PM I sent you (as you did with the last one) all it contains is a humourous definition of the word expert. I am not going to give you the reaction you seem to want as I dont think you are worth it, no scratch that, I KNOW you arent.

PM's are there to stop the forums getting cluttered, thats the whole point of them.

or sling abuse in your case.

[Nello]

Well thats easy to say on an open forum isnt it ??, why dont you post the PM like you did last time .. because all it contains is a humourous description of the word expert as you well know.

Why dont you post the PM ??, didnt stop you last time.

So dont insinuate that I have "insulted you" and go all wounded considering you openly called me a bigot on your last post, isnt that "slinging abuse" ??, I will not allow myself to be called that, I am doing something practical to help someone in hardship in the world but pray tell what are you doing ??, apart from offering your opinion on this forum ??. I find it hilarious that you can call me a bigot and then accuse me of slinging abuse.

You are now going on my ignore list, and I wish I had done it earlier.

[Lolabelle]

Ok, I have a question. Did the Japanese or German's have any nuclear weapons at the time of Hiroshima? Please excuse my lack of knowledge in this area. Now if they didn't have nuc weapons, but were building them, do you think that they would NOT have used them.
(No shouting intended, just emphasis)

This comment could have already been made, but I don't have the time to read every post on a 5 billion gazillion page thread, Sorry!
Lola
PS, and don't be nasty about my ignorance and lack of knowledge, I am asking, so as to fill this very obvious void in my life and understanding of all things pertaining to the second world war.

[Dreadnought]

Well as I said the Japanese attacked America and basically brought things on themselves and I put forward the point about the japanese cultural view of Surrender as the ultimate shame so it was always going to take extreme measures to force their surrender especially when the only other option was the invasion of the japanese mainland, that would have cost who knows how many untold Allied lives. To that end it was justified, this was war and it is a nasty buisness.

This is the folly of war, the 'He started it!' argument. By that logic an Iraqi splinter group would be completely justified in setting off a nuke in London/New York/wherever because we attacked them.

If the nukes had been dropped on military targets there would not be so much revulsion for it today. But they weren't dropped on military targets. They were dropped on civilian targets. Not once, but twice. Tell all those children and women who were fried alive, who died slowly of their burns, who were blinded, who suffered cancer for years and then died, who watched their babies die in their arms, that they deserved it because a military installation was destroyed by their navy.

also, invading, or using nucs against, japan wasnt the only way off defeating them. if we had defeated Germany, which at the point, germany was already getting weaker, and close to defeat, japan wouldnt have lasted long.

Just a side point but Germany surrendered on 7th May 1945, the Japanese surrendered on 15th August 1945. Thats why VE Day is before VJ Day.

[fred]

When you said that when one person not supporting Israel doesnt mean britain doesnt support Israel, you are right. But when you said that even when the majority doesnt support Israel it doesnt mean that Britain doesnt support Israel, you are wrong. When the majoriy supports Israel, Britain supports Israel. When the majority doesnt, Britain doesnt. This is because Britain isnt the government, Britain is the publicl!!!

No Britain isn't the public Britain is the state.

The majority of people in Britain were opposed to sending troops to Iraq yet the newspapers still said "Britain sends troops to Iraq". The majority of people in Britain want a ceasefire in Lebanon yet the papers still say "Britain" blocked a UN call for a ceasefire. When the Thatcher government privatised all the state owned industries they took companies which belonged to the state and sold them to the people, if the people and the state were the same they would have been buying thier own property wouldn't they?

You have to understand that the state and the people are two different things and understand it fast because since this government came to power they have passed no less than 15 laws which attack the peoples rights and freedoms and give more power to the state. This country can go to war at any time, not on the say so of the people, not on the say so of our elected representatives in Parliament but on the say so of one man, Tony Blair, that is the law as it stands and you can argue all you want that it was the state which declared war not Britain but Britain will still be at war.

[Dreadnought]

When the Thatcher government privatised all the state owned industries they took companies which belonged to the state and sold them to the people, if the people and the state were the same they would have been buying thier own property wouldn't they?

Yes. That was the main argument against the privatisation of state owned utilities and industries, "Why should I buy what I already own?"

[celtic 302]

No Britain isn't the public Britain is the state.

The majority of people in Britain were opposed to sending troops to Iraq yet the newspapers still said "Britain sends troops to Iraq". The majority of people in Britain want a ceasefire in Lebanon yet the papers still say "Britain" blocked a UN call for a ceasefire. When the Thatcher government privatised all the state owned industries they took companies which belonged to the state and sold them to the people, if the people and the state were the same they would have been buying thier own property wouldn't they?

You have to understand that the state and the people are two different things and understand it fast because since this government came to power they have passed no less than 15 laws which attack the peoples rights and freedoms and give more power to the state. This country can go to war at any time, not on the say so of the people, not on the say so of our elected representatives in Parliament but on the say so of one man, Tony Blair, that is the law as it stands and you can argue all you want that it was the state which declared war not Britain but Britain will still be at war.

I understand perfectly well that the state and the people are two different things. thats what ive been trying to say. That the state may declare war doesnt mean that Britain does. The newspapers may say, "britain seind troops to iraq", but its the state that controls them, so the people, the real Britain, can't do much about it. and just so i dont repeat anybody, read dreadnoughts post.

[celtic 302]

If the nukes had been dropped on military targets there would not be so much revulsion for it today.

The bomb dropped on Nagaski was supposedly "justifiable", because Nagasaki was an army fort... make of it what you want.

[Gleber2]

Ok, I have a question. Did the Japanese or German's have any nuclear weapons at the time of Hiroshima? Please excuse my lack of knowledge in this area. Now if they didn't have nuc weapons, but were building them, do you think that they would NOT have used them.
(No shouting intended, just emphasis)

This comment could have already been made, but I don't have the time to read every post on a 5 billion gazillion page thread, Sorry!
Lola
PS, and don't be nasty about my ignorance and lack of knowledge, I am asking, so as to fill this very obvious void in my life and understanding of all things pertaining to the second world war.

The German scientists were working on the bomb at the same time as Britain
and USA. We beat them to it. Mind you, the major brains behind the research were Jewish so maybe God helped us a little

[Kaishowing]

You may have seen a film called 'Heroes Of Telemark' sometime about the destruction of a heavy water plant in Rjukan in Norway?
That was based on the real operation 'Freshman' set up the Allies.
The plant at Rjukan was exclusively a heavy water facility, and the hydrogen enriched water was used in the production of plutonium intended for use in the Nazi atomic programme.
In February 1943 the facility was destroyed, but it had been targeted before for destruction without success in 1942.....so the allies were well aware of the Nazi atomic programme, and were trying anything to slow down their development.
The fact that the Nazi research into rockets were so far advanced was a terrible threat...but even more so had they the ability of send an atomic payload to London in a V2 or even small versions in the Doodlebugs.
Different ending perhaps!?!

http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/freshman.htm

[Lolabelle]

The German scientists were working on the bomb at the same time as Britain
and USA. We beat them to it. Mind you, the major brains behind the research were Jewish so maybe God helped us a little

Thanks Gleber2, I thought it was more than likely some kind of weapons race, it usually seems to go that way.

[pultneytooner]

The German scientists were working on the bomb at the same time as Britain
and USA. We beat them to it. Mind you, the major brains behind the research were Jewish so maybe God helped us a little

With a little help from some nazi scientists who should have been tried for warcrimes but got a free run in the states to help with their nuclear developement program.