Enola Gay

[Kaishowing]

I don't know if it was wrong or right to use the bomb on Hiroshima...but I believe that the Nagasaki bombing wasn't needed at all.
I can understand that given the almost fanatical resistance that the Japanese military were showing, despite being regarded as being a beaten force, bringing the Pacific war to a swift end by dropping 'Little Boy' was perhaps a wise move.
There was no real way of knowing how many more lives could have been lost through conventional warfare by delaying the use of the bomb, and after bombing about another 60 japanese cities to dust with conventional bombs, there was obviously no moral problem for the Americans.

More than anything else though, the decision to use 'The Bomb' was based on justifying the huge cost spent on the Manhatten project....but more importantly it was to send a message to the Soviets who were already looking to the future after the war.
That's probably why the 2nd bomb was dropped...to show Stalin that the 1st wasn't a fluke.
As usual lives were lost to play the political game.

[fred]

You make a lot of assumptions don't you jaws?

Ah, someone else is starting to notice.

BTW The political faction which has taken control of the American Government were nicknamed "The Crazies" back in the 70s and 80s because they were campaigning for nuclear war with the USSR. They have managed to get the rules of engagement changed to allow pre-emtive nuclear strikes.

If Israel threatens Syria then Syria will respond and so will Iran, they have a mutual defence treaty. If America backs Israel then Russia and China will back Iran and that will be WWIII and it would almost certainly go nuclear with Neocons at the helm.

There are a lot of threads about 9/11, Iraq, Lebanon, the price of petrol, but they are all about the same thing. Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon arn't three different wars they are all part of the same war and wars are easy to start, easily escalate and get out of hand, are very hard things to stop and attrocities are always committed by both sides.

My uncle was a Japanese prisoner of war, all my parents generation were in WWII, my grandfather was in the trenches in WWI. We didn't know about 9/11 or 7/7 then but we knew about 11/11/11 we were never allowed to forget because it was so important not to forget, by remembering the horrors of war we could make certain it never happened again and that was the one thing my parents generation and their parents generation deemed more important than anything else. They would be appalled at how eager some people are to see the start of WWIII today, they would think we'd gone mad.

We must never forget the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, never pretend it wasn't an attrocity, never try to excuse it and never ever let it happen again.

[pultneytooner]

I don't know if it was wrong or right to use the bomb on Hiroshima...but I believe that the Nagasaki bombing wasn't needed at all.
I can understand that given the almost fanatical resistance that the Japanese military were showing, despite being regarded as being a beaten force, bringing the Pacific war to a swift end by dropping 'Little Boy' was perhaps a wise move.
There was no real way of knowing how many more lives could have been lost through conventional warfare by delaying the use of the bomb, and after bombing about another 60 japanese cities to dust with conventional bombs, there was obviously no moral problem for the Americans.

More than anything else though, the decision to use 'The Bomb' was based on justifying the huge cost spent on the Manhatten project....but more importantly it was to send a message to the Soviets who were already looking to the future after the war.
That's probably why the 2nd bomb was dropped...to show Stalin that the 1st wasn't a fluke.
As usual lives were lost to play the political game.

Ah, someone else is starting to notice.

BTW The political faction which has taken control of the American Government were nicknamed "The Crazies" back in the 70s and 80s because they were campaigning for nuclear war with the USSR. They have managed to get the rules of engagement changed to allow pre-emtive nuclear strikes.

If Israel threatens Syria then Syria will respond and so will Iran, they have a mutual defence treaty. If America backs Israel then Russia and China will back Iran and that will be WWIII and it would almost certainly go nuclear with Neocons at the helm.

There are a lot of threads about 9/11, Iraq, Lebanon, the price of petrol, but they are all about the same thing. Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon arn't three different wars they are all part of the same war and wars are easy to start, easily escalate and get out of hand, are very hard things to stop and attrocities are always committed by both sides.

My uncle was a Japanese prisoner of war, all my parents generation were in WWII, my grandfather was in the trenches in WWI. We didn't know about 9/11 or 7/7 then but we knew about 11/11/11 we were never allowed to forget because it was so important not to forget, by remembering the horrors of war we could make certain it never happened again and that was the one thing my parents generation and their parents generation deemed more important than anything else. They would be appalled at how eager some people are to see the start of WWIII today, they would think we'd gone mad.

We must never forget the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, never pretend it wasn't an attrocity, never try to excuse it and never ever let it happen again.

Thank you both for your sensible thoughts on this thread that was all I asked for.

[JAWS]

The Crazies, also known as Code Name Trixie, is a 1973 American horror film about the effects of an accidental release of a military biological weapon on the inhabitants of an American town. It was written & directed by George A Romero. It starred Lane Carroll, Richard Liberty & Lynn Lowry. The film has two basic storylines. One follows the efforts of a group of civilians to stay alive during the disaster; the other follows the efforts of political & military leaders to contain the epidemic of violent insanity induced by the weapon. As often in Romeros work, the military are subjected to withering satire. Ordered to find the first expert they can lay hands on & convey him to the stricken town, the soldiers do precisely that, thus isolating the one man who might be able to find a cure in the middle of a disaster area with primitive facilities. The scientists protests that he will be more useful in a proper laboratory are overridden with the threat of brute force.

That aside, The Crazies gives us a glimpse into the breakdown of society. After a chemical agent is mistakenly let loose on a small Pennsylvania city, the film shows us the effects through the eyes of three groups of people; The Military Scientists & Normal citizens Whilst the film is not itself terrifying, you will be disturbed at the fact that it could happen.

http://www.dvdark.co.uk/c/prod/p5VY9W/

That's the only reference to "The Crazies" and the Military in America during the 1970s/80s.

The only other "Crazies" seem to be the description applied to those who took part in the real "Cannonball Runs". To give those who have no idea what thet were they made a comedy film about them of the same name.

Has anybody else heard the term "The Crazies" in relation to trying to start World War Three with the USSR?
I really shouldn't ask that question because I can feel a "Reagan Rage" coming on!

[JAWS]

Thank you both for your sensible thoughts on this thread that was all I asked for.

Well that was obvious from the start. You knew that you would automatically get what you were seeking. “All I wanted was to have “sensible” people who would see everything my way!”
Or to put it another way, “Anybody who does not agree with me must be absolutely senseless!”
We all know who would agree with you so the all thing was nothing more that to provide a platform for a particular point of view.

You can think what you wish about Hiroshima because, by now, it serves no more purpose than fretting over John Balliol and Robert Bruce and which one should have been the rightful King of Scotland.
Doing something to ansure it doesn't happen again is a worthwhile effort but simply complaining, "What terrible things were done!" in an attempt to make people feel some kind of distaste for previous generations serves no purpose at all.

“I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds” was the comment Robert Oppenheimer made when the first bomb was tested at Los Alamos and not about Hiroshima.

His comment to Paul Tibbets, the Commander of the “Enola Gay” prior to the mission was, “Your biggest problem may be after the bomb has left your aircraft. The shock waves from the detonation could crush your plane. I am afraid that I can give you no guarantee that you will survive. “

The first bomb was dropped on the 6th of August, the second on the 9th. Japan surrendered on the following day the 10th.of August.

All the comments about what would have happened had the bombs not been used is nothing more than pure speculation.

To take the Island of Okinawa took over 80 days. The Japanese suffered 90,000 dead, when defeat became inevitable many jumped from cliffs to their deaths rather than be taken prisoner. Many Japanese women on the Island took exactly the same action, some with their babies in their arms.. The facts are well documented and are also on film. And no, the film isn’t “manufactured propaganda”, even the Japanese accept it as factual.
It says a lot about the Japanese mind set that only 4,000 soldiers were able to be taken prisoner. That’s was from a force of almost 100,000 Japanese defending one Island which was over 300 miles from the Japanese mainland. That battle ended only some six weeks before the bomb at Hiroshima.

Nobody knew what the Japanese reaction would be if it came to a land invasion of the Japanese Mainland.

Of course, once the War ended the probability of what might have happened could be more easily assessed.
But anybody can predict the winners of yesterday’s horse races, but could the same people tell you every winner of tomorrows races?

[MadPict]

Without the Atomic strikes against Japan we could be talking about the 1939-1949 Second World War. The Japanese were not going to give up their soil willingly.
While the raids on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible, resulting in huge casualties and severe damage it would have been nothing compared to the casualties and probable flattening of the whole of Japan by conventional weapons.
So it did shorten the war by years.

And now we can all drive around in Japanese cars, watch Japanese televisions, use Japanese mobile phones and eat sushi....

Who won?.....

[JAWS]

Without the Atomic strikes against Japan we could be talking about the 1939-1949 Second World War. The Japanese were not going to give up their soil willingly.
While the raids on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible, resulting in huge casualties and severe damage it would have been nothing compared to the casualties and probable flattening of the whole of Japan by conventional weapons.
So it did shorten the war by years.

And now we can all drive around in Japanese cars, watch Japanese televisions, use Japanese mobile phones and eat sushi....

Who won?.....

What I find absolutely amazing is that, after some of the bile poured out by certain posters about America and Britain and their actions, is the difference when I compare it to the dignity of those who had suffered as POWs at the hands of the Japanese.

Most, if they knew you well enough would admit that they personally had an intense hatred of the Japanese which I could and still can understand. But nevr once did I hear one of them try to indoctrinate either me or their own children that we should feel the same way. They had the sense and dignity to know that spreading venom to us about the Japanese would serve no useful purpose at all.
When Japanese Motorbikes started to be imported there were no howls of disgust, nobody demonstrated outside the Motor Bike dealers selling them. Nobody thought of going and smashing the windows or demanding boycotts.

When, as youths, we bought Japanese Bikes, whatever their feelings were they kept to themselves and never even muttered a complaint. They knew how to behave with dignity and with pride.

What a different attitude nowadays, if you don’t like a countries outlets in certain products, let’s smash the place up. If you don’t agree with a Country then try and indoctrinate everybody into following your beliefs.

I certainly know who’s methods I find more appealing. Nobody ever tried to convince me that everything Japan was doing was to be detested, nobody tried to convince me that any Country linked to Japan was to be equally detested.

Neither, despite the Football rivalry and the taunts, many of which I find absolutely disgraceful, was I taught to feel any dislike of the Germans or any of their allies.

What a difference between then and now. It certainly says a lot about the way attitudes have changed over the years and now we wonder why many of the youngsters of today in certain places seem to be so intolerant of others.
I seems to me that they are being well trained by people who should know better.

[celtic 302]

We must never forget the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, never pretend it wasn't an attrocity, never try to excuse it and never ever let it happen again.

did a man not once say: "the man who forgets history repeats it". it may have been said about the persecution of jews by hitler, but i think it syas alot.

also, the bombing stopped the war with japan, and a lot of people, proably more than wat was killed by the bombs, would have died at the hands off both US and Japanesse soldiers. The way the people at Hiroshima and Nagaski is died is as horrible a way to die as any, but there deaths were justified and could be seen as a necessary sacrifice.

It is hard to just death, but in the cases of H and N, i think it is justified. In war some live some die, or to coin a popular phrase, "u win some and u lose some", a win i think...

[fred]

Without the Atomic strikes against Japan we could be talking about the 1939-1949 Second World War. The Japanese were not going to give up their soil willingly.

Rubbish, the Japanese had been trying to surrender all summer, it's just that America demanded unconditional surrender.

The war would have been over in weeks even without killing all those innocent people at Hiroshima and Nagasaki but it would have been Russia doing the invading not America. Japan was dead in the water, didn't even have enough fuel to send fighters up to defend their cities from American bombers. America had done all the hard work and Russia was going to march in and take the spoils.

[MadPict]

Rubbish? Bit rich coming from the king of rubbish on these forums.
You believe your anti American version of history if you want to.
I can't be bothered arguing the toss with you or you supporters.
I have some paint I want to watch dry.

I didnt have anyone on my ignore list until today.
Hope you don't get too lonely in there. I have left some good history books written by Americans for you to read.......

[fred]

Has anybody else heard the term "The Crazies" in relation to trying to start World War Three with the USSR?
I really shouldn't ask that question because I can feel a "Reagan Rage" coming on!

Try a google search on "crazies in the basement" and see how many hits you come up with.

[JAWS]

Try a google search on "crazies in the basement" and see how many hits you come up with.

I found loads of sites. I checked through five pages. There were plenty of sites about Music and DVDs.
In the five pages of sites there were the usual “War Without End”, and an Independent Media Centre site which gave me Page Unavailable but he Home Page says everything you need to know about the site, it was a long list of the usual anti-American articles.

I gave up after five pages having found only one article from the type of location I could have predicted. The Site is War Without End, the author of the article is one Scott Ritter. When you check some of his other articles you get the distinct sound of Axes Being Ground,

The only reference to “Crazies in the Basement” would appear to have been a comment by George Bush Senior.
I can’t quite remember which part of the 1970s Bush Senior was President.
It would appear that the comment was a one-off made under unknown circumstanced.
.

[Dreadnought]

Without the Atomic strikes against Japan we could be talking about the 1939-1949 Second World War

On another forum I have many friends in FSU (Former Soviet Union) countries. They and many of their countrymen are firmly of the opinion that WW2 did not end until the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1990.
They believe they were left to their fate under Stalin and his successors by Roosevelt and (to a lesser extent because he wanted the Russians to be forced to withdraw to their pre-war borders) Churchill when they drew up their post war plan for Europe at the Yalta conference in February 1945.

[fred]

Rubbish? Bit rich coming from the king of rubbish on these forums.
You believe your anti American version of history if you want to.
I can't be bothered arguing the toss with you or you supporters.
I have some paint I want to watch dry.

Cognitive Dissonance, that's what it's called what you and others are doing.

Cognitive Dissonance Theory says that when faced with a conflict between how someone percieves themself and how they behave it will cause anxiety and they will resolve the axiety by altering reality.

Basically if someone sees themselves as a kind generous person and one day find themselves walking past a begger asking for money for food they will resolve the conflict by telling themselves that the begger only wanted the money to buy drink or drugs with and they will believe that above all else even though there is no evidence to support it. They will never even consider the possibility that they arn't as kind and generous as they think they are.

So when faced with the fact we murdered thousands of innocent women and children at Hiroshima and Nagasaki for political ends they believe we saved the lives of millions of Japanese and American servicemen who would have been killed in the invasion. When faced with the fact we invaded Iraq, a sovereign nation, not because they were a threat but for political reasons then they tell themselves we did them a favour bringing them freedom and democracy. When faced with the fact we are supporting Israel, a ruthless aggressor, they say things like "what can they do, the Arabs are trying to drive them into the sea" or "it's in Lebanons interests that any ceasfire is permanent".

They will never even consider the possibility that how we percieve ourselves and how we behave are two different things.

[fred]

I found loads of sites. I checked through five pages. There were plenty of sites about Music and DVDs.
In the five pages of sites there were the usual “War Without End”, and an Independent Media Centre site which gave me Page Unavailable but he Home Page says everything you need to know about the site, it was a long list of the usual anti-American articles.

So you found the evidence which you wanted to believe didn't exist but don't want to believe it anyway.

Colin Powell called the Neocons "crazies" too, can't tell you what the first word was.

[celtic 302]

Cognitive Dissonance, that's what it's called what you and others are doing.

Cognitive Dissonance Theory says that when faced with a conflict between how someone percieves themself and how they behave it will cause anxiety and they will resolve the axiety by altering reality.

Basically if someone sees themselves as a kind generous person and one day find themselves walking past a begger asking for money for food they will resolve the conflict by telling themselves that the begger only wanted the money to buy drink or drugs with and they will believe that above all else even though there is no evidence to support it. They will never even consider the possibility that they arn't as kind and generous as they think they are.

So when faced with the fact we murdered thousands of innocent women and children at Hiroshima and Nagasaki for political ends they believe we saved the lives of millions of Japanese and American servicemen who would have been killed in the invasion. When faced with the fact we invaded Iraq, a sovereign nation, not because they were a threat but for political reasons then they tell themselves we did them a favour bringing them freedom and democracy. When faced with the fact we are supporting Israel, a ruthless aggressor, they say things like "what can they do, the Arabs are trying to drive them into the sea" or "it's in Lebanons interests that any ceasfire is permanent".

They will never even consider the possibility that how we percieve ourselves and how we behave are two different things.

a couple fo things. firstly, the whole post is a lot of rubbish, and secondly, when you say that we are supporting israel, thats not the complete truth. the truth is that our government is supporting israel(well mr blair anyway) not nessesarily the people of GB. wat ur saying is that everyone supporst israel because our gov does, and, simply, thats wrong.

[fred]

a couple fo things. firstly, the whole post is a lot of rubbish, and secondly, when you say that we are supporting israel, thats not the complete truth. the truth is that our government is supporting israel(well mr blair anyway) not nessesarily the people of GB. wat ur saying is that everyone supporst israel because our gov does, and, simply, thats wrong.

We elect a government and that government makes decisions on our behalf. If our government supports Israel then the people of Britain as a whole support Israel regardless of what each individual does.

[celtic 302]

do you support israel fred?

[sjwahwah]

a couple fo things. firstly, the whole post is a lot of rubbish, and secondly, when you say that we are supporting israel, thats not the complete truth. the truth is that our government is supporting israel(well mr blair anyway) not nessesarily the people of GB. wat ur saying is that everyone supporst israel because our gov does, and, simply, thats wrong.

when we stand by while our government whom we have supposedly elected lets the Americans fly in and out of Scotland weapons of mass destruction to help the Israeli army kill Lebanese & Palestinian folk and nobody does one thing about it we are supporting Israel. full stop.

[celtic 302]

1. there not weapons of mass destrucion. WoMD are Nucs, where as the weapons that were at prestwick for a while were laser guided missiles. 2. im a youth, who isnt old enought to vote, so wat can i do, and who would really listen????