Enola Gay

[Chobbersjnr]

Gleber2.............

I'll be picking a bone wi you

[Saveman]

This is certainly an interesting thread and we've seen some of the more amiable orgers play their hands, DrSzin getting down and dirty with the fission.......Canuck revealing all about her varied faiths and almost disagreeing with someone and Gleber2 coming as close to the finest literature prose as this forum has ever seen....wow!
I'm impressed. However.......you can't all be right.

I agree with Gleber2's belief that the end is coming.....so we haven't long to wait to find out eh?

[pultneytooner]

A nice post Canuck, but I feel I should answer it and Gleeber's previous one.

I believe in the Law of Kharma. In this life and whatever is to come, we get what we deserve. Not what we think we deserve but what we have rightfully earned, be it good or bad. In the Christian religion, it is believed that there is a Heaven and a Hell(and a pugatory if you are the other sort of Christian) and where we end up depends how good we are in this life and whether or not we believe in Christ( The only way unto the Father is through me, even though you are black evil you can repent on Sunday and be forgiven if you believe in me). The Muslims are told they will go to Paradise if they obey the Mullahs and keep Allah's laws as laid down by Mohammed. I could go on but I think that I have said enough to indicate that every religion, belief or faith dangles their own carrot and makes their own promises about the rewards of being faithful.. I do not believe in the Christian mythos or any other religious dogma purveyed by books, prophets and preachers.
My own belief in the Law of Kharma calls for me to actually live the laws of Christ without believing the religious aspect. So many Christians are ever so holy but are not practising the teachings of Jesus. He who has raised his intellectual understanding to the point where he goes beyond the Bible and takes the commandaments a little bit more seriously realises that Thou Shalt Not Kill covers all living creatures not just fellow man. He has a cleaner kharma than he who kills anything he pleases except humans. 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you' is common sense. How many religious people actually practise this in day to day life? The hypocrisy of religion, in my book, can never provide a gateway to paradise even if that paradise exists. My own beliefs have changed with the years and the experiences of what could be termed a strange lifetime and I have changed with these changes. To me it does not matter what happens after death but I will hedge my bets by deliberately keeping my kharmic debt to a minimum just in case.
I don't need a religion or faith to do this. I cannot admit, even at my lowest moments, that there is no point to life on Earth and I have come to believe that this life is one of many on a path to enlightenment and it is what we achieve in our search for higher meaning which is the point of life. We all start with the same bag of tools and the same book of rules. It is what we do with them that decides where we go when we croak. Back on the Wheel to try again or on to the next stage.

As far as the gloom and doom aspects of this thread are concerned. We are in the midst of unprecedented climate change brought on by our rampant consumerism. We cannot repair this. We have created holes in the ozone layer. We cannot repair this. Our atmosphere is getting more polluted by the minute. We cannot repair this. More and more volcanoes are showing signs of erruption. We cannot control this. The sea is a chemical soup. We cannot stop it. We are in danger of nuclear war. We could stop it but some nations are too crazy to even try to stop it. We have more starving, lost people than at any time in our history. Who has really tried to stop it? We have Aids and other diseases almost endemic. We seem incapable of stopping it. We have destroyed the land by over fertilising it in the name of greed, not nescessity and we are destroying the rain forests which are our air purifiers..
I am sure that if I wanted to, I could extend this list for a long time. My point is that the ecosystem that sustains life on Earth appears to be self healing but we have, in my opinion, pushed the limits of that process and we now expect miracles to ensure our future. We are pollutung and raping the planet at an unprecedented rate and there is a limit to the bashing that any system can take before it collapses. It will not need an atomic holocaust to destroy life on Earth. The inate goodness of humanity maybe a factor in your thinking, Canuck, but I am afraid I lost faith in the human race a long time ago.
I believe that it is too late for we humans to do anything to avert the impending disaster and all I can do is to make sure that my Kharmic debt is low enough to ensure my personal survival into the next stage of existance. If all my beliefs are bunkum then when I die I will be dead and won't care if I am right or wrong. If I am right?????

Maybe this will interest you.

[Gleber2]

Maybe this will interest you.

Thanks Pt. I have been a firm believer in something akin to the Gaia theory for a long time. A perfect system with humankind the only flaw.

[crayola]

I must point out here and now that I posted this when Chobbersjnr was loggedin but I am not he, I am Gleber2.
There's a word for your babble lassie, but if I use it I will get banned. You have the temerity to preach at people after a mere course in the subject of healing and your words are empty vessels which carry no weight. Another five to ten years under a real master and you might learn enough humility to realise that you know nothing. Then you might begin to learn.

I'm sorry you feel that way but if you ever want to come and seek help the ofer is still open. I don't judge people by their negative posts, even those who have problems with ego and humility. I worry about the insularity of some of our fellow Cathnessians. Go out and sample a bit of life outside of it and come back and tell me I'm wrong. Travel afar. Have you ever travelled to Koenigsburg or Rostock? They are mind expanding.

Sometimes I have the feeling that people don't take me seriously, especially when I introduce esotoric concepts like global consciousness into the equation. It isn't all pot noodle nonsense you know. It's the subject of serious research by scholars from Princeton. Got to this site for the gory details. It's been proved here.

[crayola]

Thanks Pt. I have been a firm believer in something akin to the Gaia theory for a long time. A perfect system with humankind the only flaw.

There you go again. Putting your kind down without good reason. If you truly understood Gaia you would know you couldn't possibly say humankind is a flaw. The whole idea behind Gaia is that living systems balance themselves despite imbalances caused by man or any external influence or effluents.

[Dreadnought]

There you go again. Putting your kind down without good reason. If you truly understood Gaia you would know you couldn't possibly say humankind is a flaw. The whole idea behind Gaia is that living systems balance themselves despite imbalances caused by man or any external influence or effluents.

How well does an immune system balance itself against, say, ebola virus? It doesn't, it dies. We are Earth's ebola virus.

[j4bberw0ck]

How well does an immune system balance itself against, say, ebola virus? It doesn't, it dies. We are Earth's ebola virus.

It's something of a mystery to me how people conclude that humans are always the villains of the piece. Maybe it's low self-esteem

OK, we're not a particularly prepossessing lot for a good deal of the time. We are, though, the product of evolution.

Try this:

In evolution, genetic change has produced a series of creatures which ended up as top predator. It used to be dinosaurs when size and bulk was important, now it's us because brains are important.

The purpose of evolution is the refinement of the DNA genetic message.

The purpose of DNA is to reproduce itself

The purpose of Gaia is the provision of an environment (a nursery if you will) for the DNA genetic message to be safe

Humans represent the highest expression so far of DNA and are the first DNA creation with brains and skills enough to have a chance to get off the planet

Ultimately, when the science and engineering is mastered, humans - the DNA "fruiting body" - will leave the earth and spread through the solar system and then wider, increasing the chance of DNA survival.



Perhaps in doing so it'll become necessary for DNA to fight for its own survival against some form of life based on a different "DNA" (different "DNA" but with the same built-in imperatives of survival / reproduction etc) and so evolution carries on. Perhaps that's why aggression and violence seem to be so much a part of animals, especially us. It's a valuable genetic trait in the survival stakes. Not survival of the human - of the DNA.

If you believe the Gaia philosophy, why not look at it positively, and view the wonders humans have achieved and are yet to achieve as part of the grand design? We have no information one way or the other so there's no point making yourself miserable, unless of course you enjoy being miserable......

The mushroom analogy above works rather well. All the action in fungus is in its mycelia; they grow and whiffle away happily under the ground where it's safe and they're invisible. Then it needs to reproduce and up pops a mushroom to dump a load of spores. Humans are the mushroom, created only to be able to spread their DNA, to ensure its survival. Perhaps there's some Galactic Antonio Carlucci waiting to pick us and fry us up with garlic......

Do I believe all this? No. But then I don't believe in Gaia as an organism either. Although there are things which continue to make me think and wonder about how well my hard science upbringing explains some of what goes on - or seems to go on - in the world. There.......I've said it! Arrgghh.......

[golach]

I'm sorry you feel that way but if you ever want to come and seek help the ofer is still open. I don't judge people by their negative posts, even those who have problems with ego and humility. I worry about the insularity of some of our fellow Cathnessians. Go out and sample a bit of life outside of it and come back and tell me I'm wrong. Travel afar. Have you ever travelled to Koenigsburg or Rostock? They are mind expanding.

Sometimes I have the feeling that people don't take me seriously, especially when I introduce esotoric concepts like global consciousness into the equation. It isn't all pot noodle nonsense you know. It's the subject of serious research by scholars from Princeton. Got to this site for the gory details. It's been proved here.

Glad to see you back from your travels Crayola, did you clock up many airmiles on your broomstick?
No seriously, glad to see you back, need some other views in here these days, although I am not a believer, what a change from the usual conspiracy threads. I am learning new words like "esotoric". As for travel expanding the mind, every been to Goose bay, Rimouski, Sept Illes or Isle aux Morts, now they ARE mind expanding

[MadPict]

Glastonbury used to be pretty mind expanding.....

Wish folk wuld at leest get the spelin korrekt wen thay yous mistereus wurds.......

[Gleber2]

I'm sorry you feel that way but if you ever want to come and seek help the ofer is still open. I don't judge people by their negative posts, even those who have problems with ego and humility. I worry about the insularity of some of our fellow Cathnessians. Go out and sample a bit of life outside of it and come back and tell me I'm wrong. Travel afar. Have you ever travelled to Koenigsburg or Rostock? They are mind expanding.

Sometimes I have the feeling that people don't take me seriously, especially when I introduce esotoric concepts like global consciousness into the equation. It isn't all pot noodle nonsense you know. It's the subject of serious research by scholars from Princeton. Got to this site for the gory details. It's been proved here.

You make too many assumptions when you talk to me, my dear aspiring witch. Do not assume that I have not travelled. I have, extensively. How can I ask help from some-one who admits to taking weekend courses in Wicca. It's not that I don't take the subject matter of your posts seriously, it's you in your org persona that I find amusing. You are not alone in your use of esoteric terminology but you show an intellectual pride in your carefully bought knowledge which I find amusing although you patronising attitude is a wee bit annoying. Having you reply to me in your usual condescending fashion is like a first year pupil trying to impress a senior with what he has learned.
Observing the sorry state of poor old Gaia and the insanity of the human race
how can I not put down my own kind. The system is so out of balance that no immune system can put it right. My attitude is not at all negative, it is completely realistic and is based on a continuing observation of the game and our ecosystem for over thirty years using what was learned in the previous thirty. Dreadnought has the right of it but I consider the human race to be a cancer, not a virus

[Gleber2]

Glastonbury used to be pretty mind expanding.....

Wish folk wuld at leest get the spelin korrekt wen thay yous mistereus wurds.......

Your posts are beginning to read like a petulant complaining little boy venting his spleen. Lighten up Pict

Glastonbury in the seventies taught me a lot about the subjects under discussion and was quite mind expanding.

[canuck]

It's something of a mystery to me how people conclude that humans are always the villains of the piece. Maybe it's low self-esteem

The purpose of evolution is the refinement of the DNA genetic message.

The purpose of DNA is to reproduce itself

The purpose of Gaia is the provision of an environment (a nursery if you will) for the DNA genetic message to be safe

Humans represent the highest expression so far of DNA and are the first DNA creation with brains and skills enough to have a chance to get off the planet

Ultimately, when the science and engineering is mastered, humans - the DNA "fruiting body" - will leave the earth and spread through the solar system and then wider, increasing the chance of DNA survival.

Where this all falls off the rails for me is somewhere in the murkiness between the altruistic Gaia concept of genetic survival and the worldly reality of vengeance as a way of life.

[j4bberw0ck]

Where this all falls off the rails for me is somewhere in the murkiness between the altruistic Gaia concept of genetic survival and the worldly reality of vengeance as a way of life.

It was written very much tongue-in-cheek; I just wanted to show that another (and more positive) view is possible from the same background concept. Albeit a more positive view which relegates humanity to being the vehicle by which DNA spreads beyond this small planet.

[DrSzin]

It was written very much tongue-in-cheek; I just wanted to show that another (and more positive) view is possible from the same background concept. Albeit a more positive view which relegates humanity to being the vehicle by which DNA spreads beyond this small planet.

Your post may have been tongue-in-cheek but I think there are too many people in this world who take Dawkins-style "selfish gene" ideas much too literally. IMHO Dawkins suffers from being far too reductionist in almost everything he pontificates on. I'm no great fan of Phil Anderson's opinions but I think he's spot on when he makes a big fuss about his claim that More is Different. Blaming the human race's actions on genes alone is like saying that all of Chemistry is electromagnetism, and all of Biology is explained by Chemistry, therefore the actions of human beings are explained by electromagnetism. In a naive sense it's true, but it's utterly useless in practice, and you can't use it to predict or explain the actions of man or any other complex living creature.

[j4bberw0ck]

Your post may have been tongue-in-cheek

I quite enjoyed the thought of humanity as a mushroom. Deep in the malodorous stuff, here today, gone tomorrow and eminently edible between times. Well, some, anyway. Fundamentalist mushrooms of any persuasion might stick in the throat; a few might explode spontaneously. Witchy "magic" mushrooms could drive you insane as they alter perceptions of reality (this is intended to be light-hearted and not to cause offence!). Politicians might be puffballs - because what they say is a load of both, as they try to make themselves larger than life. <sticks head above battlements> I wonder what sort of mushrooms would bulletin board contributors be?

[Gleber2]

> I wonder what sort of mushrooms would bulletin board contributors be?

One of the varieties of Amanitas, most of which are poisonous.

I'm glad your Gaia post was tongue in cheek as I was on the verge of risking falling out with you again.

[Gleber2]

There you go again. Putting your kind down without good reason. If you truly understood Gaia you would know you couldn't possibly say humankind is a flaw. The whole idea behind Gaia is that living systems balance themselves despite imbalances caused by man or any external influence or effluents.

Every system is stable until the balance is pushed beyond saving and, like a row of dominoes, it only takes one push to bring it all down. No amount of philosophic optimism will save our bacon when the time comes. As in the case of many old people, the auto-immune system will go crazy in Old Mother Earth and the whole ecosystem will collapse.

[pultneytooner]

Every system is stable until the balance is pushed beyond saving and, like a row of dominoes, it only takes one push to bring it all down. No amount of philosophic optimism will save our bacon when the time comes. As in the case of many old people, the auto-immune system will go crazy in Old Mother Earth and the whole ecosystem will collapse.

The earth will adapt and survive, even if it means extiguishing humankind.

[Gleber2]

The earth will adapt and survive, even if it means extiguishing humankind.

That is the optimist's cop-out.