Enola Gay

[pultneytooner]

Radiation - Nuclear -Atomic - Grrrrrrrrrr8 STUFF!

Lets face it where would we be without it !
Thurso and indeed Caithness wouldn't be what it is today.
Orgers would be talking about sheep , tatties 'n' turnips !

And that would be sooooo baaahhhhd would it?
If it wasn't for dounreay we'd all be a bunch of bucktoothed inbreds making moonshine in them thar hills.
All hail dounreay for we all took a leap in intelligence when you arived.

[Gleber2]

Weel Gleeber, are we reaching a point of agreement after fifty years? We might not be eye to eye but getting there.

[DrSzin]

nuclear weapons being used in the middle east right now in Lebanon and Iraq.. on civilians, soldiers, women, children.. even babies!!!

Should I respond to this somewhat inflammatory post? I think I should just to clear the air a little.

Most people would not describe DU weapons as nuclear weapons. They contain uranium - just like the bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima on August 6, 1945 - but there are huge differences. Here are a few of them, elaborated in a very simple-minded fashion:

• The destructive power of the Hiroshima bomb came from the splitting of the uranium nucleus into two lighter nuclei, plus neutrons and other radiation - aka nuclear fission. An enormous amount of energy is released in the fission process because the resulting light nuclei have higher binding energies than the parent uranium nucleus. This energy was stored in the uranium nucleus which is held together by the strong nuclear force. Hence the name nuclear weapon. The explosive release of nuclear energy creates an enormous firebomb which gives the weapon its godawful destructive power. It also leaves behind long-lived radioactive byproducts and gives off huge amounts of "radiation" of various sorts. It's all very nasty...
• The idea behind weapons containing depleted uranium (DU) is very different. DU is very heavy and very hard, so it does more damage in the simple way that heavy and hard things always do. They are hard to stop, and they pierce armour. DU is used to make bullets and shells. In this case the DU is the core of the shell; in simple terms it is the shell - it's not just the pointy tip. DU is also pyrophoric, it burns easily at room temperature, and it burns and explodes once inside its target. This leaves behind the infamous radioactive DU dust that is of great concern. DU is also (alledgedly?) used in the casing for smart bombs, cruise missiles, and perhaps other weapons. Note that DU weapons do not release energy from the nucleus. Their extraordinary effectiveness comes from their kinetic energy (via their heaviness and high speed), and from chemical energy released in self-burning or by conventional chemical explosives. So DU weapons are clearly not nuclear weapons in the usual sense.

Is it therefore incorrect to say that DU weapons are nuclear weapons? I would "yes, it is incorrect" simply because DU weapons release essentially no nuclear energy when used, and no nuclear processes take place during that time. It's perhaps possible to make the opposite case because DU weapons leave behind lots of uranium (obviously!), and this is radioactive. But I think that's pushing semantics to the limit.

DU is also chemically toxic, and I must admit that I don't know whether the toxicity or radioactive danger is worse. I would guess there are experts reading this who are cringing at my naive attempts to explain all this.

In Iraq the depleted uranium radiation equals that of 250,000 Nagasaki bombs! After the last Gulf war they report 67% of children that are born in the former battle regions are born with some type of birth defect from all the depleted uranium WE used over there and continue to do so now... what isn't gloomy about that and what will these childrens lives be like in future? btw... Canada is the LARGEST exporter of uranium.

Where did you get the birth-defect figure of 67%? I Googled for a while but the highest figure I found was 3%. Perhaps I was looking in the wrong place.

Also, what is the justification for your claim that "in Iraq the depleted uranium radiation equals that of 250,000 Nagasaki bombs"? I'm sure that that the explosive power was nowhere near that level, and you are clearly not claiming that anyway. It's also clear that the amount of DU used in Iraq is far higher than the 64kg of enriched uranium used in the Hiroshima bomb. Perhaps you are claiming that about 15,000 tonnes of DU were used in weapons in Iraq - that's roughly 250,000 times as much uranium as in the Hiroshima bomb. (The Nagasaki bomb was plutonium-based.) But that's not the same thing. Uranium 238 has a half-life of nearly 5 billion years so it'll be a long time before most of it emits anything! Yes, I know, that's not the point. The point is that there are pooloads of the stuff in Iraq (and elsewhere), it's a radioactive alpha-emitter and therefore very dangerous if ingested, it's chemically toxic, and it's gonna take forever to clean up the mess. In the meantime people will suffer, and some will suffer dreadfully.

DU weapons are nasty - make no mistake about it - but they ain't nuclear explosives. Have they been classified and banned as WMDs? "Yes", say many. "No", say the US military. Sigh...

Should they be banned? I like to think the world might see a way to ban them, but I can't see it happening soon. Please, please, please can we have a sensible Democrat in the White House next time?

Finally, the above is essentially a brain-dump and may contain a few errors. Feel free to point them out. I've also been lazy about quoting references. Yell if you need some.

[canuck]

Glebers last post takes us to the heart (and soul) of the problem that concerns all of us when atomic warfare is mentioned.
Ever since archeologists unearthed the first burial chamber, it has become apparent that human beings belief in Gods and afterlife has been around for a long time.
Not only does Gleber use his vision to see the future but he also uses it to suggest there are other levels of existance where his actions in this life will be taken into account in the next. Does that notion ring any bells?
The doom scenario, "the end of the world is nigh" is recorded in every holy book since the beginning of time. Its a human trait which has become more probable, ever since the blast that obliterated Hiroshima occured 60 years ago.
There's a certain inevitability in Glebers post, and although I see a similar inevitability Canucks posts, although she's more hopeful, I suspect both scenarios are powered by the personal religious beliefs they both hold.
That doesnt mean it's going to happen though.
My own faith lies in the goodness of the human animal to overcome the challenges before us.
Freud opened a door over 100 years ago and that door wont shut even though some of you think he was a fraud or barking up the wrong tree. He was warped and egotistical in his contact with people but his idea that the individual is a series of unconscious, as well as conscious drives and instincts is beyond dispute.
Its easier to replace those deep and dark motives hiding in the corners of our personalities with some religion or God rather than delve and become aware of the things that make us how we are.
Einstien explained the outside world and we all see the power that is released when his ideas are taken seriously.
Freud believed his new science would equip the individual to tackle the world in a different way. I think he may have been right.
PS. Freud had an "end of the world is nigh" thing too. He called it the death instinct.

gleeber, I agree with you, and Gleber2 writes that he agrees with you, but still there is a huge disconnect between G2 and myself. Maybe it is not so much that I disagree with G2, but rather I just don’t understand.

You are absolutely correct when you suggest that what I say is powered by my personal religious beliefs. And what I say is going to be coloured big time by the fact that I do not have a great deal of knowledge about the subjects of nuclear warfare and international politics. (On that front, I cannot thank the orgers enough for the all the learning I have enjoyed over the past 2 years. I agree with Cedric, "who needs a newspaper anymore, not even the National Inquirer.")

In regards to the idea of a divine reward or punishment based on the nature of one’s life on earth, that is not what I read out of the interpretation of the Biblical text. (But I know that it is a common belief. It is just not mine.) The beauty of this earthly life should of itself be motivation enough to strive for peace, justice and mercy. And so I can affirm gleeber’s interpretation of the divine as the will power (ingenuity) of humanity to get it right. I just happen to believe that there is a component of life that is beyond the chemistry that makes up the physical body, the chemistry that is also the emotions, the instincts, the drives to live in harmony. I call it spiritual. Although I have perhaps not experienced it in quite the profound way some orgers have, I still believe in it. That belief lets me at least listen to what Gleber2 has to say. I just don’t agree with his reward and punishment theory. I don’t deny the authenticity of his experience, just the interpretation of it.

I have no problem with psychology being of great importance in unlocking some of the keys to finding a peaceable future for humanity. I happen to be a Jungian, which basically means that added to the unconscious drivers of our own experience are the drivers we also unconsciously inherit from the past. I just happen to believe that in addition to all the chemically formulated memories of the body that there is a spiritual, an outside the body, component to life as well.

But back to psychology, one of my favorite helps for people looking to find compatible ways to relate to one another is the MyersBriggs personality profile. It is based on Jung’s work. Google it or go to http://www.myersbriggs.org/my_mbti_p...e/mbti_basics/. Yes, I am an ESTJ, who would have guessed. And this has to do with nuclear warfare how? Well, I think that in our discussion we have now started exploring pathways for the people of the world to keep from destroying themselves. And who knows, maybe we can even find a place where we can all enjoy ourselves. Do I think that we can do it? Yes. Maybe I am more trusting than gleeber first gave me credit?

Finally, a note about my use of "a new world order." I knew that it wasn’t an expression I would likely have come up with on my own. Not my style. Then I remembered the book which rich had given me to read at our June Toronto org chapter meeting. "Saturday" by Ian McEwan is full of the expression "a new order." He (McEwan, not rich) writes about the post 9/11 world.

Okay, I have said my bit, now back to the physics lesson. Hey, DrSzin it is fascinating.

[sjwahwah]

Should I respond to this somewhat inflammatory post? I think I should just to clear the air a little.

Most people would not describe DU weapons as nuclear weapons. They contain uranium - just like the bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima on August 6, 1945 - but there are huge differences. Here are a few of them, elaborated in a very simple-minded fashion:

• The destructive power of the Hiroshima bomb came from the splitting of the uranium nucleus into two lighter nuclei, plus neutrons and other radiation - aka nuclear fission. An enormous amount of energy is released in the fission process because the resulting light nuclei have higher binding energies than the parent uranium nucleus. This energy was stored in the uranium nucleus which is held together by the strong nuclear force. Hence the name nuclear weapon. The explosive release of nuclear energy creates an enormous firebomb which gives the weapon its godawful destructive power. It also leaves behind long-lived radioactive byproducts and gives off huge amounts of "radiation" of various sorts. It's all very nasty...
• The idea behind weapons containing depleted uranium (DU) is very different. DU is very heavy and very hard, so it does more damage in the simple way that heavy and hard things always do. They are hard to stop, and they pierce armour. DU is used to make bullets and shells. In this case the DU is the core of the shell; in simple terms it is the shell - it's not just the pointy tip. DU is also pyrophoric, it burns easily at room temperature, and it burns and explodes once inside its target. This leaves behind the infamous radioactive DU dust that is of great concern. DU is also (alledgedly?) used in the casing for smart bombs, cruise missiles, and perhaps other weapons. Note that DU weapons do not release energy from the nucleus. Their extraordinary effectiveness comes from their kinetic energy (via their heaviness and high speed), and from chemical energy released in self-burning or by conventional chemical explosives. So DU weapons are clearly not nuclear weapons in the usual sense.

Is it therefore incorrect to say that DU weapons are nuclear weapons? I would "yes, it is incorrect" simply because DU weapons release essentially no nuclear energy when used, and no nuclear processes take place during that time. It's perhaps possible to make the opposite case because DU weapons leave behind lots of uranium (obviously!), and this is radioactive. But I think that's pushing semantics to the limit.

DU is also chemically toxic, and I must admit that I don't know whether the toxicity or radioactive danger is worse. I would guess there are experts reading this who are cringing at my naive attempts to explain all this.

Where did you get the birth-defect figure of 67%? I Googled for a while but the highest figure I found was 3%. Perhaps I was looking in the wrong place.

Also, what is the justification for your claim that "in Iraq the depleted uranium radiation equals that of 250,000 Nagasaki bombs"? I'm sure that that the explosive power was nowhere near that level, and you are clearly not claiming that anyway. It's also clear that the amount of DU used in Iraq is far higher than the 64kg of enriched uranium used in the Hiroshima bomb. Perhaps you are claiming that about 15,000 tonnes of DU were used in weapons in Iraq - that's roughly 250,000 times as much uranium as in the Hiroshima bomb. (The Nagasaki bomb was plutonium-based.) But that's not the same thing. Uranium 238 has a half-life of nearly 5 billion years so it'll be a long time before most of it emits anything! Yes, I know, that's not the point. The point is that there are pooloads of the stuff in Iraq (and elsewhere), it's a radioactive alpha-emitter and therefore very dangerous if ingested, it's chemically toxic, and it's gonna take forever to clean up the mess. In the meantime people will suffer, and some will suffer dreadfully.

DU weapons are nasty - make no mistake about it - but they ain't nuclear explosives. Have they been classified and banned as WMDs? "Yes", say many. "No", say the US military. Sigh...

Should they be banned? I like to think the world might see a way to ban them, but I can't see it happening soon. Please, please, please can we have a sensible Democrat in the White House next time?

Finally, the above is essentially a brain-dump and may contain a few errors. Feel free to point them out. I've also been lazy about quoting references. Yell if you need some.

I think a very good description, Dr. Szin. But, yes I say nuclear weapons... they are a product of the nuclear weapon and energy industry.. the waste in fact... so even worse if you ask me. Dumping our toxic waste in someone elses back garden... nasty indeed. As my description for a WMD is merely one weapon that can kill more than one person at one time...anything less is called a gun... and even those can hit more than one at one time.

We must also remember that alot of the depleted uranium has been found to be contaminated with plutonium and neptunium on a few occasions.. is it an accident or on purpose? That shouldn't matter, they shouldn't be dumping our toxic rubbish in other countries anyways.

Birth defects.. where did I get this info... books... medical journals.. web... and from people. the percentage sticks in my head from a journal which I have since dug up today since reading your post... and I was wrong for which I apologise! It was statistics from a veterans community in Mississipi... 67% of the Gulf War 1 vets newborns were born with malformations. And cases of leukemia and cancer are up 66% in Southern Iraq since the 1st Gulf War. I barely heard of the stuff till late 2000 whilst living in Slovenija, my ex boyfriend, a Yugoslav was informed by his father of the horrors unfolding at his GP practice in Sarajevo (and continue to) with the staggering prevalance of deformities, birth defects, cancer cases in relation to patients urine samples (proofs in the pudding as it were) since the blanket bombings in 1995.... and so it goes. The defects range from trisomy 31, missing limbs, missing eyes, missing heads, larger than normal heads and deformities of every sort and some pretty vile neurological damage.

Something like 200,000 (just under one third of all the veterans) GW1 veterans disabled... they weren't shot these guys or injured... what happened to them then?

As far as being classed as a WMD... refer to first paragraph. But, anyways.. when the IAEA went to Iraq in 1999/2000.. they wrote them up for their depleted uranium weapons that were in their arsenal.. but, we are fine to have it ourselves???

And.... test it in this country? Solway Firth... Cape Wrath.. between that and Gruinard Island I wonder how much we will put up with.. and don't forget the countless other weapons probably being tested by the MOD right now.... right here in Scotland.

and if anyone wants to split hairs over if it matters if people are affected by radiation or chemicals from DU munitions or nuclear explosions... split away.. no pun intended!
If you go by statistics from Nagasaki of deaths and injuries by the time THIS war and is over we'll be counting the same including long term casualties especially when our US/UK military keeps insisting it's GOOD for them and for us.

Hats off to Jim Sheridan for standing down today!

[j4bberw0ck]

by the time THIS war and is over we'll be counting the same including long term casualties especially when our US/UK military keeps insisting it's GOOD for them and for us.

The military say nothing, or very little. The politicians, on the other hand...... the military are simply doing the job they were told to do. A small point, but the devil's in the detail.......

[mareng]

On the 6th of august 1945, a boeing b29 superfortress took off from the tinian island in the pacific carrying an awesome new weapon weighing almost 10,000lbs and containing 140lbs of deadly uranium 235.
The bomb was code-named little boy, the target for the mission, hiroshima.
The bomb load was released over it's target at 0915 hrs at an altitude of 31,000 feet.
Little boy exploded 800 feet above the target with the equivalent force of 20,000 tons of t.n.t.
Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds......

Always puts a shiver down my spine listening to that.

What started out as a post from Pultneytooner, highlighting the aniversary of the Hiroshima attack and the feeling that the quote from Oppenheimer creates in people .................. developed into a "Top Trumps" of war crimes (perceived or otherwise).

He highlights one, and is immediately pounced on for not mentioning every other one - Brilliant! (for "brilliant", read - "pathetic")

I have a feeling that had the bombs not been used to end the war in the far east, then one or more would have been used subsequently as part of an escallating dispute, and that it was only the true horrors being known - that has prevented this.

Have a nice day now.

[Gleber2]

gleeber, I agree with you, and Gleber2 writes that he agrees with you, but still there is a huge disconnect between G2 and myself. Maybe it is not so much that I disagree with G2, but rather I just don’t understand.
That belief lets me at least listen to what Gleber2 has to say. I just don’t agree with his reward and punishment theory. I don’t deny the authenticity of his experience, just the interpretation of it.

A nice post Canuck, but I feel I should answer it and Gleeber's previous one.

I believe in the Law of Kharma. In this life and whatever is to come, we get what we deserve. Not what we think we deserve but what we have rightfully earned, be it good or bad. In the Christian religion, it is believed that there is a Heaven and a Hell(and a pugatory if you are the other sort of Christian) and where we end up depends how good we are in this life and whether or not we believe in Christ( The only way unto the Father is through me, even though you are black evil you can repent on Sunday and be forgiven if you believe in me). The Muslims are told they will go to Paradise if they obey the Mullahs and keep Allah's laws as laid down by Mohammed. I could go on but I think that I have said enough to indicate that every religion, belief or faith dangles their own carrot and makes their own promises about the rewards of being faithful.. I do not believe in the Christian mythos or any other religious dogma purveyed by books, prophets and preachers.
My own belief in the Law of Kharma calls for me to actually live the laws of Christ without believing the religious aspect. So many Christians are ever so holy but are not practising the teachings of Jesus. He who has raised his intellectual understanding to the point where he goes beyond the Bible and takes the commandaments a little bit more seriously realises that Thou Shalt Not Kill covers all living creatures not just fellow man. He has a cleaner kharma than he who kills anything he pleases except humans. 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you' is common sense. How many religious people actually practise this in day to day life? The hypocrisy of religion, in my book, can never provide a gateway to paradise even if that paradise exists. My own beliefs have changed with the years and the experiences of what could be termed a strange lifetime and I have changed with these changes. To me it does not matter what happens after death but I will hedge my bets by deliberately keeping my kharmic debt to a minimum just in case.
I don't need a religion or faith to do this. I cannot admit, even at my lowest moments, that there is no point to life on Earth and I have come to believe that this life is one of many on a path to enlightenment and it is what we achieve in our search for higher meaning which is the point of life. We all start with the same bag of tools and the same book of rules. It is what we do with them that decides where we go when we croak. Back on the Wheel to try again or on to the next stage.

As far as the gloom and doom aspects of this thread are concerned. We are in the midst of unprecedented climate change brought on by our rampant consumerism. We cannot repair this. We have created holes in the ozone layer. We cannot repair this. Our atmosphere is getting more polluted by the minute. We cannot repair this. More and more volcanoes are showing signs of erruption. We cannot control this. The sea is a chemical soup. We cannot stop it. We are in danger of nuclear war. We could stop it but some nations are too crazy to even try to stop it. We have more starving, lost people than at any time in our history. Who has really tried to stop it? We have Aids and other diseases almost endemic. We seem incapable of stopping it. We have destroyed the land by over fertilising it in the name of greed, not nescessity and we are destroying the rain forests which are our air purifiers..
I am sure that if I wanted to, I could extend this list for a long time. My point is that the ecosystem that sustains life on Earth appears to be self healing but we have, in my opinion, pushed the limits of that process and we now expect miracles to ensure our future. We are pollutung and raping the planet at an unprecedented rate and there is a limit to the bashing that any system can take before it collapses. It will not need an atomic holocaust to destroy life on Earth. The inate goodness of humanity maybe a factor in your thinking, Canuck, but I am afraid I lost faith in the human race a long time ago.
I believe that it is too late for we humans to do anything to avert the impending disaster and all I can do is to make sure that my Kharmic debt is low enough to ensure my personal survival into the next stage of existance. If all my beliefs are bunkum then when I die I will be dead and won't care if I am right or wrong. If I am right?????

[Blazing Sporrans]

Gleber, while I don't always agree with everything you post (such is the way of life), I have to say that your last entry was as heartfelt and honest a posting as I've ever seen on here and would be a fitting epitaph for anyone with a caring bone in their body. You are due much respect for that.

[Gleber2]

Gleber, while I don't always agree with everything you post (such is the way of life), I have to say that your last entry was as heartfelt and honest a posting as I've ever seen on here and would be a fitting epitaph for anyone with a caring bone in their body. You are due much respect for that.

Thanks. .......

[canuck]

Gleber2, I too thank you for what you have written. You know that I do not agree with it all, but I respect the concerns you have raised and pretty much agree with you on them.

[pultneytooner]

What started out as a post from Pultneytooner, highlighting the aniversary of the Hiroshima attack and the feeling that the quote from Oppenheimer creates in people .................. developed into a "Top Trumps" of war crimes (perceived or otherwise).

He highlights one, and is immediately pounced on for not mentioning every other one - Brilliant! (for "brilliant", read - "pathetic")

I have a feeling that had the bombs not been used to end the war in the far east, then one or more would have been used subsequently as part of an escallating dispute, and that it was only the true horrors being known - that has prevented this.

Have a nice day now.

That's exactly the way I felt at the start of this thread,made feel guilty for not mentioning every other atrocity commited by mankind.
Regarding the quote from openhiemer, you are exactly right, I was trying to convey my feelingsof dread when I realise the truth of his quote, hiroshima or not.

[sjwahwah]

That's exactly the way I felt at the start of this thread,made feel guilty for not mentioning every other atrocity commitedby mankind.

Well... i thought it was a good thread & and a well thought out post... afterall it wasn't a thread called "Every atrocity commited by mankind."

[pultneytooner]

Well... i thought it was a good thread & and a well thought out post... afterall it wasn't a thread called "Every atrocity commited by mankind."

Precisely sjwahwah, but as you can see from the first few posts, i was indeed pounced upon as being seemingly unpatriotic so for not mentioning japanese atrocities.
Which seemed to me as for the sins of their armies they deserved everything they got.

[crayola]

Thank you for your concern. What a lovely start to the morning! Someone who cares!

You are very welcome. I specialise in helping those most in need.

Sorry. Actually I was referring to the experience of finding oneself in a job, and marginalised in some way - and of dealing with it. Oh rats, there's that expression again. Terribly sorry. Deep breathing, all together now, one................ two..................

I can recomend some herbal homopathic remedies which will help with your breathing exercises.

The same for you gleber2. You know your kharma thing doesn't hold any candles to me but there are homopathic remedies to help you cope with fear of the future and to put your thoughts back in positive balance. You need to let good thoughts wash out those negatives ones and put your kharma back on track.

what's happened to sjwahwah? What did she do to be put in the Orger jail? Hold on in there hon, there's life after it.

[j4bberw0ck]

You are very welcome. I specialise in helping those most in need.

Excellent, crayola! Nicely done. Physician, heal thyself...........

I can recomend some herbal homopathic remedies which will help with your breathing exercises.

You must excuse me here but do you mean homopathic (a word which the dictionary unaccountably fails to include but presumably has to do with killing people), or homeopathic (where the increasing dilution of a substance increases its efficacy, to the point presumably where none of it at all is infinitely efficacious?)

[MadPict]

You must excuse me here but do you mean homopathic (a word which the dictionary unaccountably fails to include but presumably has to do with killing people)...

[crayola]

Excellent, crayola! Nicely done. Physician, heal thyself...........

Thank you. I do consider myself to be a bit of a physician and I start the second year of my course next week.

You must excuse me here but do you mean homopathic (a word which the dictionary unaccountably fails to include but presumably has to do with killing people), or homeopathic (where the increasing dilution of a substance increases its efficacy, to the point presumably where none of it at all is infinitely efficacious?)

That's right, homeopathic. Once the substance is sufficiently pure its healing powers are supposed to be unlimited. They claim removal of all physical traces allows to connect to the cosmic consciousness and tap into its infinite healing powers. I'm not sure I believe that, especially the astral plane explanation, but my teacher is an MD from Baltimore and she thinks that's how it works. I think more research is needed here.

[MadPict]

I'm not sure I believe that, especially the astral plane explanation...

Let's hope they don't have baggage restrictions on those flights.....

[Chobbersjnr]

The same for you gleber2. You know your kharma thing doesn't hold any candles to me but there are homopathic remedies to help you cope with fear of the future and to put your thoughts back in positive balance. You need to let good thoughts wash out those negatives ones and put your kharma back on track.
it.

I must point out here and now that I posted this when Chobbersjnr was loggedin but I am not he, I am Gleber2.
There's a word for your babble lassie, but if I use it I will get banned. You have the temerity to preach at people after a mere course in the subject of healing and your words are empty vessels which carry no weight. Another five to ten years under a real master and you might learn enough humility to realise that you know nothing. Then you might begin to learn.